Now, Parsis take conservatism debate to Facebook

“You, Parsis, have a great responsibility to carry your faith to the next generation safely. But it’s hard to stick by these rules…Most young people would get frustrated by them and some may even leave the faith because of this,” reads a comment by a Pakistani on a Facebook group, Parsi Against Conservatism (PAC).

By Ashutosh Shukla / DNA

Against the backdrop of the Bombay Parsi Punchayet’s (BPP) decision to bar two Parsi priests from entering fire temples and Towers of Silence, the PAC has escalated the debate on conversions and conservatism in the community. Parsis are openly sharing their views as the dwindling community raises questions about its ‘universality’.

Started in mid-July this year by two Parsi sisters, Camille and Zeenia Framroze who live in the US and Toronto, the group already has over 1,400 members. This is their second initiative after an online signature campaign in support of the two banned priests, Khushroo Madon and Framroze Mirza.

The sisters have written on Facebook: “Their only crime has been the performance of the navjote ceremony and after-death prayers of children from mixed marriages. Prominent members of our community have chosen to defend these two priests and what they stand for. Though we are not associated with them, we support their stance.”

Talking about the idea of such a group, they state: “We are two Parsi girls, aged 17 and 20, and we find the stance of the Bombay Parsi Punchayet unacceptable. Not for personal or selfish reasons; we are the daughters of two Parsi parents. But we are offended by this exclusive attitude and rigid intolerance. We believe that if either parent is Parsi, the children have the right to be inducted and accepted into our religion.”

They say children of mixed marriage should have the option of choosing which religion he/she wants to practise. “We are here to seek support from people in the community to fight ultra-orthodoxy and inequality within our community,” they have written.

A comment by one Vispy Wadia says, “It is not restricted to people who believe in only one kind of view. It is nice that it is open to all views, and we throw an open challenge to views held by other people. It helps people see the truth and what the religion stood for.”

  • Ervad Hoshang J. Bhadha Ph.D.

    Dear Friends,
    These sisters are obviously one of those unfortunate ones born by mixed parents. Not their fault. But they should have a reasonable views on on something that is not human-made or because of human choice. Religion is for divine composition and spiritual reasons and its ultimate outcome is not for human physical needs and aspirations. So why struggle for or claim its rights and possession? Neither it has anything to do with definition of Truth as define by Law or human. What may seem justified by human law may not be acceptable by religious laws that are invisible and the result is not material or visible in nature. It has nothing to do with your choice, human terms like inequality or discrimination. It would be discrimination to stop anybody to enter Golden Temple (Sikhism) with any dress code with uncovered head with sshoes on then why not Parsees or any Sikhs and others who visit Gurudhwara has to follow those rules? People don’t find discrimination, express their views or choose the option as per these Sisters to enter Gurudhwara and any such places? Simply becasue their following such practice is beyond physical needs and aspirtions and expectations. Then why rais such issues for our Religion.

    As per the author/ these sisters views are “They say children of mixed marriage should have the option of choosing which religion he/she wants to practise. “We are here to seek support from people in the community to fight ultra-orthodoxy and inequality within our community,” ……..Who gives them authority to Choose an option for selecting religion? Religion is not a college course that you can claim your right to choose as you like. Leave religion aside and do not claim your right on something that is NOT human-made or for your physical needs. Respect and beawre of the spiritual force in nature that is affecting your life. Right & Wrong is define by religion and not by human to practice the laws of religion. Do not try to enforce your human justification, Freedom of Choice and Human Rights issues for practicing Religious Laws. Getting married outside or against the religious laws and forces in the nature was your choice. You have to accept its outcome and prepare to give-up your right on those forces and continue your journey with your hiuman choices if you so desire. When you made those human choices you never thought of consulting or following those spiritual laws and duties towards your family then why claim to own those after finding its negative outcomes?

  • barialaw

    Type your comment here…well it is about time. this is a philosphy and faith. it is outrageous that you can restrict entrance so to speak, to any philosophical set of thoughts or faith. this cant be restricted ethnically. there is no such thing as ethnic purity. indian parsis have some, some little indian admixture in them. how do you think the jews are thriving? by refusing any conversion, or by actively having intermarried members induct their children into the faith. their ultraorthodox are actively trying to have more children to foster the faith. 11 million and counting, hello out there!!!
    you wont lose the faith, your purity, or anything by this. and the children of non ethnic parsi or Z. iranis are also welcome to this faith and philosphy. please dear Ahura Mazda, do not let the respected BPP, who did so much charity and good work in the past, make our faith extinct due to high intermarriage rate, and refusal to open up. let our numbers being to grow now by forward thinking. our faith needs this break.

  • piloo_2

    Er.Bhadhaji,
    You flaunt your PhD but you do not seem to read simple English written here.
    You say ‘These sisters are obviously one of those unfortunate ones born by mixed parents”
    I am, certain you would not have made this blunder had you taken pains to read the write up carefully.In para 4, it has been clarified by these two youngsters that ‘ we are the daughters of two Parsi parents. But we are offended by this exclusive attitude and rigid intolerance. ‘
    If PhD’s overlook to read the contents as they are, then the inference is that emotions predominate reasoning.

  • piloo_2

    I stand corrected. Not emotions but prejudice and bigotry predominate over reasoning and facts.

  • piloo_2

    Any wonder that our priestly class do not receive respect and reverence due to their intemperate/offensive utterances regardless of facts.

  • phiroze

    While Ervard Bhada has erred in noting that the sisters were born of non Parsi parents, he does make a valid point in that once a person makes a choice then they should be ready face the consequences of the same. They cannot eat the cake and keep it too. When you live in a society you have to follow all the rules and if you don’t like the rules you may leave and give up on the previleges you enjoyed when you were a part of that society.

  • piloo_2

    Great men never apologize for their mistakes and blunders and so how can Er. Bhadha. PhD? As the Bard of Avon said: Some are Born Great, some achieve greatness and others have greatness thrust upon them. (By suffixing qualification to create an impression).
    Yet we have self appointed spokesman like’ Phiroze’ always willing to add adjectives and words like VALID without anybody commenting on the text of Er. Bhadha, PhD’s message As was asked some time back, Er. H. Bhadha, PhD has yet to reply the subject of his thesis for his doctorate.
    May be Phiroze can clarify on Er. H Bhadha PhD’s behalf.

  • phiroze

    piloo,
    I cannot comment on others PhD thesis nor apologize on their behalf without knowing that person but will most certainly put forth my views and add any adjectives I see fit to what is acceptable to me from what he has said. If it makes the message more clear so be it.

  • barakaga

    Zoroaster had three sons, Isat Vastar, Uruvat-Nara and Hvare Ci?ra three daughters, Freni, Pourucista and Triti. His wife, children and a cousin named Maidhyoimangha, were his first CONVERTS after his illumination from Ahura Mazda at age 30. According to Yasnas 5 & 105, Zoroaster prayed to Anahita for the CONVERSION of King Vištaspa.

    The “Parsee Ayatollahs” should condemn Prophet Zarathustra for carrying out conversion activities.

    According to the Parsi Darwins, there were 3 Apes from which man originated. One Ape was the Parsi-Zoroastrian Ape from which Parsi Zoroastrians evolved (without conversion), the other the Irani-Zoroastrian Ape (from which Irani Zoroastrians evolved without conversion) and the third was the “Parjat” Ape, from which the adherents of all other faiths evolved.

    Do the Parsi Ayatollahs know that Zoroastrianism is referred to as “reformed Vedism”. Sanskrit Asura became the Avestan Ahura. Anahita is an Armenian diety.

  • Geve Narielwalla

    Above comment by Barak Aga, I see he has a rather long history of twisting things to denigrate and run down Parsis.

    He could easily have championed Parsis instead of the analogy of the original 3 apes!

    IF ZARATHUSHTRA PRAYED FOR THE CONVERSION OF VISHTASPA, IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD AS CONVERSION TO HIS REFORMED MAZDAYASNIAN RELIGION.

    Even if seen as a conversion, what has that to do with how Parsi Zoroastrian religious beliefs have evolved. They did not fall out of thin air yesterday or the day before, they evolved out of natural selection and circumstances.

    How has this site allowed Barak Aga so much irresponsible freedom……..3 apes of parsi Darwins! Please stop this tirade, Barak.

    Geve Nariewalla

  • Phiroze

    Dear Mr. Geve Narielwalla,
    Thank you for once again for exposing the nefarious activities of barak. Besides him Behram Aga, Farzana cooper, Rathestar hansotia, zarathustra zarthosti, also are part of the same group. Request you to also join the Zoroastrian group on facebook where I have been exposing their anti Parsi activities.

  • Rathestar.

    @Phiroze,
    I am happy to note that activities of sensible persons has perturbed you. I do not have habit of using adjectives like ‘nefarious’ against others a word used by you. It is clear that you believe in imposing your beliefs on others as though they alone are ‘authentic’.
    On my part, I have not said anything against Mr. Narielwalla nor has he commented against me. For that reason I respect this gentleman Mr. Narielwalla for he is entitled to his views.
    Persons like me have taken recourse to FaceBook over which bigots and fundamentalists have NO CENSORSHIP CONTROL unlike a Weakly paper hijacked by means of money power. If rational persons had been allowed freedom of expression in the Press, they would not have had any reason to avail of social networking site, which has a larger viewership base.Censorship is one thing and supressing contrary views is different. The latter arises from fear factor of inability to adapt to changed circumstances.
    Your discomfiture amuses me because by writing on this portalabout me, you are giving persons like me free publicity.
    Thank you very much.

  • Rathestar.

    @Phiroze,
    If my memory serves me correct, before you appeared on the scene as Phiroze on Parsi Khabar, there were two or three paper tigers who mocked at realistic and rational Zoroastrian Parsees.like me. These three have gone into oblivion licking their wounds after bragging endlessly abour their pet Vulture Aviary Project. They are now too shy to pen amy posts in their own names. I am not mentioning their names to spare them further embarassment.

  • Piloo.

    Phirozebhai,
    Can you enlighten us on the following:-.
    In ancient times, were there Bells of Brass in the Fire Temples .? Were there foundries to make Bells. Or have we aped /adopted custom of Bells from Hindus & Christians LATER ON?
    In ancient times i.e. in time of Prophet was there Jantar to make / weave Kustis?
    And again in time of Zoroaster was there a spinning Jenny, let alone Tata Mill for Mull Mull?
    HAVE WE NOT CHANGED WITH TIMES.? Though I may be incorrect, I assume you are a Priest. As per tenets a priest is not supposed to Shave but grow a beard and have his head covered at all times. Your handsome photo on FaceBook shows you to be clean shaven and without the head covered. Good to see that you are progressive. Learn to appreciate that concept of change and modification of way of life differs from individual to individual and your concept or my concept may differ but that does not make either me or you more spiritual minded or religious than others.
    In your post of 11th November 2010, you have stated “When you live in a society you have to follow all the rules and if you don’t like the rules you may leave and give up on the previleges you enjoyed when you were a part of that society.”
    Sociology teaches us that men has evolved over a time period and it is individual that makes up for Society. Who are you or Bhadha to pontificate?
    Er. Bhadha has wisely refrained from answering my post of 1st Nov 2010 for he does not want to admit his mistake of calling two girls born out of Parsee parents as ‘These sisters are obviously one of those unfortunate ones born by mixed parents’ Only genuine Scholars and great men have courage to admit their errors.
    As for your recent post of to day urging Narielwalla to join Face Book , I admire the same and I too will be joining this FaceBook to confront hypocrisy.

  • Behroze.

    To,
    Phiroze and those likeminded like him,if ANY.
    Here I agree in toto with Rathestar,
    Total blackout of dissenting opinions of those opposed to BPP /WAPIZ and double dealer High Priests etc, left the dissenters with no option but to reach out to FaceBook to make their voice heard and heard it is by a larger audience around the world and this thinking voice is not confined to Mumbai, Surat, Navsari,Poona, Valsad and moffusil towns and hamlets. One cannot curb freedom of thought and expression by recruting a puppet Editor in a print media. Fortunately, the Moderator on Face Book is not on the pay rolls of many masters. I may add that I too am on FaceBook to combat dhongees. The voice of true Zoroastrians on Face Book and in Parsiana is sending shivers in the spines of hoodlums claiming to be self styled saviours of our Community.No person has exclusive ownership rights to any Religion.More harm has been done to our faith by persons who claim to have right to expect others to toe their dictates then by those wrongly referred to as REFORMISTS.
    BTW just to remind you Phiroze, that some very pertinent questions have made by Behram Aga & Barak vide their posts dated the 1st and 2nd ultimo respectively on the topic “Sanjan Day Celebrated amidst controversy” which are ADDRESSED SPECIFICALLY TO YOU TO WHICH YOU HAVE NOT OFFERED REPLIES EVEN AFTER MORE THAN FORTY DAYS. So much for your tall claim to ‘expose’ others.

  • Phiroze

    Dear Rathestar Hansotia,
    Even on facebook I have been opposing your and the gang’s tirade against Parsis. There also I have been saying that if you find or have problems with Parsis and their traditions nobody has held on to you. You are free to do as you wish. Nothing is being imposed on you. Parsis are asking the same from you. Hope this improves the clarity of your beliefs. If anybody does impose on you let me know, I shall try to show you an alternative. In case you do not know there are many newspapers circulated in mumbai besides the only one weakly you seem to know of. You are always welcome. I too am glad that I have been able to publisize your gangs anti Parsi activities on the net.

