Bombay Parsi Punchayet chairman alleged the institute’s head Meher Master-Moos was indulging in ‘wrongful’ conversion, which is reserved for only sons of priests
By Manoj R Nair and Ram Parmar / Mumbai Mirror
A group of angry Parsis from Mumbai, including chairman of the Bombay Parsi Punchayet (BPP), stormed a religious institute near Sanjan on the Maharashtra-Gujarat border on Friday morning to stop an alleged conversion of a 48-year old Russian into a Zoroastrian priest.
The Zoroastrian College, which is run by Mumbai-based Meher Master-Moos, 67, gets visitors from Tajikistan, Iran and Russia, many of whom go there to do short courses in the Zoroastrian religion. On Friday, however, it was a scene of mayhem after a mob of 45-odd people, including six women, stormed the premises.
Resham Singh, a guard at the institute, said, “Around 45 people came in eight cars at 11.30 am and demanded access to the premises. When I did not open the gate, they forced their way through a smaller entrance. Later, they threw around chairs, destroyed furniture and assaulted staff members.”
Trouble began when news of an alleged conversion ceremony being performed for Russian Mikhail Chispiakov – who is in India on a three-month tourist visa – reached BPP trustee and chairman Dinshaw Mehta, who decided to go to Zoroastrian College and protest against the act along with some other community members from Surat.
“Our religion permits only sons of priests to train for priesthood. Training a Russian to become a Zoroastrian priest is going too far.
Meher Moos has long been known for her Infamous Life and Doings… People of the Captain Colony in Bombay and many more around know about it. This is very much expected off her. Sad, very sad.
I hope the police was informed and I hope that these old dogmatic Parsi gentlemen get punished by the laws of Hindustan … the world’s greatest democratic republic!
I am from a dasturji family and must confess that either my grandfather, my father and uncles, nor my brother had interest and time to be a dasturji.
It’s time that the old-fashioned care-takers of the Zorastrian/Parsi religion give back their hat and leave the path free for the young and innovative believers of Ahura Mazda!
Jeannie Antia
Meher Moos has long been known for her Infamous Life and Doings… People of the Captain Colony in Bombay and many more around know about it. This is very much expected off her. Sad, very sad.
And so it has happened. The Parsi janta has demonstrated the depths to which their much touted Parsipanu has sunk. I never thought I’d love to see the day when we Parsis would draw our inspiration from the Shiv Sena and the MNS. Kudos.
The object of their violent fury was a Russian graduate of the Zoroastrian College – who undoubtedly is far more knowledgeable about the ancient religion than the self styled defenders of the faith who unquestioningly follow the diktats of a few uncompromising theocrats and their lay supporters. These “saviours” have arbitrarily appointed themselves as the sole guardians and arbiters of the religion – in a style more reminiscent of ayatollahs than the keepers of a faith once acclaimed for its defence of personal freedoms and its tolerance of all other faiths. The Russian gentleman was already spreading the teachings of Zarathustra in St. Petersburg to those who expressed a genuine admiration of the Prophet’s philosophy. He now, quite logically, expressed a desire to be formally inducted into the religion he found so spiritually fulfilling.
For the marauding zealots from Bombay, this was sufficient justification to unleash acts of uncivilized hooliganism. I do propose to get into the debate about conversion, which seems to defy resolution. All I will comment is that, in my personal opinion, the yawning divide between the pro and anti-conversion groups stems from, perhaps, willful misunderstanding. There may be merit in the argument that all Parsis should preferably adhere to the Zoroastrian faith, but it does not necessarily follow that all Zoroastrians must be Parsis. The Westerners and others who have embraced the Zoroastrian faith are not demanding to be called Parsis, but they are perfectly entitled to be co-religionists of the Prophet who has inspired them.
The above, however, is not the real issue here. It is the unyielding intolerance and violent reaction to an act that does not in any way denigrate or compromise the religion. It is an incomprehensible mindset that seeks to restrict the teachings of a great saint and philosopher whose mission on earth was the direct opposite.
This shameful incident is also an illustration of the declining standards of broadmindedness, propriety and sophistication in a community that was once praised as the crème de la crème of Indian society. The first glimpses of this became visible during the Panchayat elections in 2008, when scurrilous anonymous emails and blatant pandering to traditional Prasi indulgences became the order of the day. Perhaps the herding of the bulk of Bombay Parsis into exclusive colonies has fostered a sort of ghetto mentality – a belief that their preservation as a race is dependant on insulating themselves from outside influences and adopting a sense of uniqueness and superiority that goes under the rather presumptuous nomenclature of Parsipanu. There is justifiable anxiety among the Parsi community over their rapidly declining numbers. I, for one, am more concerned about the deterioration in quality – civility, tolerance and just plain class.
