Comments on: Parsi Reformists Ready with a New Fire Temple Plan

By: dannyboy

dannyboy — Fri, 08 May 2009 15:03:49 +0000

Dear Delnavaz,
One of the earlier bloggers has rightly questioned whether the ‘Boy’ who was stopped from entering this particular Fire Temple was old enough to have had his Navjote performed. Secondly, what if instead of a male if it were a female who went behind the “Partition” pretending to have performed the Kasti and then entering, though NOT WEARING SUDREH or Kusti.In how many Fire temples do we find such type of Chowkidars, though I fully agree with you that as a principle none should be allowed entry into Fire Temples without such ‘devotees’ wearing the Sacred Thread and Sudreh.
We can not become conscience keepers for others. If they want to commit a sin, who are we to become guardian angels? I am a frequent visitor to many a Fire Temples in South Mumbai. I find the conduct of Panthaky Mr. Yezdi Aibara of Karani Fire Temple and his noble mother to be an excellent example for others to follow.Politeness with firmness is required not banal and odious behaviour to maintain decorum of a fire temple.

By: Delnavaz

Delnavaz — Fri, 08 May 2009 07:22:52 +0000

Hey Dannyboy, don’t jump the gun. pls read my email carefully. It is not solely addressed to you or anyone in particular. I am addressing 2 separte issues :- (a)boorish behaviour should not not tolerated (b) Sadreh kusti is a must. If and when detected that a person is not wearing one in the Fire Temple, he/she needs to be stopped.
Hope this clarifies matters & your BP level comes back to its normal level!
Cheers

By: dannyboy

dannyboy — Mon, 04 May 2009 15:19:17 +0000

Delnavaz,
Kindly read all previous posts of various individuals complaining of boorish behaviour of Panthaky’s wife. I have no where tried to sya that bacause she stopped a boy not wearing sadreh/kusti, she is boorish. What I have stated is that this one incident of corrective nature does not entitle the Wife of Panthaky to misbehave with all devotees. Do you approve of a Mobile phone within the precincts of Main Hall of the Fire temple being installed by the Panthaky.?Is it clear to you now?

By: Delnavaz

Delnavaz — Mon, 04 May 2009 12:48:03 +0000

Hi,
There is no reason for anyone to be boorish. However, she was absolutely correct in stoping a boy from entering a fire temple since he was not wearing a Sadreh & Kusti. Yes, there may be Parsees who would enter the Fire Temple without wearing a Sadreh & Kusti & it would not be possible to detect the same. However, since the Panthaky’s wife did notice this in this particular incident, it would be absurd not to take any action, just because many more might have entered the Agiary undetected. The Sadreh & Kusti are mandatory in our religion & the least one can do is refrain from entering the Fire Temple when not wearing the Sadreh & Kusti.

By: dannyboy

dannyboy — Sat, 02 May 2009 16:59:58 +0000

One post above states that he saw with his own eyes the wife of the Panthaky stopping a Parsee boy not wearing Sadreh & Kusti from enetering the Fire Temple.As if that act entitles any individual to be boorish. What if instead of a boy/man had it been a girl/woman not wearing Sadreh -Kusti and just going for a minute behind the partition pretending to have performed Kusti and then entering?Boarders should desist from preaching pompously and then running away.

By: piloo

piloo — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:11:48 +0000

Mr. Framji,
The Fire temple is currently undergoing repairs. The Holy Fire has been shifted. Wait till repairs are over, to see if some sense is dawned on the spouse of the Panthaky. As for Trustees who are recently appointed, one of them is a Navar, Martab Solicitor – Partner of a Leading Legal Firm. Another, is a Retd Judge of High Court, third a Businessman, fourth is one Mr. Mehta and fifth is one Mr. Master.

By: framji

framji — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 05:19:55 +0000

A Mobile phone in a Fire Temple? Unbelivable. Why should some devotees ‘request’ the priests’ wife to remove it. Does she not have basic common sense? Who are the Trustees – their names please. Are these trustees not able to enforce some discipline? Have they become Trustees just to lend their names and earn some fame? Remedy lies in removing the Panthaky if he can not control his own wife.
I have E mail addresses of our worthy high Priests and will let them know if full details are provided.

By: Anti Dhongidox

Anti Dhongidox — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:46:23 +0000

Dear Danesh,
I do not think, I have asked you to take up the matter with any one on this issue.So no question of putting you or anybody in Hot seat. A few weeks back, I saw one Parsee retaliate in anger with this woman.This is just for your information. Trust I am clear.Trust this issue remains within this blog and does not baloon into a controversy in Parsee Press.

By: Danesh

Danesh — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:58:43 +0000

Dear AD I have not asked you to pratice gandhigiri, that part of the comment was meant for everyone on the forum so please dont take it personally and she being very arrogant, cranky and insulting
she obviously cant practice gandhigiri because you need to be of a polite and firm nature to be able to do that.

also id like to re-emphasize that i am not defending anyone here because i am no lawyer but i will again request her to relocate the walky when i visit the agiary this friday.

and if she has been rude to you or cranky with you or anyone else in front of you why don’t you take it up with her?