  • Phiroze

    Piloobhai/behn,
    Who’s stopping you from change. Parctice what you preach. Show the world that what you are doing is right. All will follow.
    Yes I am a non practising priest ie it is not my profession altough my dad and grand dad were full time priests and panthakis. I think yu have got the tenets about not allowed to shave wrong. What I have been told is since one had to undergo two baths after cutting nails or hair they preferrred not shaving daily. Since I am not a practicing priest hope you will forgive me for not covering my head. Looking forward to SEEING you on fb.

  • Rathestar.

    You Phiroze are a confused person. The ‘gang’ you have referred to are Parsees by birth and descent. So how can they be against Parsees .i.e. against themselves.? The said ‘gang’ is agitating for their legitimate rights as Parsees and your remark “Parsis are asking the same from you” implies that you have become a self appointed spokesperson on behalf of ALL Parsees.Since you not a person vested with any legitimate authority, it would be a waste of time discusing this topic.
    @Behroze: I am glad at your ability to point out the silence of this knowall Phiroze for 40 days on the issue of ‘Sanjan Day Celebrated amidst controversy’ Good work.

  • Raj Aryaa

    Hi All First of all Im a non parsee but in love with teh community and what the community has done for the country and selflessly. Im a Hindu bhramin and very much believe Ahura Mazda. I so much agree with piloo and with great respect to Mr.Phiroze I understand that u have a view point and that u being a priest want to implement certain things that are as per religious texts. I just have one question to you SIR, How would you tackle the diminishing number of the vibrant community and if on facebook you prove a certain gang wrong what would be the end result. Will they be thrown out of the religion. Coz u cannot get into the mind of every individual to prove their thoughts wrong. Now the good word should be spread. If you want such a beautiful religion just to be kept to your gud self. As a matter of fact the price that you will have to pay would be the extinction of a community that India needs forever. And yes i know conversion happens outside INDIA…but here its not about conversion but opening your arms to all. to be enlightened. The religion show spread and only then will it grow. This is a view if Im offending you Mr. Phiroze Im highly sorry because to you I might be an outsider but to the lord Im sure Im not. The whole point is you might win a facebook page but in the process you would loose your fellow parsees who believe in his holiness but with liberal views. Just one thing to all of you….India needs the community. with loads of love….

  • Phiroze

    Mr. Raj Aryaa,

    Glad to know that you believe in Ahura Mazda. As I say anyone can be a Zoroastrian but entry to Parsis religious institutions is restricted to Parsis. I think the liberals need to learn to coexists with traditionals.

  • Byram Sidhwa

    Phiroze here exemplifies concept of ONE WAY STREET. He pompously states that “I think the liberals need to learn to coexists with traditionals” but does NOT BELIEVE THAT HIS COTERIE OF TRADITIONALISTS HAVE ANYTHING TO LEARN TO COEXISTS WITH LIBERALS. This is a typical case of Head I win, Tails you lose.Like Neros, these “Traditionalists” want to preside on decimation of the community.They asume that Trust properties and Fire Temples were ‘earmarked’ for likes of their brand of false beliefs,double standards, fundamentalism and bigotism.

  • Barak Aga

    .
    Further to Miss Piloo’s excellent observations.
    A Fire Temple in Secunderabad named after one Mr. Vicaji has won a heritage structure award from INTACH.

    The citation states that the Fire Temple’s architecture / design has used ”Classical European elements”.

  • Farsak Ashli

    Those who cannot read the writings on the Wall are short sighted. Visionaries never talk in terms of me / ours and you /yours. Vocabulary of visionaries is US.

  • Zarathustra Zarthosti

    Mr. Phiroze

    Even if you invite the pope’s of our religion they to will not be able to help you. As what we have being saying is the truth that no one can prove otherwise. Some people of our community have been passing on the biggest lies by keeping quite when asked questions regarding matters like Dokma, about interfaith married couples and their children and even conversion.

    You have not on a single post talked about any scriptural evidence instead have resorted to blabbering around on irrelavent topics and name call, thats it. This is how you will prove us wrong and expose us. Our friend Mr. Meheryar Rivetna has said “What is ZZ doing that is so nefarious that one would want to expose him? And expose what? His quest to save the religion? Go ahead! .” , and also I provided you enough info to dig out my identity but still no hope for you. What is that Meheryar doing so drifferent from all that of whose names are provided by you in your above post. Are you scared to mention his name as you had to apologise to him last week. Meheryar hope you are reading this and I would appreciate if you comment here too.

    Mr. Phiroze Keep your advice to yourself. Don’t advice what other must do, built Fire temples and institutes and more, The simple fact is that you people have a problem with people like Mrs Meher Master Moos who was doing the Navar ceremony of the Russian man at her private property and was attacked by some well known Gondas of our community. You had repeatedly said that thing will get messier Ha what a joke. Here you are begging people to join you to answer on behalf of you since you have non. Only a single lady9Mrs. Roshni Maloo D’souza with solid determination made all the rogues run for safety.

    You have had the audacity to even state that “I have and will always say that INDIAN PARSI ZOROASTRIAN RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS are private buildings with right to admission RESERVED AND RESTRICTED. Not even ZARATHUSTRA can do anything about it “. Yes it is because of people like you that we downward spiral as you’ll have no respect for our beloved Prophet forget anyone else. You said “DO YOUR OWN THING IN YOUR OWN INSTITUTIONS. Build them in US, UK, Russia and practice what you preach.” My question to you is does India belong to you or the BPP if so let us know. For you info we are already in a process of building our institute and that also in India. That doesn’t mean that we have given into your demands and that anyone who wishes to go to the fire temple of choice will not. By the way recently their was a wedding reception at Allbess baug where the Groom was a Hindu boy with a Parsi mother marring a Parsi girl, you and all the saver’s of our religion did not go to save this baug from being desecrated.

    Slowly but surely people are coming out in the open and saying the truth. Recently one of our Vada Dasturji in his interview has put it out removing bluff from few lies which were spread by many. I provide the link to that http://issuu.com/yazdi/docs/fall_september_2010 Page no. 124 & 125. Vada Dasturji Khursheed speaks out.

    As I said earlier, We all have given you much more then just evidence from our scriptures and works of some great people of their times and even todays times. But if one does not want to choose the correct path no one can help. It is said “As one can drag a donkey to the river but can’t make him drink from it”. It goes as a saying and no offence to anyone.

    I am also providing the link of the discussion board on FB for all to see how much water had gone down the drain and join if some has to put up something out there. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2204577503&topic=17896
    Sorry but People with Facebook account only can access it.

    KHSHNAOTHRE AHURAHE MAZDAO

  • Barak Aga

    .
    “When you live in a society you have to follow all the rules and if you don’t like the rules you may leave and give up on the previleges you enjoyed when you were a part of that society.”

    1) Who makes these rules?

    2) Those making the rules are the ones to breach them.

    Live up to the standards that you have set for others.

    Give up the privileges that you enjoy by living in subsidised housing generously provided by the Tatas and the Wadias.

    Give up your jobs in companies run by these families.

    Don’t associate Mr. J. R. D. Tata with the “Parsi” community on your website, (aapro J. R. D.) as his navjote was not performed, and his mother was French.

  • Rathestar.

    ZZ,
    By giving the link, you have done immense service.This exposes the fake orthodox particularly WAPIZ brand who have misused money power to unleash one sided propoaganda and have to a large extent even succeded in their aim of brainwashing the masses.

  • Raj Aryaa

    @Zarathustra Zarthosti …hey i guess all ur info is awesum and commendable….Gud work…well the truth stays we need the parsees coz India needs their selflessness their food…and so much…We need the good word to be spread…
    @Mr.Phiroze…..the point is liberals have coexisted with traditionalists for ever….thats why even today non parsees are not allowed into a fire temple in India where as in Iran everyone is allowed…the point is you can stick to your traditions but when those traditions are a barrier to the religion its like suffocation and u need to ease that with little fresh air to survive….I read somewhere that the no of priests in the community are very small and u come from the family of Dasturji…the community needs you still why are u a non practising priest. with all due respect the income in the traditional profession is small not enuf…so u gave up on traditional profession for a decent lifestyle….which is the first rule of SURVIVAL…nothing wrong…I m not here to prove you wrong but because of a very close association and immense love for the parsees . The point is the community needs to survive little bit of fresh laws cannot harm a religion that has survives thousands of years. the point is EVOLVE. Rest is on you to tthink you might win this war of words but in all honestly pls think its ur sacrifice of adamant thoughts that can help save the community. Rest Im sure you with all honestly will be able to connect with the lord to get the right answer. Do it not to win this debate but the graciousness that the lors has showered on u and your family. As far as the fire temple reserved for parsees well its not so in iran. You might stop me from visiting it but the lord has always kept it open…think Y? Answer Honestly wel For me its simple the lord does not see his followers any different…

  • Phiroze

    zz, I am not interested in your identity nor in knowing what your father did. It is you who had the audacity to say two months back and I quote “Also skipped to put in this and trust me when I say this not boosting (sic) bring my true identity out (sic) will only bring shame to the orthodox and discomfort to my family (sic again). I haven’t stopped laughing since. If you are really all that you say you are why do you keep running to the advertising council or the MD of TOI. What was the outcome of your running around?. As for Meheryar I shall let him decide how he wants to take this forward.

    Glad to know that you have accepted my advice and started building your institute or as my friend said “club” in India. Let me cut the ribbon to your club when it is ready. That should bring an end to your nefarious activities. You did not get it when I said ” not even Zarathustra (ie you) can do anything about it. When referring to the prophet I write Zarathustra Spitma since the time you decided to impersonate Him. By the way there is a huge difference between Allbless baug and a fire temple moron.

    ATHA ZAMYAT YATHA AFRINAMI

  • Farsak Ashli

    Moderator,
    Is the use of word MORON by Phiroze against another person in conformity with the GUIDELINES of your blog?. Does this name calliing not tantamount to “making
    personal statement and remarks about the other’s knowledge, intellect or personal life”.?
    As far as I can recollect , in my post dated the 15th Feb what I has originally posted was “Those who cannot read the writings on the Wall are short sighted or MORONS. My remark was general and nor specific against any other person. Yet the words “or Morons” was deleted. I am not questioning your authority or discretion but just pointing out the anomaly.
    Thnx

  • http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/ arzan sam wadia

    Farsak

    OK, noted. I removed the term.

    Is that really the issue here at hand ? Don’t we have larger issues to discuss here, than the one you raise ?

  • Farsak Ashli

    Arzan,
    Apologies from my side since u sound offended in my pointing out the anomaly. If the word in question was not an ‘issue’ then the same should not have been edited/removed from my earlier post as well.Thats my feeling.
    Indeed, WE DO HAVE LARGER ISSUES HERE TO DISCUSS AND EVEN HOLD DIVERGENT OPINIONS WITHOUT RESORTING TO HURLING UNSAVOURY ADJECTIVES.AGAINST SPECIFIC PERSONS..
    MY SUGGESTION IS THAT THE FULL ARTICLE/INTERVIEW AS APPEARING ON http://issuu.com/yazdi/docs/fall_september_2010 be reproduced on this Blog for open debate on what the High Priest from Udwada has stated. This would go a long way in resolving many contentious issues which have been raised by fundamentalists brigade.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Mr. Aryaa,

    Your posts are a breath of fresh air in the midst of some of the garbage floating around. I have read with much interest what you have written and want to thank you for what you have said. Yes, sir, you are right when you say man may keep the doors of our temples shut to some people while hiding behind a deed not worth the paper it’s written on, but the lord does keep it open for all. It’s a shame that a man such as yourself who appreciates and admires our faith and with so much humility and kindness that shows through your writing would be barred from entering our house of worship; while those born in the faith, but possessing false pride, arrogance, contempt, and all other characteristics diametrically opposed to the teachings of our great prophet could walk in the same temple unfettered. How displeased Zarathustra must be not to mention Ahura Mazda’s disappointment with our behavior.

    Mr. Aryaa, you are also right in expressing the need for us Zoroastrians to look at our traditions that pose a barrier to our survival. There is no basis for the traditions discussed on these sites in our religion. It is only fear of change that makes some of us adhere to meaningless traditions. To survive, any species has to evolve, it has to change, it has to adapt to a changing environment or it will perish; my die-hard conservative friends are unable to grasp this basic natural law. What they cannot understand is that in their warped way of trying to preserve the faith, they are killing it.

    Nowhere in our scriptures is conversion disallowed. In fact, it is encouraged. This fact has been presented to the other side; they, on the other hand, have not provided any evidence that conversion is proscribed in Zoroastrianism.

    Mr. Aryaa, thank you again for your wonderful comments. I hope your love for us Parsis will not wane. Believe me, there are still some sensible Parsis left in this world.

  • Piloo

    I fully endorse the request made by Farsak and urge the Portal to place the relative interview appearing in Fezna Journal of Fall 2010 for the contents to be known by the community in India and then deliberate the contents.
    Those who talk every fortnight about heeding the advice of high priests have deliberately blacked out this interview of a Vada Dastur which is an honest eye opener.