I hope Dinshaw Mehta and his thugs will pay for all damages incurred including medical care for those injured. How ridiculous for grown people to act in such a violent way. Where in the Avesta is such behavior encouraged or even accepted? Absolutely disgusting.
The Parsis in Bombay are in huge trouble if they are under the guidance and leadership of such barbaric individuals.
Any human being should be allowed the freedom to practice the religion of their choice. People got mad when Galileo said the Earth wasn’t at the center of the Universe. Now these people are mad when someone embraces people of a different color, race, genealogy and allows them to learn the teachings of Zoroaster. Just because something was considered right in the past doesn’t mean it is right and cannot be proved wrong and must be blindly followed. I want to see if there is a single Parsi out there who can look me in the eyes and with all honesty tell me that Zoroaster believed his teachings and faith in the one truth and one God was reserved for only a selected people. How does it harm anyone if a Russian wants to practice Zoroastrianism? Can a single Parsi give me one example of how he will be harmed or negatively affected by a Russian mobed in Moscow?
We are just two decimal places larger then the almost extinct tiger population in this country and yet we willfully want to walk down the path that will lead us in the same direction. I have some simple questions. Are Parsis having some copyright on Zoarastrian religion? Why are we practicing caste system, when our Constitution says we are secular? Which Visas were our ancestors holding when we found refuge on these shores? It is today a simple trial by fire to take a DNA test to see if we really are uncontaminated with “local” blood. How many BPP members and others who speak of purity have subscribed to these tests.
Our religion is one of the oldest and the best. Help preserve it, even if it done in Brazil, Russia or the Moon.
It is surprising that they resorted to assault and destroying furniture (as per the article). This should not be condoned.
Why is this institute taunting the community by carrying out such acts?
Also, is priesthood by lineage another tradition among Parsis or is it covered by religious practice instructions in the Gathas and/or other Zoroastrian religious texts. Do we have any ruling or instruction on this by the Iranian council or Indian council?
I hope the police was informed and I hope that these old dogmatic Parsi gentlemen get punished by the laws of Hindustan … the world’s greatest democratic republic!
I am from a dasturji family and must confess that either my grandfather, my father and uncles, nor my brother had interest and time to be a dasturji.
It’s time that the old-fashioned care-takers of the Zorastrian/Parsi religion give back their hat and leave the path free for the young and innovative believers of Ahura Mazda!
Jeannie Antia
I am not surprised at the action. It is increasingly obvious that our community is becoming a hotbed of intolerance and fanaticism. I fear that this is only the first of many more such incidents to come. It is also another step towards what I have said would happen all along – the division of the religion and the community into different “sects”.
And so it has happened. The Parsi janta has demonstrated the depths to which their much touted Parsipanu has sunk. I never thought I’d love to see the day when we Parsis would draw our inspiration from the Shiv Sena and the MNS. Kudos.
The object of their violent fury was a Russian graduate of the Zoroastrian College – who undoubtedly is far more knowledgeable about the ancient religion than the self styled defenders of the faith who unquestioningly follow the diktats of a few uncompromising theocrats and their lay supporters. These “saviours” have arbitrarily appointed themselves as the sole guardians and arbiters of the religion – in a style more reminiscent of ayatollahs than the keepers of a faith once acclaimed for its defence of personal freedoms and its tolerance of all other faiths. The Russian gentleman was already spreading the teachings of Zarathustra in St. Petersburg to those who expressed a genuine admiration of the Prophet’s philosophy. He now, quite logically, expressed a desire to be formally inducted into the religion he found so spiritually fulfilling.
For the marauding zealots from Bombay, this was sufficient justification to unleash acts of uncivilized hooliganism. I do propose to get into the debate about conversion, which seems to defy resolution. All I will comment is that, in my personal opinion, the yawning divide between the pro and anti-conversion groups stems from, perhaps, willful misunderstanding. There may be merit in the argument that all Parsis should preferably adhere to the Zoroastrian faith, but it does not necessarily follow that all Zoroastrians must be Parsis. The Westerners and others who have embraced the Zoroastrian faith are not demanding to be called Parsis, but they are perfectly entitled to be co-religionists of the Prophet who has inspired them.
The above, however, is not the real issue here. It is the unyielding intolerance and violent reaction to an act that does not in any way denigrate or compromise the religion. It is an incomprehensible mindset that seeks to restrict the teachings of a great saint and philosopher whose mission on earth was the direct opposite.