I think i have made my stance very clear so please do not attempt to place me in the hot-seat and make me a party to the defense / offense because i have no locus standi in this matter and i am not going to defend the arrogant cranky/insulting behavior of anyone as it is none of my business.

I made some observations and suggested some remedies yesterday because i felt that there was too much of anger being vented out on this forum and i read Parsi Khabar very regularly so i thought i should say something because i too visit the agiary every friday morning before going to work.

i refuse to be drawn into making charges and counter charges.(That is one of the reasons i don’t comment ever because it always leads to someone making the wrong assumptions….. my comments are adjourned sine die)

By: An Observer.

An Observer. — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:28:37 +0000

Is this issue regarding a Grant Road (East) Agiary? If so yes,outside the Fire Temple, I too have heard scores of Zorastrians who come to pray on Fridays complaining of offensive conduct of the wife of Panthaky. Nearly a thousand Zorastrians must be visiting this holy place on each Friday.If even a dozen are antagonised by her conduct, there is certainly something wrong in her upbringing.It is not an issue of Liberals/Reformists v/s Orthodox / Traditionalists as Dhongidox portrays.There are Atashbehrams and innumerable Agiaries in Mumbai and I have never observed such Bad conduct elsewhere.

By: An Observer.

An Observer. — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:26:12 +0000

By: piloo

piloo — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:33:25 +0000

Messers Anti Dhongidox and Dhongidox,
I can infer the Fire temple both of you have discussed.
Mr. Anti Dhongidox, I too am a frequent visitor to this place of worship and find that besides the Lady Trustee referred to by you, another Gentleman Trustee too visits this Agiary in mornings but with a Handerchief covering his head. The wife of the Panthaky, does not insists on this Trustee putting on a Cap. But her ‘Rules’ for other devotees are that Topi is must.Some uniformity?
Secondly, I have observed that 2 Chasniwalas enter the place of worship without performing Kashti. They are exempt.
What Anti Dhongidox has mentioned is about Wapiz scholar not questioning the installation of Mobile Walky phone (Tata or Reliance). Mr. Dongidox, you Sir have conveniently not touched this point.Besides you will concede that it is the prerogative of the Panthaky or Mobed on duty to enforce observance of rituals by the devotees not that of his spouse. Am I correct?

By: Anti Dhongidox

Anti Dhongidox — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:30:45 +0000

No discomfort has been caused to me so no need to be apologetic.If the concerned lady has prevented a boy from entering the Fire temple, I presume the boy was old enough and not a pre Navjote Child.Definitely, no person should be allowed to enter the Agiary without performing Kusti.
Why do you not ask this lady to practice Gandhigiri while dealing with people.If she can reprimand those who fail to switch off their Cell phones and rightly so, it smacks of arrogance of highest order to install a Reliance Walky in the Main Hall. Observance of Tarikats is important but cantankerousness, insulting behaviour are different issues. Pl do not mix up issues and try to defend arrogance as though the Holy place is a sole proprietory concern.

By: Anti Dhongidox

Anti Dhongidox — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:21:36 +0000

What has been pointed out is Double Standards. If you talk about Gandhigiri, what prevents the conerned lady to practice Ganhigiri.You say that a boy without Sadra and Kusti was prevented from entering. Very correct but what if the child’s Navjote was yet to be performed.Observing Tarikats is one thing and I am one with you but cantankerousness, holier than thou attitude, behaving as if the Agiary is her own sole proprietory concern and double standards can not be brushed aside. If she can reprimand devotees who wrongly DO NOT switch Off their Cell Phones, it smacks of arrogance of the highest order to Openly install a Reliance Walky in the Hall. Do you still disagree?

By: Dhongidox

Dhongidox — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:34:16 +0000

Interesting conversation going on in here. in reply to AD i think i know the agiary in question id like to state that the walky is a definitely a hindrance but id also like to state one thing that i have seen with my own eyes and that is she has asked a boy to perform his kusti before going into the fire temple and it turned out that he was not wearing either a sadra or a kusti, so you decide whether he should have been allowed inside or not.

By the way I will make it a point to request (again) that the phone be shifted elsewhere.( I believe a lot of people requesting politely will definitely lead to some positive result… remember gandhigiri?)

it is a fashion to deride people or to label them as orthodox or reformist but do we ever try to find out why they are so? I am sure that no matter how anti-religion a person might seem but there is the fear of God somewhere inside him/her, i refuse to believe that a person would not spare a thought before/after committing any deed may it be good or bad.

we are a small community why are we mudslinging….. why is manoj nair so interested in us that suddenly he keeps on dishing out article after article on the parsis…. Our religion is so great that it recognizes the right of each person each human being to worship in his/her own way why do we want to force our beliefs on other people. Cyrus the great freed the Jews from captivity…… why should the orthodox or the reformists try to enforce their view on each other each person has a mind and each place has its rules so if we cannot follow the same and want to blaze a trail so be it… Let there be 2 separate groups of parsis Orthodox and reformist time will tell who was right and who was not…. but that dosent mean that in the present we should have a tussle between the two.