  • Zarathustra Zarthosti

    HA HA HA ………

    Dear Mr. Phiroze

    You are doing a wonderful job of exposing, but who(?) that is important. Its YOURSELF ! The more you open your mouth the more its gonna stink and the more people will see through you.

    There is druj deep right into your molecular level on one hand time and again you have been harping on revealing my identity and now all of sudden you are not interested ha ha ha what a joke. Meheryar your spanking has finally worked I think. I will not repeat what I have put up earlier regarding my Id you can go back and check my past post regarding it and still you miss something I am not going to baby sit you.

    It was you on FB who said Agyaries were private clubs and we will restrict entries to whoever we want, it was not Meheryar. The statement by you that “I have and will always say that INDIAN PARSI ZOROASTRIAN RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS are private buildings with right to admission RESERVED AND RESTRICTED. Not even ZARATHUSTRA can do anything about it “, you like a small child with a BIG ego have tried to make my user ID look the smallest (zz) and here you are saying that you were refering to me in the above statement, what lies. You would write as zz and not Zarathustra.

    How do you know whether we are coming up with an Allbless baug and not an Fire temple. Keep your thinking to yourself as I sugested to you earlier. Dear, I have already given you an invitation for a bigger occassion as repeatedly demanded by you and I invite you for even this function whenever it happens. No one will stop you and/or any Zoroastrian of the world, but still I hope you don’t get the feeling which so many people have felt when people like you stopped them from entering.

    The amount of lies about our religion your kind has been spreading has done enough damage to the community. You and all the so called saviours of our faith have not even been able to support their stand with a single strand of scriptural evidence. Come to me to discuss on this if you have anything worth or even good and true to say about it. In the past there were others from your camp who have hands down given up as they have pocketed enough lies for this life and may be next although Zoroastrianism does not believe in renicarnation, only detour striaght to hell from Chinvat bridge.

    For now I will stop with a small story for you and people like you who believe in forcing their views on others this is the reason why they get ten responces in reply of one post. Ok this is how it goes…

    “A man was sitting by a lake. He was throwing small pebbles into it from time to time. A young boy happened to cross by. He was intrigued to see that after every few minutes or so, the man would toss a pebble into the lake. The boy went up to the man and said, “Good pastime, this stone throwing, huh?” “Hmmm,” said the man. He seemed to be deep in thought and obviously did not wish to be disturbed.

    Sometime later, the man said softly, “Look at the water, it is absolutely still.”
    The boy said, “Yeah, it is.” The man tossed a pebble into the water and continued, “Only till I toss a pebble into it. Now do you see the ripples?” “Yeah,” said the boy, “they spread further and further.”

    “And soon, the water is still again,” offered the man.
    The boy said, “Sure, it becomes quiet, after a while.”
    The man continued, “What if we want to stop the ripples? The root cause of the ripples is the stone. Let’s take the stone out. Go ahead and look for it.” The boy put his hand into the water and tried to take the stone out. But he only succeeded in making more ripples. He was able to take the stone out, but the number of ripples that were made in the process were a lot more than before.

    The wise man then said, “It is not possible to stop the movement of the water once a pebble has been thrown into it. But if we can stop ourselves from throwing the pebble in the first place, the ripples can be avoided altogether!”

    “So too, it is with our minds. If a thought enters into it, it creates ripples. The only way to save the mind from getting disturbed is to block and ban the entry of every superfluous thought that could be a potential cause for disturbance. If a disturbance has entered into the mind, it will take its own time to die down. Too many conflicting thoughts just cause more and more disturbances.

    Even trying to forcibly remove the thought may further increase the turmoil in the mind. Time surely is a great healer, but prevention is always better than cure.”

    KHSHNAOTHRE AHURAHE MAZDAO

  • Phiroze

    Dear Meheryar,

    Glad to have you here. If as Raj and you say “the lord keeps it open for all” then why this insistance for entry to private institutions or clubs as you say?. besides as per zz a club is under construction somewhere in India so bear with your die hard conservative friends for a little while longer and later you all can enjoy the 5 star facilities of the said club. As my dear zz would say the donkey has finally had a drink from the river.

  • Phiroze

    Mr Aryaa,
    If you say they had coexisted then they need to relearn it. I know that the fire temples in Iran are tourists attractions and don’t think the Parsis would like that to happen here too where a lot of rituals and higher liturgical ceremonies take place regularly which no one in Iran even knows of today.

    Well it is not a crime to seek a decent lifestyle after all the sacrifices that my parents made to give me a convent education. Infact most of the people who post here have settled abroad for the same reason.

    I agree with what you say about the lord. But what you and my friend Meheryar is talking about is man made abode of the Lord. Now comes the fun part. Since it is man made, that man’s rules apply and not the scriptures. If you are really a Hindu and Brahmin as you claim but which I doubt very much, you must know the meaning of “Mano toh mein Ganga Ma hoon na mano toh sirf behta pani”. Lets meet up some day.

  • Zerxes.Dordi

    At a time, due to supression of community’s Press, when a common Parsi is denied access to facts of events,Like F Ashli, I too feel that your blog would be rendering immense service to the Community if the views expressed by Dastur Khushedji and published in FEZNA are gor displayed here on your blog.
    The Community is just fed up of WAPIZ rag which finds lower and lower depths in calumny.

  • BOMAN.

    All these while we were under the impression that all issues of fundamentalist nature were the handiwork of our shortsighted High Priests. But after reading the Interview of Dastoorji from Udwada,in FEZNA, my opinion has undergone a change. The irrelevant bigoted issues are raised not by High Priests but by politician trustees and aspiring trustees operating from F C Hall opposite Metro Adlabs. After reading candid views of this High Priest my respect for him has become multifold. We now know the culprits responsible for creating controversies.

  • http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/ arzan sam wadia
  • Barak Aga

    .
    As far as the Fire Temples in Iran are concerned, none of the paper tigers have the courage to do in Iran, what they did in India.

    They know the consequences only too well.

  • Raj Aryaa

    Mr. Phiroze
    Wel Im a Hindu and a bhramin if u doubt I cant really help that…keepin doubtin mate…what u said abt gangaji is def what I understand…gud work if u think that people vistin a fire temple is kinda a trend of tourists…..fair enuf…i guess there are other better stuffs we need to do…think and connect to your lord….Im sure u do somethin gud to the community….god bles u…

  • jai

    Hi just stumbled upon this site. I think the temple entry issue is for the parsis to decide among themselves and i would not comment on that. Temples are places of worship not tourist spots to be open to everyone. Likewise Hindu temples are for hindus.

    But i just want to say something to Raj, i hardly think parsis as a community are doing any favours to India if they do some charity. As citizens of India they must also take ownership and consider it their duty in changing indian society for the better. They’ve lived here for centuries now and if it wasn’t for India, Zoroastrianism would not even exist today after Iran was conquered by Islam. It is India more specifically Hindu India that gave them refuge and the opportunities to thrive as business people. The very survival of Zoroastrianism is i think a debt they will never be able to repay if they themselves think of themselves as non-Indian. I think they owe more to India than India owes to them. If you think they do some favour then perhaps you still think of them as Iranian outsiders too. They have their rights and duties as equal citizens of India. All of us as Indians need to help eradicate poverty from India and make it into a first world nation.

  • Raj Aryaa

    @Mr. Phiroze. One more thing the moment I would join RSS and other such gangs and condemn the living of any other non bhramin non hindu , resorting to violence because im a Higher caste Hindu and its my birth right is to dominate others India wont be a secular country and a shit place however thou insane this is important coz until such things are not done people like u need proofs…the moment u start throwing questions at someone’s identity, I get ur mindset…so with all due respect stay with ur thoughts…keep the fire temple to urself….but I only wish, not for any argument try winning a place in ur lords heart…im sure god wud only do gud to u….loads of wishes…cheers mate
    @Meheryar Rivetna and @ZZ…
    I would keep lovin the faith coz i believe in it…My association to the parsees can only go deeper….I absolutely love and nothing can change it..what phiroze has to say is his point he seems to be adamant..so let him be happy….we cant change an individuals mindset…A person who has the intellectual reasoning and understanding will first question oneself to find the correct answer….and not write anythin to support an argument…He has a point of view…So lets ignore him…and work for the community….best way out…
    .god bless

  • Raj

    @jai….buddy..the i agree that its a parsee thing to decide who shud enter …..and def not a tourist thingy…my whole point is the community is dimnishin and every religion has somethin nice to teach and should not be restricted….coz as humans religion is only a path to that one follows but religion should not go above humanity….so if there is knowledge and some thing gud to gain in any religion u shud keep the window of ur mind open…and if u think temples are only for hindus….its sad..coz be it temples or home we hindus believe athithi devo bhava..i guess every one has the right to enter a religious place but with great respect….
    Yes probably parsees have come to the country to save their religion but no one owes any one anythin in the first case…however they have done for the country more than anyone…and its not a favour they have done..they have done it selflessly with out any propaganda and have done it as a duty…I have just acknowledged it…i have never hinted it as a favour…..and if they have thrived as businessmemn its coz of they intelligence and better understanding of finance….and what debt are u speaking of….do you know that
    that the followers of Zoroastrianism…who were from Iran had their ancestors from what was called pre indo-iranian era….who moved to form persia….if they felt the threat they came back to their motherland…maan its a debate….and such things can be avoided if we do more research on teh religion….u wil understand a lot of things..It is simple its our country but ist importrant we acknowledge the presence of each other…coz it only unites us….god bless

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Mr. Jai:

    All temples are for all humans. I have been to Hindu temples many times. But that is not the purpose of my writing.

    Your derogatory remarks that Parsis are not doing any favors to India and that “…they must take ownership and consider it their duty in changing Indian society for the better” is, to put it mildly, a very ill-informed statement. Yes, if India had not given us refuge and had been intolerant of other faiths, our great religion would probably not have survived, at least in India. But the Zoroastrians, as a community, have paid their debt to India many times over. You are wrong, sir. India owes a lot to the Parsis, not the other way around. The Parsis are the nucleus of modern India. A historian once said, “India without Parsis is like an egg without a yolk.”

    The Parsis, according to estimates, are less than 0.02% of India’s population, but their contributions are out of proportion to the population. If you start with the independence movement of India, you had stalwarts like Dadabhai Naoroji, Madam Bhicaiji Cama, Sir Pherozeshah Mehta. There were many more, but these stand out supremely.
    Madam Cama gave fiery speeches in London, Cairo and Stuttgart, Germany against British imperialism in India. She was the founding member (with Shyamji Krishna Varma) of the India Home Rule Society. Her return to India was conditional upon her signing a statement that she would not participate in nationalist activities. She refused. She was the first to unfurl a prototype of the Indian flag in Stuttgart. It is on this template that the modern flag of India flutters around the world.
    Dadabhai Naoroji was the first to whisper the word “Swaraj” in the ears of Gandhi and Tilak. I don’t need to elaborate on Naoroji’s contributions as a freedom fighter. They are well known. He was dubbed “The Grand Old Man of India” for no small reason. Sir Pherozeshah Mehta was elected several times President of the Indian National Congress. Stand outside the Bombay Municipal Corporation office and you will understand more. Mahatma Gandhi has acknowledged that the contributions of Parsis to India are immeasurable.

    Let’s go to India’s industry and Parsi philantrophy. I will only mention the names Tata, Wadia and Godrej and you should make offerings to you temples in their names at least twice everyday! These were the pioneers of modern Indian industry. The Taj Mahal hotel was the creation of Jamshedji Tata. But let me remind you of other Parsi powerhouses. You may not have heard of Sir Jamshetji Jeejeebhoy, Sir Dinshaw Mehta, Sir Cowasjee Jehangir. If you have heard of them, you have conveniently chosen to forget these names. You must pass by the schools, hospitals, charitable institutions, art galleries, you name it that these giants built. Please bow your head every time you pass by these institutions. You, India, owe them a lot.

    Let us look at the armed forces. Need I remind you of India’s first and only Field Marshal Sam Maneckshaw? It is said, but for him, India would have lost the Indo-Pak war. Let’s not forget Admiral Jal Cursetji of the Indian navy and Air-Marshal Minoo Engineer, the most decorated air-marshal in Indian air force history.
    In the field of medicine Parsis have so many eminent physicians and surgeons that I’d be here all day typing their names. But I’ll just remind you of Dr. K. N. Bahadurjee who was the first Indian to obtain an M.D. from London who worked tirelessly during the plague, dying at the age of 38. Dr. Rustom Jal Vakil is recognized around the world as “the father of Indian cardiology.”

    In science, we have Dr. Homi Bhabha. India would not be in a position to dream of atomic energy, but for this great scientist. In music, we have Zubin Mehta; in sports Nari Contractor, Farokh Engineer and Polly Umrigar, a few among many, many more.

    Can you honestly still say, Mr. Jai, that the Parsis owe a debt to India? We have fulfilled our “rights and duties as equal citizens of India.” If the Parsis, in current times, appear not to be pulling their weight, perhaps it is time to look inward. When people like you and Bal Thugeray do not recognize the community’s contributions; when you wipe out our contributions from history books; when you remove the statues of great Parsis and put them in the empty cages of your pathetic zoo; when you change the names of roads commemorating great Parsis and replace them with the names of scoundrels and scalawags, what do you expect? Look inward, Mr. Jai, look inward.