This shameful incident is also an illustration of the declining standards of broadmindedness, propriety and sophistication in a community that was once praised as the crème de la crème of Indian society. The first glimpses of this became visible during the Panchayat elections in 2008, when scurrilous anonymous emails and blatant pandering to traditional Prasi indulgences became the order of the day. Perhaps the herding of the bulk of Bombay Parsis into exclusive colonies has fostered a sort of ghetto mentality – a belief that their preservation as a race is dependant on insulating themselves from outside influences and adopting a sense of uniqueness and superiority that goes under the rather presumptuous nomenclature of Parsipanu. There is justifiable anxiety among the Parsi community over their rapidly declining numbers. I, for one, am more concerned about the deterioration in quality – civility, tolerance and just plain class.
I hope Dinshaw Mehta and his thugs will pay for all damages incurred including medical care for those injured. How ridiculous for grown people to act in such a violent way. Where in the Avesta is such behavior encouraged or even accepted? Absolutely disgusting.
The Parsis in Bombay are in huge trouble if they are under the guidance and leadership of such barbaric individuals.
Any human being should be allowed the freedom to practice the religion of their choice. People got mad when Galileo said the Earth wasn’t at the center of the Universe. Now these people are mad when someone embraces people of a different color, race, genealogy and allows them to learn the teachings of Zoroaster. Just because something was considered right in the past doesn’t mean it is right and cannot be proved wrong and must be blindly followed. I want to see if there is a single Parsi out there who can look me in the eyes and with all honesty tell me that Zoroaster believed his teachings and faith in the one truth and one God was reserved for only a selected people. How does it harm anyone if a Russian wants to practice Zoroastrianism? Can a single Parsi give me one example of how he will be harmed or negatively affected by a Russian mobed in Moscow?
We are just two decimal places larger then the almost extinct tiger population in this country and yet we willfully want to walk down the path that will lead us in the same direction. I have some simple questions. Are Parsis having some copyright on Zoarastrian religion? Why are we practicing caste system, when our Constitution says we are secular? Which Visas were our ancestors holding when we found refuge on these shores? It is today a simple trial by fire to take a DNA test to see if we really are uncontaminated with “local” blood. How many BPP members and others who speak of purity have subscribed to these tests.
Our religion is one of the oldest and the best. Help preserve it, even if it done in Brazil, Russia or the Moon.
It is surprising that they resorted to assault and destroying furniture (as per the article). This should not be condoned.
Why is this institute taunting the community by carrying out such acts?
Also, is priesthood by lineage another tradition among Parsis or is it covered by religious practice instructions in the Gathas and/or other Zoroastrian religious texts. Do we have any ruling or instruction on this by the Iranian council or Indian council?
I am not surprised at the action. It is increasingly obvious that our community is becoming a hotbed of intolerance and fanaticism. I fear that this is only the first of many more such incidents to come. It is also another step towards what I have said would happen all along – the division of the religion and the community into different “sects”.
Firoze Hirjikaka has eloquently expressed the decay in the state of affairs of our community.
CHEAP GIMMICK for a few minutes of notoriety thats all by such vandalism.
Q 1. Would Mikhail Chispiakov have bothered to enter any of our places of worship, much less practice?. Would we have allowed him entry?
Answer is a big No.
Q.2. What did these ‘saviours’ do when Navjotes of adult females were performed during last few years in Denmark and Norway?
Answer: Nothing.
Some conduct tours to Iran, other endlessly pour sour language against moderate Parsis but these persons do not have the guts to take up the issue of Kaba with Iranian authorities.
“This shameful incident is also an illustration of the declining standards of broadmindedness, propriety and sophistication in a community that was once praised as the crème de la crème of Indian society”
NO FIROZE, IT IS NO LONGER ‘CREME’ . IT IS STINKING CURD. “Bhejanu Dahi’ as we call it in Gujarati.These persons have nothing else that is concrete to do or show. Thus they want to add such ‘Nataks’ in their Performance Appraisal.
well well well. violence against the basic tenets of the community, destroying our culture, selling our heritage is all very fine. But when someone stands up to prevent this – its wrong. WOW. so convenient of the liberals to paint us as goondas when they go around insulting, insinuating and abusing everything thats parsi. why don’t they call themselves neo-classical-zoroians or something? why hang on to becoming zoroastrians? Have the guts? Go ahead – make your own religion – don’t desecrate a 3000 year tradition and remark that we shouldn’t protest… sheesh the audacity.
Be rational or become extinct.
To Jeny M,
…how did your forefathers become Zoroastrians if conversion is not allowed in Zoroastrianism??
Firoze Hirjikaka has eloquently expressed the decay in the state of affairs of our community.
CHEAP GIMMICK for a few minutes of notoriety thats all by such vandalism.
Q 1. Would Mikhail Chispiakov have bothered to enter any of our places of worship, much less practice?. Would we have allowed him entry?
Answer is a big No.
Q.2. What did these ‘saviours’ do when Navjotes of adult females were performed during last few years in Denmark and Norway?
Answer: Nothing.