My best wishes to the people who are trying to erect a paak makan for the intermarried zoroastrians. We need this to happen so that the orthodox and the reformists may finally live in peace because disharmony causes evil in the universe and it is a zoroastrians first duty to fight against evil.

…and parsi culture might be 99% hindu but the values were definitely zoroastrian (until sometime ago when we conveniently forgot our past heritage our religious beliefs which guided us as we led our lives) and the suffering that we have been subjected to after the arab invasion in Iran. It is sad that we have forgotten the sacrifices of our forefathers and the zoroastrians who were strung to their death by their kusti for refusing to convert under the sword.

History never forgives people who forget history.

yaad rakho be bilari ni vachma vandro faavi jai.

(if you get angry or agitated by reading this post i am sorry for causing you discomfort … but i just felt the urge to write today)

By: Anti Dhongidox

Anti Dhongidox — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:30:43 +0000

In the City (Mumbai) there is a renowned fire temple, with devotees overflowing on Fridays and Behram Roj The Panthaky of this Fire temple has a cantankerous spouse who quarrels with all devotees for indiscretions, genuine or imaginary.She even goes to the extent of telling devotees how they should sit. This woman behaves as though this holy place of worship happens to be her proprietory concern and has installed a Reliance Walky Telephone within the precincts i.e. in the Main Hall.adjacent to sancum sanctorum. Reliance Walky has been classified as a Mobile. While rightly, the devotees are urged to switch off their mobiles, this Reliance Walky running on air waves disturbs/distracts the devotees with musical Ring Tones.Two years back she was on her knees requesting devotees to support a petition to allow her husband to continue as a Panthaky.
And ironically a WAPIZ Scholar (a BPP Trustee)who frequents this Agiary does not find this Walky phone in the Fire temple 7 feet away from Keblah as cantraray to religious tenets. Of the 4 Agiary Trustees recently appointed in this Fire Temple, only one Lady Trustee is found working diligently and though a devout Zoroastrian, she finds nothing objectionable in Reliance Walky in the main hall of the Agiary. Of course the “Scholar” also turns a Nelson Eye because he is treated as more than equal.How can we expect our Priests to earn respect from youngsters with this type of double standards being practiced.? Any wonder, people want a separate Agiary for those inter married.

By: Zubin K Patel

Zubin K Patel — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:50:19 +0000

As a Parsi, I am married to another caste as I was caught with epilepsy, considered a sister to leprosy in our community; specially when it caught of me 22 years ago. I served /afs/, an org. with a cluster of Parsis who would not even eat besides me. My widowed mother begged for a girl to marry me. NO, was the answer. Then an old-time friend offered to settle down with me and today I have a sweet 7-year daughter whose growth is my aim in life. I’d be indebted for two things: a) my spouse’s entry into a fire-temple, and b)a house in the Nirlon Colony.
Thank you.

By: danish

danish — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 11:29:00 +0000

Ms. Delnavaz,
Thanks for your reply. Essence of my earlier post was to emphasise the fact that Parsses have evolved change with changing times and were not rigid.If we could change from handspun cloth to Tata Mulmul and now even Terrycot Sadras, why some bigoted minds raise non existent issues and seek to debar those married outside the community from offering prayers in a place of worship if they have not renounced the religion they were born in.In their eyes a Parsee female of easy virtue is more religious than a Parsee female married to a non Zoroastrian. If there had been flexibility in this regard, there would have been no need for a new Fire Temple.

By: phirozaban

phirozaban — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 03:28:47 +0000

Delnavaz,
What I have mentioned is the language of the Notice displayed outside Fire Temples “Admission For Parsees only” I have not stated that Parsee Catholics enter fire temples, what I have stated is that as per the language A Parsee Catholic ‘can’ enter a fire temple but a Zoroastrian from place other than born in India can not. I have used the word ‘can’ in my earlier post.
Futher, I have pointed out the diktat on use of Doongerwadi Bunglis at Mumbai being not allowed to Parsees who opt for alternate method of disposal as an illustration of double standards adopted by the community elders. Thus we have one set of ‘restrictions’ for Mumbai/ Surat and another criterion for other places.
Even those who die abroad and buried/cremated can get their 4 days ceremonies performed in Mumbai Fire Temples.

By: Delnavaz

Delnavaz — Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:19:24 +0000

The Sudreh Kushti were invented by our Prophet about 8000 years ago. What Iran’s topography was at that time is something no one can be sure of. Though textile mills were established in India in the 19th century, people in India or the world were obviously not waiting for the Industrial Revolution to wear clothes. Cottage industries existed & cloth was woven by hand. Before what we today called the’Jantaar’there were other instruments on which the kushti was woven. If you read ‘Arda Viraf’a religious text which must have been written around 226-240 AD during the Sassanian period, wherein a description of after life is mentioned, you will find several references to the sudreh kushti. Hope this helps