    Let me just conclude with a paragraph from Cyrus Pangborn’s book: “Zoroastrianism: A Beleagured Faith.” Cyrus Pangborn is an American, a former professor at Rutgers University in New Jersey; he is not an Indian and certainly not a Parsi. Here is what he says:
    While it would be a mistake to predict that Zoroastrians will either now or always and forever “overcome,” it is not an exaggeration to insist that they possess the traits essential to doing so if they but have the courage and the will to apply them in battle. They are intelligent and they are educated. They are compassionate and altruistic. There is sincerity in their piety and reverence and a stubborn insistence that it is better to be honest and good in this world than to make their way in it by wile and cleverness. They are immensely sociable. They love sharing their good times. And they have style.

    Long may they live.

  • Zerxes.Dordi

    Raj, Jai & Z.Z.
    Is it worthwhile to waste your energies & time arguing with an individulal like Phiroze who sincerely believes that any person who does not conform to his set beliefs can not be a true Parsee Zoroastrian?. Such thinking itself demonstrates the upbringing and character of such an individual. Best course is -Just ignore.
    Thats my friendly and sincere advise. rest up to you three.

  • Jai

    Raj,
    perhaps you do need to join RSS and see for yourself what they do instead of not knowing what they do but just passing value judgments on them because you subscribe to the pseudo secular political propaganda made by the govt. Kindly do enlighten us where and when has the RSS advocated the condemning of non-brahmin Hindus? Are you even familiar with the work they do? Since you say with such conviction, and like to encourage this baseless propaganda, i would like to know this.
    RSS is perhaps the only real force on the ground fighting casteism. Boy, you really need to get out more. It seems your world view is only shaped by what you see on TV and cannot think for yourself. You need to be told by the brain-dead sold out media what to think. Next you will go on to say Hindus are terrorists and Islam is a religion of peace.

  • Phiroze

    Zerxes Dordi / Raj, u and your friends can ignore me but cannot ignore what I post.

    @ Jai, Thanks for showing Raj his place. I doubt he is a hindu/brahmin from the style he writes. Most probably he is an imposter like zz trying to pass off as a true follower of Zarathustra and a statistic/number addition to the liberal gang. As regards if India owes to Parsis or Parsis owe to India, let me assure you that we are even stevens. Parsis have and will continue give to India as much as if not more what they have taken from India.

    @ Dear Meheryar, it would be better if politics and politicians are not encouraged by you. let us try and keep this a religious / community debate. Please try to understand the consequences of your trying to play politics and communities against each other. Being settled in US you may not have to face the consequences but those of us in India may have to if you continue your ways.

  • farzana

    Raj, i agree with you… India is the ancient home of Parsis for thousands of years just as it has been for Hindus…
    Parsis were from Indo-Iranian tribes called Parsu /Parsa/Parsi of Vedic Aryan origin. Their settlements were mainly in the Uttarapada regions of Kashmir to Hindukhush. The reference of Parsus is not just in Vedas but also in various other scriptures including Mahabharata and Ramayana. ParsuRam, who held from a Parsu tribe is revered by Hindus as an avtaar of Vishnu…The Sanskrit word- Parsu is used as a verb to denote ‘closeness’…which in turn is the root of Hindi word- ‘Paas’ which means ‘near’ or ‘close by’. The reason behind this is, Parsu tribes lived very close to the region where Vedas were composed…

    Parsus were Aryans and they worshipped the same Vedic Gods- namely Indra, Mithra, Varun, Saraswati, Soma, Rudra etc…They called their worship-Yasna while Vedics called it Yagna…Even after they accepted Zoroastrianism their Gods didnot changed…They still worship-Indra as Behram Yazata, Mithra as Meher Yazata, Soma-Homa as Hormazd, and Varun as Ahura Mazda. The latter Vedic term for Ahura Mazda is ASURA MAHAT .

    The migration of Parsu tribes, Prithu-Parthavas [Parthians] to Iranic plateaus happened after the Battle of ten kings…which seeded the beginning of Persian civilization…

    According to J M Chatterjee; It is after this epic war (Mahabharat) that the imperial family of the Kurus/Purus left Indra-Prastha (Delhi), with one branch going east, establishing itself at Kausambi* (Pargiter- Ancient Indian Historical traditions, P285). The other branch proceeded west & established at Anshan, a great empire, which later came to be known as “Achaemedian Empire”, which overthrew the Medians. The most powerful emperor of this line being “Kurush” (Cyrus, the Great), the name coming from his paternal “Kuru” clan. His successors, Darius (Darya-vahu) & Xerxes (Kshy-arsha) too turned their attention westward, although close links continued between them & Bharatas (Indians)

    And true, the close link between the two continued even after the advent of Persian Empire… Chanakya thanked ‘Parsika’ tribe warriors of northern areas in Arthashastra, for helping ChandraGupta Maurya unseat Nandas…

    Ashoka sent Buddhist missionaries to Iran who were received well …Buddhism ever since was one of the religions fully acknowledges by various Persian Governments along with Judaism, not just in Iran, where you’ll still see ruins of Buddhist monastries even today, but in Afghanistan and Pakistan where it thrived undisturbed during Achaemedian and Sassanid rule. The Hindu traders who traded with Iranians built temples in Iranian territories of Azerbaijan and along the silk route for visit by other Hindu traders…Out of these one at Baku has survived the onslaught of Islamist…
    http://bakuphotos.blogspot.com/2008/06/india-connection-fire-temple-baku.html , http://hindusutra.com/archive/2007/05/20/in-search-of-an-ancient-hindu-temple-in-azerbaijan/
    These temples were not just protected but they were frequently visited by Iranians too…Just as you see Parsis today visiting SiddhiVinayak and Shirdi.

    These are the two maps of two great Empires on Persia…Both of them had extended their borders to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Gujarat in India
    http://www.iranchamber.com/history/achaemenids/images/achaemenid_empire_map.gif

    http://www.fouman.com/history/img/Map_Sassanid_Empire.jpg

    And even before any mai ka lal questions Parsis contribution, i would like to remind them, hinduism and buddhism thrived undisturbed in Pakistan and Afghanistan when it was under Persian rule for roughly 1000 years.

    Parsis are not aliens in India…Our history doesn’t start from 9th century AD… We have always lived in regions of India from the vedic times…Historically the story of Parsis landing in India is all rubbish… only an idiot like Phiroze would fall for it… There is no a single historical account or any chronicle evidence of any event of Parsis arriving in boats .. The King Jadi Raana, who is said to have given shelter to Parsis is ficticious…And why would they come to Indian shores to escape Islamist persecution and than stay back in India when it was under Islamic rule for 800 years? The whole crappy story is invented by Parsi Priests like Phiroze who have a vested interest in keeping the community under their control by feeding it with insecurity.

    Zarathushtra is called Vahishtha in Avesta. And there is a uncanny resemblance to Rishi Vashishtha in the Rigveda who was the chief of the Asura Sages who sang the Hymns of Asura [Ahura] Varuna. Food for thought for types like Jai…who thrive on jingoism and see everyone other than hindus as outsiders …They even have the audacity to question contributions made by others while choosing to look the other way as Ambanis spend 20 billion dollars on a house meant for four while crores of hindus live under poverty line.

  • Rémi

    Farzana: Are you sure of “Soma-Homa as Hormazd, and Varun as Ahura Mazda”? I’m pretty sure I read that “Hormazd” is the Middle Persian rendering of the Avestan “Ahura Mazda”.

  • Phiroze

    Farzana: “Zarathustra is called Vahishtha in Avesta” Where?
    Firstly its Vahishta and not Vahishtha. We are talking Avesta here not tamil where Smita becomes Smitha. Vahishta means the “best one” loosely translated as in Ahsem Vohu…….Vahishtai Ashem. Before trying to teach others better learn yourself. With the likes of you around the only vested interest I have is to expose your crappy theories about Zarathustra’s uncanny resemblance to Rishi Vashishtha.
    Stop this ta tha thaiya for your own good.

  • farzana

    Yes remi…. Varun/Varoon is 44th of 101 names of Ahura Mazda…

    Coming to Soma/Homa…lets see how it all falls…
    In Apri hymns of Rig veda triple goddesses Ila, Saraswati and Mahi are celebrated together. Mahi is also refer to as Bharati…therefore these three Goddesses are allegories for geographical locations – Ila- [Elam, original name for land comprising Iran], Saraswati [River] and Bharati [India, Mahi=Meluhhan (ancient name of India/Indus valley)].

    in RigVeda, Ila is chief progenitor of the Lunar Dynasty (Somavamsha)…Historically too, Elamittes of Elam and neighboring lands of Mesopotamia, were chiefly worshipers of Moon God called- Sin or Naana or Su’en. They considered themselves as descendants of Moon. So number of their King used to use ‘Sin’ as the suffix to their names like- Naram Sin, Rim Sin, Warad Sin etc.
    This God ‘Sin’ was described as the “father of the gods”, “chief of the gods”, “creator of all things” and the “wisdom” personified ..Sin had a beard made of lapis lazuli [ BLUE stone also called Lehsunia] and rode on a winged bull also called the “Bull of Heaven”, along with the crescent and the tripod. He lived in heaven which was very high up in the sky…and so elamittes built tall ziggurats to be close to God Sin while they prayed.

    If one has to decipher this God- Sin… He has to be a photocopy of Som in Vedas or Hoam in Avesta. Naana is close to Narain, another name by which he is called.
    And his winged bull of Heaven is Nandi… This also explains where the guardian winged bull man at the entrance of the fire temple comes from :)…

    God Sin was commonly designated as En-zu, which means “lord of wisdom” and his place of residence in the sky was called “house of the great light” -egish-shirgal.

    When Medes Aryans overpowered semitic Elamittes in the west of Iran, they might have come in contact with this Moon Cult…and may have adopted Sin as Hom [remember they had problem with pronouncing ‘S’…so their Som was Hom ]…hence for them this God was Hom+great Wisdom=Hormadz= “lord of wisdom”…Considering he had the same designation as their own Ahura Mazda, Aryans added Hormadz as his alternative name of Ahura Mazda. This also explains the worship of Albino Bull and drinking of Bull piss as a Zoroastrian ritual.

    If you remember the story of Zarathushtra…It says when baby Zarathushtra was left to get crushed under the passing herd of cattle on the way side…Dadar [vedic- Datta] Hormadz sent a bull from Heaven to shield him. This shows the importance ‘Bull of heaven’ has played in mythology

    The Cult of this Moon God and his wing Bull is not restricted to Elam and Assyrria…It seems to be invented in prehistoric primitive times and it had ever since traveled wide to number of places including Arabian peninsula were the same God was worshiped as El by Cannites. They had built a tall temple for Lord of Moon -El on mount Zion… When Jewish tribes defeated Cannites… they adopted El as Ela or Elon and made his existing temple on Mount Zion as first temple of Jews…They carried this God to other lands that they annexed in Arabian peninsula…and soon this God came to be known as – El, Elon, Elyas, Ela, Allah.

    I don’t see any one nation or religion has a patented right over this God…or cult… It might have been invented by a primitive man enchanted seeing a moon in blue sky…Ever since this cult of Moon worship and Bull worship has traveled to different lands via contact… Each of this lands gave him a name, family , house and wove a colorful story glorifying him.

  • farzana

    Phiroze, you exposed me? Show me where?

    So you have never read ‘vahishta’ mentioned in Avesta or Gathas!!…

    Vahishta in Gathas, is pronounced as Vashishtha in the Rigveda… Im not surprised by your show of ignorance…this is not the first time…nor it is the last time. Go on… you are exposing your own self without any help from me.

    here read this-

    Ashem vohu, vahishtem asti
    Righteousness is good; it is the greatest good of all.

    In the Gathas the term Vahishta is an attribute of the Great Asura Himself:

    Vahishtem thwa vahishta yem
    Asha vahishta hazaoshem
    Ahurem yasa va’unus
    Naroi Frasoshtrai maibya cha

    “Thou art the Greatest Good; this [also] is the greatest good. I would realise Thee, O Ahura, Who Art the Greatest Good; with love would I worship Thee, for the good of the valiant Frashoshtra, and for my good too”.
    Gatha 28.8

    In the first line of this verse there is a hint of a pun, in that Zarathushtra may also be applying the term to himself:
    the phrase “this [also] is the best” may be taken to mean “this
    [person: i.e., Zarathushtra] is [also] “the Best”, [that is, a Vashishtha]. For the name Vashishtha, like the names Bhrigu, Atharvan and Angirasa, also came to be used as a sort of title, denoting membership in a clan or sect.
    There were many Vashishthas; and, according to the Vedic scholar Griswold, the Vashishthas were the special guardians of the worship of Varuna.

    http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/Ch.2-SingleSided-Draft.pdf

  • Barak Aga

    .
    Mrs. Cooper and Meheryar, on a Demolition Drive.

    Dear Editor, perhaps you may consider inviting the duo to contribute columns to this website.

    Besides reporting news, it would do the community a whole lot of good, if erudite, honest, balanced members of the community such as Farzana and Meheryar were invited to contribute articles to this website.

    They are powerhouses of knowledge on history and Zoroastrianism, and above all they are unbiased.

    Many of us benefit from their contributions, and get to learn a lot from them.

  • Jai

    @ Raj,
    Temples are places of worship for those that believe in that religion. All religions do have something to teach to people and you can read their scriptures in libraries. Those are places for all public. No it is not your absolute right to gain entry into their private properties.
    I’m sure even you and your home have certain things that the world could well learn. Does that mean everyone should have the right to gain entry into your home or and you should not have that authority to decide who should or shouldn’t enter your home?

    And i didnot say that parsis still owe something to India if they consider themselves Indian citizens. The keywords here are Indian citizens.

    If they don’t as you and Meheryar clearly consider Parsis as a separate entity from India that does favoiurs to it then i will repeat it, their very survival is a debt they will never be able to repay all contributions from individual parsis not withstanding that you all would like to claim.

    If however their contributions that you and meheryar point out as a favour to India are done as an entity separate to India, i recognize no such debt. You can take all your contributions and leave for Iran and we shall see how you fair over there.
    The second you consider yourselves Indian citizens not some foreigner doing some favours to India and consider what you do as a duty all your debts are waived and since you do what you do as a duty where is the need to cite India owing you something?

  • Jai

    @Meheryar,
    All the names you cited are the names of sons and daughters of India who made great contributions as individuals. They are people i honour as individuals. It does not mean that you can ride their coat-tails and claim their individual contributions as something India owes to the Parsi community.

    When you do something equivalent or greater than what they have done then we will talk about you and still not the community achievements.
    All these great names are as much a part of my history as yours as an Indian. When they went out and made those sacrifices they did not go out and do it so somebody like you can claim their life’s work as a parsi contribution and ride their coat tails. They did it because they as individuals considered themselves sons and daughters of India.

    I say it again. it is all in the way you view things and what is in your heart. If you want to cite favours to India by your community, then i say you owe greater to India as a community. If in your heart you accept Indianness and do what you do for your country than none of us will ever be able to repay the great work of individuals.

    Sam Bahadur is a personal hero of mine and i will not be told by some Parsi who has never donned a uniform to serve India that i owe something to him as a Parsi since our own great son of India Sam Bahadur was a Parsi. Stop riding the coat tails of individuals to make a name for yourself.

  • Jai

    @meheryar,
    You are the kind that if tommorrow there is a war you will say since Sam Bahadur served as a Parsi, we as a Parsi community have done our time and have no duty to defend India today.
    Learn to think as an Individual here and now and stop riding the coat-tails of others.

    Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. That is what makes great countries. Unlucky is a country that is short of heroes.

    Just because you belong to the Parsi community does not mean your name belongs even in the same league as Sam Bahadur, Dadabhai Naoroji, Bhikaji Cama etc, linguistic compulsions not withstanding.

    I tell the same thing to Rajputs, Jats, Sikhs, Brahmins, Dalits, Muslims, Christians, red, white, black, blue or whatever colour and all other artificial names we as individuals have for ourselves to form identities. Stop trying to bask in the reflected glory of other individuals because they happened to belong to your community.

  • Jai

    India has the misfortune of having the kind of citizens it does. Everyone thinks India owes them something. Jats say they want reservations because of people in their community who fought for India. They destroy public property to get reservations. Parsis like meheryar though more sophisticated say it verbally but do think along the same lines citing India owes them something.

    So, every community has some individuals who did some great things in the past. Does it mean we as individuals should not serve India today or say that India owes us something for what someone else did in the past? Does it mean we bask in the reflected glory of others and take it easy.
    Everyone here is claiming prizes which they have themselves not earned as individuals. But nobody ever thinks about what India has done. India has given everyone of us a home which no other place in the world can ever give. Each one of our communities owes a debt to India which we will never be able to repay.
    Until and unless we think of ourselves born in debt to India, India as a country populated by prize takers of someone else’s achievement will not progress.

  • Jai

    And yes, I’m a Hindu nationalist. Instead of buying the propaganda about RSS from Anti national forces go and explore it on your own.
    This country will remain tolerant and remain a refuge for communities like Parsis and Jews like it did in the past only if it remains a Hindu majority. Parsis and Jews found a home in India without any persecution for thousands of years. Today people with the swastika and the star of david painted outside their house live next to each other peacefully only in India. Think about that the next time you think India owes something to you. What India has given to these people compared to the rest of the world.

    You can see for yourselves what has happened to Zoroastrianism in Iran. If we do not learn from history we are condemned to repeat and relive it.

  • Jai

    Farzana,
    Until you invent the time machine and go back to the days of the Parsi Zoroastrian Empire that ruled the areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan for 1000 years, you are merely farting in the wind.
    If you want to go back into the historical timeline you can go all the way back to when there was no Pakistan and Afghanistan. The kingdoms in these areas are mentioned as vedic kingdoms and even participated in the Mahabharata war. Don’t selectively go back to the historical time that suits your stance only. lands have gone back and forth several times.
    By that measure since the Parsi Zoroastrian Empire annexed parts of Vedic areas we should consider you as enemies today aswell. But i won’t do that. Your population demographics are insignificant and i don’t like to beat a community that has lost everything and is even struggling to keep up numbers.
    You don’t do your community or India any favours. If you want to revive the prehistoric rivalry of Aryan tribes of those that follow Vedic rites and those that follow Zarathustra, you can look at reality and where you stand. We as vedic people have withstood the test of time while you have lost all your “great Persian empire” including your home Iran.

    I had no intention of belittling anyone when i came here but since you want to act like the big man on the block, the reality is for all to see. You did not offer Islam resistance for even a century while we have given them hell for well over 800 years. By the time the British arrived the largest standing army of any consequence and the only navy in the region they faced were Hindu marathas. The mughals were all but nominal rulers exiled to Rangoon. Hindus kicked their teeth in without the British too. So if you are intent on flexing muscles, we can continue with this. i can do it on a debate and i can do it if you want to meet in person too.

  • Jai

    Wow, what a bunch of predictable cowardly editors. People like Farzana can absolutely rewrite and redefine Hindu history to suit their biased stance and even throw personal insults but if i say something, you delete my posts. Quite “unbiased” there. There were no abuses in what i wrote. you all can go to hell. You want to get on the wrong side of Hindus, bring it on!
    You can keep blowing your own Parsi horn since it’s parsi Khabar and delete all contradictory points of view. Won’t make a man out of any of you.

  • farzana

    Phiroze, egg on your face…

    Zoroastrianism is a proselytizing religion-Dr. Pallan Icchaporia

    After extensive field study (on going)on Zoroastrianism in ancient China, I have revisd my earlier opinion and came to conclusion that indeed Zoroastrianism is a proselytizing religion. The main reason is there is s nothing in the scriptures that prevents it. There is no historical findings that proves otherwise. There were quite a number of Chinese who were converted in ancient China by SABAO= ZOROASTRIAN CONVERTING PRIESTS AND EVEN MOGUs = HIGH PRIESTS CAME FROM PERSIA TO ESTABLISH PARISHES FOR TRAINING PRIESTS TO BECOME THE CONVERTING PRIESTS

    THE TANG DYNASTY AND SONG DYNASTY ARISTICRATES AND ROYAL HOUSE HOLDS were converted to Zoroastrianism. The proofs are already provided from archeological excavations of several Fire Temples. Several leading Chinese scholars asked me that if Zarathushtra had not converted Vistaspa and his the royal family, Zoroastriainism would not have been heard of and would not have spread from Sogdiana to Northern China. It was only in India that conversion was looked down and it is a SOCIAL PROBLEM.

    From the Gathas,Younger Avesta, Achemenian Inscritions to late Pahlavi literature, there is not a single statement that Conversion is prohibited. One instance of pointing Jasme Avenge Mazda that Mazdayasno Ahmi Mazdayasno Zarthushtri prevents conversions but if one sees Vendidad at several places only the word Mazdayasna occurs without Zaratheushtis.

    Jadiv Rana’s promise of non-converting has no legs to stand because Jadiv Rana never existed, no geneaology of such person is on record or ever found.

    I think this short note is sufficient.

    Best wishs,
    Dr. Pallan Ichaporia

  • Jai

    And what exactly is my type Farzana? I would like to know my type. It’s you that likes to pigeonhole people into types. I don’t think of types. i leave that to other liberal bollywood clowns to pigeon hole people. Do all of you look like the Parsi bawa in movies going Eh dikra dikra to everyone? I don’t think so, because i don’t typecast people.

    If i had to guess your type it would be the honour less, gutless type that lives on borrowed glory of other individual parsis. And no that does not reflect on all parsis. That’s just you.

  • Raj Aryaa

    @farzana…wohoo.awesum info…..gud work…its nice to know how every religion and culture has evolved from one another…I live in australia and its kinda hard to believe that once it was physically a part of the Indian sub continent and Thanks for taking sometime out and spreading the knowledge writing is def a task…cheers

  • http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/ arzan sam wadia

    Jai…this is in response to your comment on Feb 24 at 2:13 pm.

    As editor I reserve the choice to edit/delete comments as per editorial guidelines and erudite discretion.

    I notice that you mention that you will not be commenting here anymore, but only a few minutes later there are two more comments from you.

    So I guess you do see some benefit in being involved in the conversation. Don’t you?

  • http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/ arzan sam wadia

    I have always found this “refugee” status for Parsis a bit ludicrous. Parsis have been in Indian for the last +/- 1380 years.

    At what point does one move on from being a refugee to being a citizen. I am as Indian if not more than anyone who is Hindu by birth and hence deemed as an Indian with no refugee tag on it.

    In the words of the great JRD Tata….when asked what identity he associated himself with…..he answered ” I am an Indian first and an Indian last but in the middle I am all Parsi”.

    So I think people should get out of this feudalistic mindset of labelling the Parsis as refugees. Yes our forefathers….dozens of generations ago were.

    They paid their dues, worked extra hard, did well for themselves, their society and country, gave back more to the communities than they took from it, remained peaceful, did not forcibly convert and became the epitome of model citizens worthy of any democratic nation.

  • farzana

    Thanx Raj Arya…pleasure was mine. :)

  • Raj Aryaa

    @jai Dude u need to broaden ur horizon mate…I never said that Parsis have done a favour to India,,if for u the keyword is INDIAN CITIZENS for me the keyword is ACKNOWLEDGING All I have said is Im just acknowledging what they have done…if I get to see any other community doing constructive contribution I would acknowledge them,,,simple…and Farzana has given enough to tell how there lies cultural ties what was called pre Indo Iranian era…I guess u need some research…And Farzana has never redefined hindu History,,she just has found references between the two religions and that is called evolution…dude u would say the word mother has not come from the sanskrit word Maa….It simple mate Induaa valley civilization was the oldest and people have evolved from each other wats wrong…
    And U sayin temples are places for people who BELIEVE IN THAT RELIGION…u have answered the question…If u intelligent u will get it… and home = temple gud…i guess we don need temples then as per u..thats how u are referencing one’s admission into a temple….and btw who are u to tell someone to leave for Iran…in the first case u do not understand what u sayin…there was never a question of favours…mate…u are the one who made an issue of like nothin favours and debt.. nonsense..
    are u a kid..if the moderator deleted ur post chill man..probably not as per their guidelines…u have the rite to control someone’s asmission to temples based on ur views but the moderator cannot filter things…he has deleted my post as well…dude respect…it..
    and to ur earlier post if RSS is doin gud…amazin stuff…I wish them luck….and about terrorism…its nothin to do with religion otherwise how would u explain the hindus linked and accepting the samjhauta bomb blast…Being a hindu I feel sad..but that does not make my religion bad…Islam..wel there are gud people following islam,,APJ ABDUL KALAM..and typecasting is not ur forte? earlier u did that for ISLAM….so dude….don be contradictory….and mate i guess u need to take a chill pill..and stop cryin around..we are here to express view points and not Insult anyone…so don use words like leave for Iran..theer are a lot of hindus who call gandhiji names and say india ka kuch nahi ho sakta….where will u ask them to leave…maan…if u find such debates hard..guess i shall leave that for urself to decide…get somethin nice bring love to this community not HATRED….

  • Jai

    Arzan,
    I guess it takes a lot of time on your site for comments moderation. I checked back after some time and my comments were still not on, nor were being displayed as under review so i thought they’d been deleted for no good reason. A lot of sites do that.

    My apologies to you and editing team for the outburst. And yes, you have a lovely site. Keep up the good work.

    With regard to others having a feudalistic view and labeling parsis as refugees, i just want to point out i was talking in a particular context of some people here thinking they do some favour to India.
    I for one consider Parsis as full citizens. Question is whether they themselves do so? If they do, they don’t do any favours to India by helping out.
    Do you do a favour to anyone by maintaining, beautifying and improving your own home? India is your home too. That was the only point i was trying to make about how people look at things.

    The only time i used the word “refuge” was historically speaking that parsis and jews found refuge here. I did not say they are refugees now. You have been through the same trials and tribulations as all of us and we’ve triumphed many odds together.
    I’m not for appeasement and i speak my mind honestly. I’m not diplomatic with you because i consider you all part of the Indian family. i could say a lot of diplomatic things like Raj but then, they show that he still considers you an outsider. You do diplomacy with outsiders not with family. Are you diplomatic with your family? i don’t think so. Nobody could live that way.

  • http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/ arzan sam wadia

    Jai

    Thanks for your clarification.

    Re: comments being moderated….all comments initially are. And since all of us editors are in different time zones….it sometimes may take a few hours….12 or more to approve them.

  • Jai

    @Raj,
    If you do not respect private property and say all temples are for all people then all humans deserve a roof over their head too. Why don’t you take all the homeless people and house them in your home. I guess you don’t have the right to private property either if all temples are for all people. There are lots of things they could learn in your home so you should not be able to decide who should and shouldn’t enter either.
    Also, don’t selectively quote people out of context to suit your stance because you don’t have a reasonable argument. I said if you consider Parsis are doing favours to India, then you think of yourselves as outsiders and should leave for Iran. If you think of yourselves as Indians then how is what is you do to help change Indian society a favour? How is helping clean your own home a favour to anyone?
    Get it. Now i’ve dumbed it down enough for even you to understand.

  • Jai

    @Raj,
    @Raj,
    And i will say that to Hindus who act like India owes them something too. Leave for whichever country you think deserves pathetic people like you that want to be prize takers for the achievements of other individuals. I clarified that already in one of my previous posts.

    Countries become great when it’s citizens think about what they can do for the country, not what the country can do for them. The people who died serving this country would want nothing to do with the kind of people who’d like to benefit in their name.

    Point is be an individual and stop riding the coat tails of famous people in your community. They are famous because of what they did as individuals for their country, not because they were parsis, brahmins, rajputs, jats, dalits or whatever other identity people have for themselves.

  • Jai

    Arzan,
    OK, I didn’t realize your editors are in different time zones. I shall be more patient in the future.

  • farzana

    Jai, show me where have i said anything that qualifies as rewriting history ? here is a link that you may like to go though-
    http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1997_2/0035.html
    All that ive said is mentioned and acknowledged on this Hindu website…And FYI, J M Chatterjee is a vastly quoted historian on Aryan history, if you accuse me of rewriting history to suit my interest, you are indirectly accusing J M Chatterjee, who ive quoted…. I stand by every word ive stated here on history, If you still have problems with it , my email is farzanacooper@gmail.com…you and Raj Arya are free to contact me. It will be my pleasure to have you both as my friends.

  • Jai

    @Raj,
    Yes, i do have a bad opinion of Islam. No, i don’t think religions are above criticism and i should hold them all as high and equal. People will judge them for the values they preach.
    But that is another topic and i don’t want to mislead the forum here from the issues at hand. You want to discuss Islam you can join the faithfreedom site. It’s run by an Iranian Ex-muslim named Ali Sina. It’s quite a popular site and if you are on the net, i’m sure you’ve heard of it already. I’m sure you will come back more enlightened from it.

  • Jai

    @farzana,
    You say and i quote, ” Parsis are not aliens in India…Our history doesn’t start from 9th century AD… We have always lived in regions of India from the vedic times…Historically the story of Parsis landing in India is all rubbish… only an idiot like Phiroze would fall for it… There is no a single historical account or any chronicle evidence of any event of Parsis arriving in boats .. The King Jadi Raana, who is said to have given shelter to Parsis is ficticious…And why would they come to Indian shores to escape Islamist persecution and than stay back in India when it was under Islamic rule for 800 years? The whole crappy story is invented by Parsi Priests like Phiroze who have a vested interest in keeping the community under their control by feeding it with insecurity.”

    Now the website that you have yourself supplied says in the very first line that Parsis arrived in India in the 8th century AD. I shall use the term CE(Common Era) from now on as AD is a Christian term.

    My question is why do you make up lies about the priests making up lies. The study of similarities between the Vedic and the Zoroastrian people only happened much later, quite recently if you look at the historical time line. Much after the Parsi arrival in the 8th century CE. So before the comparative study of the vedas and the gathas all the parsis in India of the time knew was the family folklore of them landing in Gujarat in 8th century CE. The priests had nothing to gain by making up a story about parsi arrival. They only repeat folk memory.

    So you need to make up your mind whether you want to accuse Parsi priests of manufacturing the entire story about Parsi arrival in 8-9 century CE or do you want to believe this site that you cite to support your claims. It presents facts about both. You need to read more carefully. it’s quite good info. actually.
    I don’t question the historical similarities between the Vedic tribes and those tribes that came to be known as Zoroastrians. The Aryan origin of both is well known and well documented today. There was a historical split between the two groups and i’m quite familiar with the terminology of Daevas being portrayed as evil in Zoroastrian Gathas and Asuras/Ahuras being portrayed as evil among the vedic people. Infact the origin of the word “Devil” in monotheistic religions is from the first monotheistic religion Zoroastrianism. Daevas became the “Devil” that is so used today in Christianity. Though Daevas were the good side amongst the Vedic people. I’m familiar with all that.

    But it still does not change the fact that modern Parsis in India are descended from the Iranians who landed in 8th century CE. So the priests are not lying either. Yes, the Zoroastrian civilization had contact with the Vedic civilization far back in time but how does it change the fact that modern parsis are descended from the iranians who landed in India escaping Islamic persecution? The lack of historical records does not mean it didnot happen in history. All folklore is not mythical. If you cannot find proof of history, it does not mean it did not happen.

    Are you saying Parsis have forever lived in India and yet there was no dilution in their religion and they suddenly appeared out of nowhere and decided to come to Gujarat from all corners of India in 8th century CE to make up a story about some king Jadi Rana? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

    You accuse Zoroastrian priests of wrong doing when you should be thankful to them for preserving your rites and rituals intact and about your escape from Iran.

  • Jai

    Farzana,
    Your intent seems to be more in discounting the atrocities Islam committed against the Parsis which led to them leaving Persia.
    Revising history is the favorite pastime of Communist “historians”, if they can be called that. Are you by any chance a product of JNU?
    They cannot dispassionately do justice to writing history but instead back project things on it so it sits well with their present Status Quo politics. For instance they like to show islamic rule in India not for the imperialism it was but as something liberating for the lower castes forgetting that the lower castes were treated as infidels too and many of them fought against it. They like to show the looting of the Somnath temple as redistribution of wealth when the Islamic invaders had no such noble intentions.

  • Raj Aryaa

    @jai…dude u still debatin on the same issue..which i have said…does not exist but is created by u coz u dont get it clear…i have never said or used the word Favour..its used by u…so there is a gap of understanding…I have only thanked them….if u want reasons…well I come from jamshedpur a city founded by the TATAS..3 generations have worked for them…and we know how selfless they are…TATAS have never worked for themselves but for its employees I can only be indebted to the TATAS for everythin I have today..and for the amazin time i have spent with Pasis who happen to be very close to my family….dude where do u get diplomacy in all this…I thank my dad for everything he does…all this is called Acknowledging….maan….And dude why do u keep saying outsider and diplomacy and all that stuf….maan u seriously need to think before what u write…I have refrenced FARZANA’ name coz she had amazing info about teh pre Indo Iranian era..I never had time to study on that…and that refrencing was to

  • Raj Aryaa

    @jai

    ur post- Jai 24 February 2011 at 1:34 pm #
    Now let me quote u so that u get it rite,,,
    But i just want to say something to Raj, i hardly think parsis as a community are doing any favours to India if they do some charity.Dude the word FAVOUR is used by YOU…this is because in my post I have thanked them..I was just acknowledging their work. Its no favour…we all can thank each other that’s not diplomacy but appreciation.As citizens of India they must also take ownership and consider it their duty in changing indian society for the better.This does not make any sense to me coz its understood that “they= parsis” have always been Indians before Moguls as well.They’ve lived here for centuries now and if it wasn’t for India, Zoroastrianism would not even exist today after Iran was conquered by Islam.Dude farzana has given enuf references to tell you that there existed a pre Indo Iranian civilization so they have come back to their motherland for me,,,now u can decode it ur way…Does not make any diff to anyone… It is India more specifically Hindu India that gave them refuge and the opportunities to thrive as business people. They have thrived as Businessmen not because of others but because of their own WIT and Intellect and amazing financial acumen..The very survival of Zoroastrianism is i think a debt they will never be able to repay if they themselves think of themselves as non-Indian. NO DEBT coz they came bak to their motherland. think they owe more to India than India owes to them. If you think they do some favour then perhaps you still think of them as Iranian outsiders too. They owe more to India??????We all owe everything to our motherland…U , I and every Indian. Never did I say the word favour. The word Favour is decoded by u,,,, so considering them as Iranian outsider does not exist. We do our duties some acknowledge us some don’t…irrespective we carry on our duties…I have acknowledged SIMPLE. its simple English…Likewise Hindu temples are for hindus.Pls find refrences from this post- Meheryar Rivetna 20 February 2011 at 9:58 pm. I cant spoon feed u for every kid dish arguments u post..I’m not for appeasement and i speak my mind honestly. I’m not diplomatic with you because i consider you all part of the Indian family. i could say a lot of diplomatic things like Raj but then, they show that he still considers you an outsider. You do diplomacy with outsiders not with family. Are you diplomatic with your family? i don’t think so. Nobody could live that way.Dude U don tell ur family all the time u are my family u just thank them for what they have done acknowledge in different ways And BTW even if u don consider them a part of teh Indian Family …every one living in India are a part of the Indian Family….So no one is waiting for ur approval…speak ur mind but only if it makes sense….understand and decode in the rite manner…As for diplomacy boy u decode it wrong…I will thank them for what they mean to me all my life…and mind u its not a favour they have done…so pls..Why don’t you take all the homeless people and house them in your home.We have been trying to do ourbest we have built an orphanage in Jamshedpur which is my hometown they are about 30 orphans..Can I expect some donations…They are people from the near by villages…If u want the number let me know…I would want you to help…Also, don’t selectively quote people out of context to suit your stance because you don’t have a reasonable argument. Coz i cant spoon feed u..and thats y I had to refer her… I said if you consider Parsis are doing favours to India, then you think of yourselves as outsiders and should leave for Iran.I have never said about parsis doin any favour coz there never exists a question,,, decoded by u …And i will say that to Hindus who act like India owes them something too. Dude it was a sarcastic question u never had to answer that.. Leave for whichever country you think deserves pathetic people like you that want to be prize takers for the achievements of other individuals. Mate I don need to be a prize taker for anyone’s achievement so get the boo of ur self mity…and If u have a thought its ur mind borne…coz I guess today even a kid realized no one can ride on anyone else’s achievement….relax..coz i guess u know to write… what to write??? is non sense…Well I was not here to show of what i have done but thank the community as a whole coz a lot of parsis still work with me India/ Abroad for the orphanage and educating girl child. I need tremendous help. Can u donate..If yes let me know…can be cash or kind….thanks…

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Jai,

    Thank you for your numerous posts. A caveat upfront. I will try not to be insolent and presumptuous as you have been, but should I slip in my fervor, I ask that you chalk it off as human frailty.

    My response was a rejoinder to your blatant accusations in your Feb. 20 post such as…”I hardly think Parsis as a community are doing any favors to India if they do some charity.” You went on to say, “The very survival of Zoroastrianism is I think a debt they will never be able to repay…” And finally, “I think they owe more to India than India owes to them.”

    Now, please re-visit your post for clarification if I have misquoted you. In my post, I did acknowledge that if India was intolerant to other faiths, in all likelihood, Zoroastrianism would not have survived in India. My retort was to enlighten you that Parsis, as a community, have repaid their debt many times over. I did not say or suggest in any way that Parsis should “bask in reflected glory.” You also went on to accuse me that if India should face hostilities from outside, we have no obligation to defend India. Please tell me where I said that. I am not riding on anyone’s coat-tails, either. While being proud of my community’s accomplishments and contributions, I was countering your ludicrous aspersions on Parsis.

    Yes, just as the Parsis owe India a debt for tolerance, India owes the Parsis gratitude. No one is asking for anything more. Today, Parsi contributions are wiped off of history books. Do you have children? If you do and they are of school-age, please open their history books and let me know if you find any of the names I mentioned in my last post. Right from the first standard to the twelfth. Whose names do you find? I will bite my tongue here, or, more aptly, stop my fingers from flying all over the keyboard (I promised to try and not be frail in my discourse with you.) Is wiping out Parsi history showing gratitude? When I said India owes the Parsis, what do you think I meant? I meant gratitude. Not to me or any other fellow Zoroastrians posting here, but the community at large or, if it pleases you, even gratitude to those iconic individuals.

    If the attitude of Parsis today is not to your liking, have you tried to examine your countrymen’s attitude towards the Parsis? You cannot marginalize a community and expect the community to reciprocate positively. Would you take it lying down if the Hindu community was reviled?

    Instead of trying to understand my post objectively, you flew off on a tangent and started rambling about riding on coat tails and my considering Parsis not being citizens of India or that I consider Parsis a separate entity from other Indians and similar nonsense that you spit out without any basis. No one is basking in reflected glory. There is nothing wrong in being proud of your community or culture or nation.

    You accuse us of not having done anything. Please tell me what you have done that you have the audacity to challenge us. Just because you thump your chest and run around calling yourself an Indian, makes you an Indian? Just because you unleash a multitude of baseless accusations, innuendos, assumptions and provocations on those who are proud of their community makes you an Indian?

    If you can quote President John F. Kennedy (Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country) so can I. If you can quote Jorgé Santayana (If we do not learn from history we are condemned to repeat it) so can I. I am also very well read, so let’s dispense with the clichés and say something original. I’d be happy to spit out platitudes and bury you in them, if you wish. Let’s not regurgitate the great words spoken by someone else, worst of all “foreigners.” Let’s not bask in their erudition.

  • phiroze

    Jai, as my friend Meheryar said on FB your words ” They are famous because of what they did as indiviuals and not because they are Parsis” should be framed and hung in houses of all those who go around saying “If Tata and Wadia can, Why can’t I” or my great grand father designed these many buildings free of cost or my father performed so many nirangdins or my father served in the army so that makes us special. Thanks Jai.

  • Phiroze

    Frazana, going by your suggestion if Vahishta – the good or best one is the same as Rishi Vashishta then the Gathas and the Rigveda are also one and the same. Doesn’t make much sense to anyone here. Are you saying that Zarathustra Spitma translated the rigveda into the Gathas or did Rishi Vashishtha translate the Gathas into Rigveda?

  • Phiroze

    Farzana, can you ask Dr. Ichhaporia what happened to those converts and why there are no vast numbers of Zoroastrians left in China inspite of trained converting priests?

  • Raj

    @farzana…u are amazing..with the knowledge u have here…wud be an absolute pleasure…I really appreciate the time u take out…to write amazing things…coz every bit is so much of easy information..as in u don really need to search for things…God bless…

  • farzana

    Thanks Arya Raj…pleasure is mine:)

    Jai,

    //Your intent seems to be more in discounting the atrocities Islam committed against the Parsis which led to them leaving Persia.//

    Did i say anything about islamists being good?? Has Islam been good for Iran? No…Quoting an Iranian professor i had good fortune to interact- “Islam was one step forward for uncivilized and ten steps backward for those already civilized “…

    //Now the website that you have yourself supplied says in the very first line that Parsis arrived in India in the 8th century AD//

    Yes…i know that, but that website was recommended by me to show you the commonality between the two cultures as put up by the HINDU website that was identical to what i had stated here, since you ACCUSED me of rewriting HINDU history for my vested Interest [?]….

    Regarding the folklore of ships carrying Iranians sneaking in Indian shore of Gujarat seeking refuge …and a Hindu King allowing them to settle here under some conditions…well, IN MY OPINION its only a fable since there is no record to confirm it…8th century ppl were not living in caves not to record an important event like this anywhere….not even the King’s own court historians have account of it. Of cause, besides a point, there was never a King who ruled Gujarat named Jadi Rana…Next, Sassanian empire extended up till to the borders of Gujarat… I don’t see why anyone should come in ships when they can just cross the borders by foot!! Thirdly, small group of parsis traders were already trading from gujarat shores when before islamists invaded persia, and could have lived here prior to the fall of gujarat… Fourthly, forced conversion in Iran started in 10th century under saffavids…not in 8th century…In 8th century, Persians were still rebelling against arab governors and majority were still Zoroastrians. Fifth reason, Zoroastrians in India used to regularly contact mobeds in Iranian in matters of religion…this interaction is recorded in Parsi Rivayats… Sixthly, Parsi names and surnames bare words that are in gujarati mostly giving prominence to their trade…esp surfix ‘wala’… Iranian names and surnames are drastically different… Also most Iranians who i have interacted feel Parsis are too hindunised and unlike them.

    As i said already, its MY PERSONAL OPINION that Parsis settled in India, dunno when, but for business and trade interest and not here as religious refugees…Just as number of Indians have settled in US and all around the world for better prospects or because they have business interests in those countries…
    And yes, ppl migrate to new lands all the time…in all ages…Hindu Temple at Baku, shows the fact that just as Parsi traders hindu traders too frequented Persia for business trips…
    Im not discounting the fact that Parsis [persians] could have settled here at some point … Dunno when and why…But i doubt the traditional folklore ….If you love the story so much you are free to keep believing it… Happy?

    PS- The group of Zoroastrians who settled in India due to persecution of Shiite islam call themselves Iranis and this migration took place in 19th century.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Phiroze, are you that desperate to prove your point that you have to put words in my mouth to support your defunct arguments? Do you have to use me as a crutch because your arguments cannot stand on their own? I went through the entire discussion board where we’ve exchanged posts on FaceBook for the past two months and I did not come across one place where I said what you state. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, so please give me the exact location where I said this. I don’t think I have said anything of this nature and if I have, then you have taken my words out of context. Please don’t do that. I am not in the habit of making statements I cannot substantiate. Please clear this for me. Thanks. You may not have true pride in your heritage; others and myself are proud of what our forefathers did; whether they built buildings, did “nirangdin kriyas”, charities, whatever. Being proud of your ancestry is not riding on coat tails. This kind of reasoning comes only from people who have no ancestry or anything to be proud of.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Jai,

    Yesterday, in my post I started to ask you a question, but I lost my train of thought and so couldn’t finish my question.

    You railed into me for taking pride in the accomplishments of my community. You accused me of “basking in reflected glory of others.” You also said that since I, personally, have not done anything noteworthy, I cannot ride the coat tails (how you concluded that I do so is beyond me) of Parsis who have great accomplishments. In summary, what you are saying is that I cannot take pride in what my community has done for India, because I have not done anything great. Fair enough.

    Now, you come across as a patriot. You project a great love for India; what it stands for and I assume you take pride in being an Indian. By your argument, whose coat tails are you riding on? You have no right to be proud of India. What have you done? I am not even sure the name you use is your real name; not that I care. That is for my friend Phiroze to worry about. Whose reflected glory are you basking in? Gandhi? ( I am sure the Mahatma would not approve of your tactics). Or is it Tilak? Or maybe Gokhale? You see, these people did something. You? Nothing! So, don’t come blustering on this site denigrating a great community and its members (refer to your very first post.) Based on your analogies and crooked argument, you have no right to take pride in India. Have you wiped out the corruption in India? Have you eradicated the grinding poverty in India? Or do you just jump into cyberspace to lecture people and insult their communities? Please don’t call yourself a proud Indian; you have no right, you are merely riding on the coat tails of great Indians. When you do something worthwhile, come back and talk to us. Till such time…I think you know what to do.

  • farzana

    //Thirdly, small group of parsis traders were already trading from gujarat shores when before islamists invaded persia, and could have lived here prior to the fall of gujarat//

    Sorry…what i meant was – Thirdly, small group of parsis traders were already trading from gujarat shores EVEN before islamists invaded persia, and could have lived here prior to the fall of PERSIA

  • farzana

    //Or is it Tilak? Or maybe Gokhale? You see, these people did something. You? Nothing! So, don’t come blustering on this site denigrating a great community and its members (refer to your very first post.) Based on your analogies and crooked argument, you have no right to take pride in India. Have you wiped out the corruption in India? Have you eradicated the grinding poverty in India? Or do you just jump into cyberspace to lecture people and insult their communities?//

    Meheryar, well said.

  • farzana

    //Farzana, can you ask Dr. Ichhaporia what happened to those converts and why there are no vast numbers of Zoroastrians left in China inspite of trained converting priests?//

    Phiroze…are you ok? There are Zoroastrians who are Kurds, there are Zoroastrians who are Russians, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Norwegians and Swedish besides Iran..and these Zoroastrians don’t owe you any explanation nor is there any compulsion on them to give their attendance to you… Besides how can you be so sure, there are no Zoroastrians left in China? Are they suppose to broadcast themselves?

    According to Dhanshak bawas in India, anyone who is not a Parsi is not a Zoroastrian!! Remember how idiots from your brigade had beaten up poor old Russian man at Sanjan simply because he said he was a Zoroastrian? And remember how few years back, Kurd Zoroastrians were stopped from entering agiary??…Why? because they were not Parsis from India…so technically they don’t qualify as Zoroastrians…!!

    I still can’t understand, why do you think, any Zoroastrian in any part of the world has an obligation to get approval of their faith from bawas staying in India?

  • farzana

    //Frazana, going by your suggestion if Vahishta – the good or best one is the same as Rishi Vashishta then the Gathas and the Rigveda are also one and the same. Doesn’t make much sense to anyone here. Are you saying that Zarathustra Spitma translated the rigveda into the Gathas or did Rishi Vashishtha translate the Gathas into Rigveda?//

    Phiroze, this is your PATHETIC level of understanding history and religion…Ive already provided you with the link but i bet you have not taken pains to open it…Forget that link i gave you, but if you had even a penny worth sense, you would have searched for info on your search machine on any credible site… before coming here to prove your certified IGNORANCE.

    Now again, here is another link, http://ssubbanna.sulekha.com/blog/post/2010/08/varuna-and-his-decline-part-seven-7-of-7.htm

    “Separation of Books

    82.1. The rift between the two clans was more or less formalized when the composite text Atharvana Veda, also called Bhrigu – Angirasa Samhita, was split into two books along the lines of their affiliations: the Bhargava Veda (the Veda of the Bhrigus) and Angirasa Veda (the Veda of the Angirasa).It is believed that the Atharva Veda which has come down to us in India is, in fact, only one-half of the original text – the Angirasa Veda part. The other half the Bhargava Veda is lost to us.

    82.2. Shri Jatindra Mohan Chatterji argues that the Bhrigus whose notions of God, of his worship and of the moral order were not well accepted in the east took with them their sacred text Bhargava Veda over to the west of the Sindhu River. Shri Chatterji says that Zend Avesta is the Bhargava Veda text that was lost to India. He asserts that the Bhargava Veda the missing Book of the Bhrigu Angirasa Samhita is indeed the Zend Avesta (The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra – Published by The Parsi Zoroastrian Association, Calcutta, 1967).”

    ————————————————-

    Again, i bet, you will not read the link ive provided… you will simply read two paras ive posted here and come back with more stupid questions to showcase your ignorance.

    This is not the first time…and its not going to be the last…

    Remember your cherry on the cake reasoning on FB where you stated- “Arabs let Parsis flee in ‘boats’ across Arabian sea because arabs didn’t know swimming!! ” … May be you should frame this up as the best joke of the century!!

  • farzana

    //You may not have true pride in your heritage; others and myself are proud of what our forefathers did; whether they built buildings, did “nirangdin kriyas”, charities, whatever. Being proud of your ancestry is not riding on coat tails. This kind of reasoning comes only from people who have no ancestry or anything to be proud of.//

    Well Said, Meheryar…

    And Phiroze…shame on you…what kind of man would drag Darius’s father in the discussion here knowing well, he is not even here to defend himself.

    Darius is in arm force fighting with real TERRORIST in KASHMIR… His dream is to resettle Pundits in their homeland in Kashmir just because he sees them in the same boat as Parsis…His father was in arm force and he feels proud of it…Whats wrong with that??? Have you or JAI done even a milligram worth of service for the country?? What right do you have to question Darius’s pride? Or for that matter, Barak’s forefather’s contribution to the community???
    His grand father had built schools, hospitals , baugs and donate handsomely towards the community… What have you done for the country or your community apart from floating on net spreading misinformation? Obviously you have nothing to be proud of.

  • Barak Aga

    .
    I wish to add to what Farzana has stated.

    The presence of Indian diaspora in Central Asia can also be attributed to the Slave Trade.

    Indian Diaspora in Central Asia and its trade. 1550-1900 By Scott Cameron Levi.

    “The Turanian slave trade continued during the course of the eighteenth century, althought fewer INDIAN SLAVES were exported to Turan.
    Rather from the beginning from the eighteenth century, the slave markets of Bukhara and Khiva were stocked almost exclusively with Iranians.

    Page 69 – Growth of Indo-Turanian Trade.
    Muzaffar Alam attributes the decline in exportation of Indian slaves in the eighteenth century, to both economic and social factors, specifying that as India produced more textiles for export, it was no longer necessary for Indian merchants to trade slaves for Turki horses.

    Although Alam’s assertion about the magnitude of India’s textile production is well-founded, it does not explain the unwillingness, or inability of merchants to continue exporting large number of Indian slaves to Turan presuming the availibility of an adequate supply at an agreeable price.

    As the Mughal Empire decentralised and Islamic military expansion in the subcontinent came to a close, the supply of Indian slaves dwindled.
    This left Turanian slave traders little recourse, but to look elsewhere, for a viable source, to satisfy the market’s nearly insatiable demand.

    From the beginning of the eighteenth century, the infamous Turkmen raiders, turned their attention to the numerous, comparatively close, and poorly defended Iranian cities and villages, bordering their territory for this unfortunate merchandise.

    Smaller number of Indian Slaves continued to be sold in the markets of Bukhara well in to the nineteenth century. Turgun Faiziev has uncovered several 19th century records documenting the presence in Bukhara of slaves of Indian origin, some identified as “Hindu”, and others as “Chitrari” (i.e., from Chitral, a region deep in the mountains, of far northwestern India, modern Pakistan, bordering Afghan Badakshan.”

  • Jai

    Raj,
    Way to go misleading the whole discussion on the point you were trying to make initially, to which i responded. You said Temples should be open to everyone and thus it is implicit in your statement that you don’t recognize rights to private property. To which i responded by saying why don’t you let the homeless people into your own private property? Now why do you have a separate orphanage for the kids? They should all be in your own home. If temples cannot reserve rights of admission, you shouldn’t be able to aswell for your private property.
    It’s good that you are doing charity but since the point was you not recognizing rights to private property, don’t go obscuring the fact now with the charity that you do. You maybe the most charitable person on the planet. It still does not validate your point about not recognizing private property.
    As for decoding you, i think i’m going to need a decoding manual for the way you write. Any suggestions, where i can get one?

  • Jai

    Farzana,
    You said and i quote, “Jai, show me where have i said anything that qualifies as rewriting history ? here is a link that you may like to go though-
    http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1997_2/0035.html
    All that ive said is mentioned and acknowledged on this Hindu website…And FYI, J M Chatterjee is a vastly quoted historian on Aryan history, if you accuse me of rewriting history to suit my interest, you are indirectly accusing J M Chatterjee, who ive quoted…. I stand by every word ive stated here on history, If you still have problems with it , my email is farzanacooper@gmail.com…you and Raj Arya are free to contact me. It will be my pleasure to have you both as my friends”.

    Now I did prove that you were indeed rewriting history and not only that you were wrongly accusing the priests of trying to control the community by feeding them insecurity.

    It was clarified on the site you endorsed that Parsis did indeed land in India from Iran in the 8th century CE. (I don’t claim to be an expert on Parsi history, i’m just using the source you endorsed). And that the comparative studies of the Gathas and the Vedas happened much later. So it proves that the Priests weren’t hiding any “true history” that you accuse them of. They weren’t even aware of it at the time.

    Moreover you go on to say in another post, “Regarding the folklore of ships carrying Iranians sneaking in Indian shore of Gujarat seeking refuge …and a Hindu King allowing them to settle here under some conditions…well, IN MY OPINION its only a fable since there is no record to confirm it…8th century ppl were not living in caves not to record an important event like this anywhere….not even the King’s own court historians have account of it”.
    So, if you or anyone else cannot find any records, does it mean it didnot happen and is a fable. If you lose your birth records does it mean you were not born? There are several ways records could be lost fires, invasions, and god knows what not. What incentive do the priests have in inventing this fable when they had no conclusive knowledge of the Indo Iranian civilization you refer to and accuse them of hiding and how does this “fable” provide more control on the community? Moreover how do you explain similar folklore circulating in all the Parsi families? If they were already existing in India, surely some would have called the priests bluff in all this time. Why would all of them agree to go along with the fable anyway if they were already residents of the region? What was their incentive?

    You asked me to prove you were rewriting history and i did. So what are you still on about? You’ve lost all credibility.

  • Barak Aga

    .
    Dear Phiroze,

    Kindly visit the following website :

    http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html

    Under the section captioned “Specialised Ancient Maps”, the map of the Achaemenid Empire (500 BC) is available.

    The map will reveal that “Kaccha”, “Saurashtra” “Sauvira” and “Nishada” in modern day Gujarat and Rajasthan states were neighbours of the Achaemined Persian Empire.

  • Jai

    Meheryar,
    You say and i quote, “Now, please re-visit your post for clarification if I have misquoted you. In my post, I did acknowledge that if India was intolerant to other faiths, in all likelihood, Zoroastrianism would not have survived in India. My retort was to enlighten you that Parsis, as a community, have repaid their debt many times over. I did not say or suggest in any way that Parsis should “bask in reflected glory.” You also went on to accuse me that if India should face hostilities from outside, we have no obligation to defend India. Please tell me where I said that. I am not riding on anyone’s coat-tails, either. While being proud of my community’s accomplishments and contributions, I was countering your ludicrous aspersions on Parsis.

    Nowhere have i cast aspersions on Parsis as a whole. If you think you can pay the debt of your very survival many times over to India then we are definitely not on the same page. All Parsi successes and accomplishments come after survival. You can’t do anything if you are dead. Also, if you bothered to read my other posts i said all Indians should consider themselves born in debt to India if we want to progress. India as a country populated with prize takes of somebody else’s accomplishments in their community cannot progress.

    You further go on to say, “Yes, just as the Parsis owe India a debt for tolerance, India owes the Parsis gratitude. No one is asking for anything more. Today, Parsi contributions are wiped off of history books. Do you have children? If you do and they are of school-age, please open their history books and let me know if you find any of the names I mentioned in my last post. Right from the first standard to the twelfth. Whose names do you find? I will bite my tongue here, or, more aptly, stop my fingers from flying all over the keyboard (I promised to try and not be frail in my discourse with you.) Is wiping out Parsi history showing gratitude? When I said India owes the Parsis, what do you think I meant? I meant gratitude. Not to me or any other fellow Zoroastrians posting here, but the community at large or, if it pleases you, even gratitude to those iconic individuals”.

    Again, you want India should show gratitude to the entire parsi community for what Individuals have done. And then you say you are not riding anybody’s coat tails. Both cannot be true. You seem to think Indians should be your slaves and you their master just because you belong to a community that had some great individuals. There are many communities with great individuals. You really need to be brought down to the ground. If you think you are some superior being, you need to take the next flight of to where ever the hell you think deserves your thankless kind. And i’m talking to you as an individual for your stinking views before you claim i’m dissing all parsis. How about you showing some gratitude for being alive and free and having Zoroastrianism as a living faith? When you say you’ve paid your debt many times over, you’ve got from India many times over than what you would have had if Parsis hadn’t found refuge here historically speaking. As for individual contributions wiped out from history, i haven’t picked up any recent school history books. If this indeed is fact, then it is pathetic. I would be miffed about it too but not because they are parsis but about any Indian hero. You are also a citizen who is aware of this fact why don’t you organize a protest for it?

    You further say, “If the attitude of Parsis today is not to your liking, have you tried to examine your countrymen’s attitude towards the Parsis? You cannot marginalize a community and expect the community to reciprocate positively. Would you take it lying down if the Hindu community was reviled?”

    Nowhere have i said that the attitude of the entire parsi community is not to my liking. You seem to not know the difference between you as an individual and the entire parsi community. When i criticize you, you assume i’m criticizing the entire parsi community.
    And you know why i criticize you in person because you say “your countrymen” as if you are some separate entity. If you are than you should immediately leave India and us Indians Parsis and all others who consider it their country will resolve our issues by participation.
    And Parsis as marginalized, don’t make me laugh. Parsis are one of the richest communities in India and after having the opportunities to succeed in India like you have, if you consider yourself marginalized maybe you need to visit some slums and get a perspective. Now you may claim it’s parsi ingenuity and business acumen that you’ve succeeded but all virtues flow from one and that is freedom and you have that here. You can’t do jack without opportunities that freedom provides.

    Taking pride in your community and asking for gratitude because you happen to follow the same religion as Sam Bahadur, Dadabhai, Naoroji etc are two different things. You do ride their coat tails and are still doing it.

    Again with your, “you accuse us of not doing anything”. Where have i said that the parsi community has not done anything? Kindly show me where i’ve said that. Just coz i think you as an individual are crap does not mean i think the entire parsi community is crap.

    You further say, If you can quote President John F. Kennedy (Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country) so can I. If you can quote Jorgé Santayana (If we do not learn from history we are condemned to repeat it) so can I. I am also very well read, so let’s dispense with the clichés and say something original. I’d be happy to spit out platitudes and bury you in them, if you wish. Let’s not regurgitate the great words spoken by someone else, worst of all “foreigners.” Let’s not bask in their erudition”.

    They maybe just cliche’s for you because you have no honour and you proved that when you claim the achievement of other individual parsis as your own but they are good ideas for me.
    The vedas say let good ideas flow in from all directions. So, they maybe foreign but i appreciate them for their value in building a nation.

  • Jai

    Meheryar,
    I concluded that you ride the coat tails of other individual Parsis When you said India owes a lot to the parsis and not the other way around. You further went on to cite names of noteworthy individuals belonging to the parsi community to make your point.

    These individuals were citizens of India and did what they did for their individual commitment to India and and i as an Indian citizen honour them as individuals.

    But where do you fall in the equation trying to steal some of their starlight just for being born a parsi?

    Why does India owe to the entire parsi community including you for what these great people did? And how do you claim them more than the rest of Indians? They are my heroes too and part of my history aswell. Did Sam Bahadur win us those battles just for the Parsi community? Was he the field marshal of the Parsi Army or the Indian Army?

    First learn the difference in taking pride in your country and thinking India owes you something for just being born in the same religion as a national hero.

    So me loving my motherland is riding someone’s coat tails? Could your arguments get anymore stupid? Do i claim any gratitude from you for what India has done for you? Why would i do that? i’m as indebted to India as i say you are to it. I’ve said that all along. I said every Indian should consider himself born in debt to India.

    No, i only ask you to be grateful to India, not me, unlike you who thinks India owes a debt of gratitude to all Parsis including you for what someone else in your community did.

    Your arguments are now so pathetic, i actually thought you were someone to contend with before, but you seem to dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole you cannot possibly dig yourself out of.
    Perhaps that is why your mutual admiration society(Farzana, Raj and of course you) all of whose credibility has been destroyed are indulging in congratulating each other over petty points to save face. :) Quite amusing.

    And no the corruption and poverty hasn’t been removed but what i say has everything to do with changing that, building our nation. Your kind of Indians however are a part of the problem and not the solution. Hopefully you will come around.

  • farzana

    //So, if you or anyone else cannot find any records, does it mean it didnot happen and is a fable.//

    I know, how could you prove you’ve done parsis a meherbaani if this story were to prove baseless…so i can understand you having a special interest in this fable…Besides you don’t worry about why i accused some parsi priests of exploiting it… since you know nothing about the internal matters of the community…it will be beyond you…
    And like i already told you, you are free to keep believing it, if you wish to…
    As for my credibility…not that i have to prove it to you… but yet, whats your credibility to judge mine?

  • farzana

    //Perhaps that is why your mutual admiration society(Farzana, Raj and of course you) all of whose credibility has been destroyed are indulging in congratulating each other over petty points to save face. Quite amusing.//

    The amusing part is, the topic on this blog is the internal struggle between the two fractions [orthodox and moderates] within the parsi community…and nothing to do with India per se…You pop in and start giving us bhaashan on nationalism…May i know, according to you who on this blog, is anti-national ?!!!

    It seems you have lot of time in hand to mingle yourself in matters not directly related to you…Not that im stopping you from writing ten messages here everyday….good for PK…All i suggest is, try some pro-khalistani , pro-azadi, pro-naxal , pro-ulfa…pro arundhati roy discussion forums which are indeed anti-indians…you are needed there more than here.

    We are responsible citizens …we know our fundamental duties, just as we know our fundamental rights…and last thing we need is a paper tiger to judge us … b’byeee

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Jai,

    Thank you for your convoluted wisdom. I don’t think we are intellectually equal so I will not respond to the points in your post. Your idea of a discussion is taking it into the gutter and I will not follow you there.

    Call it membership in the mutual admiration society, but Farzana is right that the purpose of this blog is to discuss issues within the Parsi community. There was no discussion on nationality, nationalism or who owes what and to whom till you came along. You came in on Feb. 20 attacking the Parsi community. Not me or any other individual, but yes, the community. Please refer to your comments:
    “They’ve lived here for centuries now and if it wasn’t for India…”
    “It is India more specifically Hindu India that gave them refuge…”
    “I think they owe more to India…”
    Do you see the words “they”, “them”? You are attacking the community as a whole much as you deny it in your last two posts. Your posts have nothing to do with the issues the Parsis are debating on this site. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to a great Indian like yourself, but I think your powers of comprehension are very limited. You took umbrage at my standing up for my community.

    I will make this one request that you do not respond to me or my posts anymore since, according to you, I have dug myself in a hole. I don’t think you want to be in the same hole as I am. If you are smart, you will honor my request. Whether you are smart or not remains to be seen.

    Oh, by the way, your advice that I leave India is quite late. I did that 33 years ago. At a very young age, I realized that the future of India lay in dealing with people of your caliber: ones who consider crude language as civility, those who use violent (physical or verbal) tactics to achieve their goals, jingoism, chauvinists, an insecure citizenry in the majority, linguistic fanatics, and venal politicians. You can have it all.
    B’byeee!

  • Rathestar.

    Moderator,
    Do you not feel that the whole debate has gone off the tangent in the sense that instead of discussing pressing issues and internal conflicts within the community which was the subject matter on face book, the commentators have deviated totally on an issue of loyalty towards the country.? To me it makes no sense. Parsees took to FB because of self appointed money bags censors in the print media of the community by placing on saddle individuals as Editors who worship money more than their commitment to profession.To such individuals lure of money weighs more than being answerable to their own conscience.FaceBook was an alternative platform to air and exchange views due to black out bu community’s print media
    Before further ‘bhejanu dahi’ is ‘contributed’ by any boarder, my humble suggestion, put a big full point on this topic.
    Thanks.

    UPDATE: Rathestar…your advice is well taken and heeded to. Comments are closed. Thanks. arZan

  • sanjay sharma

    overwhelmingly the world’s scientific innovation is coming not from this historical area of trishadh so we old time cousins are somewhere on the second rung. creator is/has to be only one and us all creation is strong and weak for fulfilling some divine plan. 

    mentioning scientific innovation is important since art is everywhere. 

    sanjay sharma
    origins  lahore/new delhi/Now US
    Gotra  Bharadwaj/Vashistha