Some conduct tours to Iran, other endlessly pour sour language against moderate Parsis but these persons do not have the guts to take up the issue of Kaba with Iranian authorities.
“This shameful incident is also an illustration of the declining standards of broadmindedness, propriety and sophistication in a community that was once praised as the crème de la crème of Indian society”
NO FIROZE, IT IS NO LONGER ‘CREME’ . IT IS STINKING CURD. “Bhejanu Dahi’ as we call it in Gujarati.These persons have nothing else that is concrete to do or show. Thus they want to add such ‘Nataks’ in their Performance Appraisal.
Now, as usual let the devil’s disciples from Dadar CAN NOT say that all the above posts are authored by one and the same person under different ID’s.
One who endlessly deploys words/alleges like ‘NIT PICKING’ (must be having Dandruff problem), ‘Coterie’ ” would now be wondering how so many messengers have condemned this vandalism. Perhaps his ‘thirst’ to condemn the word CHANGE would now have got a jolt
Dear Rohinton, when a person is a recipient of blood donation, do they verify if it is from a Parsi donor.?
The problem is that persons from certain colonies voted not by exercising their mental faculties but by being swayed by ‘quality of BHONAS’ and so the community has no option but to endure what it can not cure.
The end result will be that many ordained priests will get attracted by lure of making a fast buck,get their passports ready and visit foreign countries for outright conversions and our great Saviours will just suck their thumbs.
And now coming to Jame’s ‘balanced’ presentation, one wonders why this report was printed as a News item and not charged for as an Advertisement.
well well well. violence against the basic tenets of the community, destroying our culture, selling our heritage is all very fine. But when someone stands up to prevent this – its wrong. WOW. so convenient of the liberals to paint us as goondas when they go around insulting, insinuating and abusing everything thats parsi. why don’t they call themselves neo-classical-zoroians or something? why hang on to becoming zoroastrians? Have the guts? Go ahead – make your own religion – don’t desecrate a 3000 year tradition and remark that we shouldn’t protest… sheesh the audacity.
Type your comment here…I fully Agree with Anita, that the Police should now file the FIR & take Strict Actions against those who tried to illegaly entered the Private Institution.
The law should catch up with those Narrow Minded Parsees who are trying to live in the 16th Cen,
As the Time moves on we all have to change as per the Time.
There is nothing wrong if any other outsider wants o convert himself or herself into the Parsee fold.
We should nowadays allowsuch convertion as after all the Parsees are decling & a time will come when the world would get to know from the Museum that once there was a Race called the Parsees.
Also the offsprings of the Non Parsee Fathers or Non Parsee Mothers are far more Intelleigent than the offsprings of the Parsee Mother & Father,that’s the reason that the Old Supertisous Parsees should allow the non Parsees into our fold & Increase the Parsee Population.
Due Hope that the Old Fasioned Parsees see the writings on the wall.
Jai Hind.
Ronnie Patel.
Be rational or become extinct.
To Jeny M,
…how did your forefathers become Zoroastrians if conversion is not allowed in Zoroastrianism??
Firoze Hirjikaka has raised a valid point when he says that it is not necessary fo9r all Zoroastrians to be Parsees.
A community can not claim MONOPOLY over the faith. If it does claim monopoly it will be classified as totally stupid in the eyes of sister communities. Yes Sir, you have made a laughing stock of the community. Zoroastrians were made to flee Persia and in India they became known as Parsis. Those who were left behind had to embrace Islam. Now when the clock has turned a full circle and it is payback time, the community in Maharashtra & Gujarat is acting in a manner detrimental to the interest of their faith. Ancestors of Tejiks and others were Zoroastrians but had to succumb to the terror of the Sword. No body says that these neo zoros be allowed access to places of worship in India.For some to claim ownership of the Faith is the height of stupidity. It is absence of agenda for the welfare of the Community that has prompted these politician cum trustees to embark on vandalism as they have no performance worth recording to blow their trumpets.
Sorry Bawas, it is your leaders who have let you down and you are mute spectators to subjugation by following like sheeps the dictates of politicians.
This is not to justify or commend the action of Moos but just to make you realize what sister communities think of such dramas.I am writing this as I have many Parsi friends and acquaintances who are known for their broadmindedness and not boorishness.
Pardon me for plainspeak
Now, as usual let the devil’s disciples from Dadar CAN NOT say that all the above posts are authored by one and the same person under different ID’s.
One who endlessly deploys words/alleges like ‘NIT PICKING’ (must be having Dandruff problem), ‘Coterie’ “ would now be wondering how so many messengers have condemned this vandalism. Perhaps his ‘thirst’ to condemn the word CHANGE would now have got a jolt
Dear Rohinton, when a person is a recipient of blood donation, do they verify if it is from a Parsi donor.?
The problem is that persons from certain colonies voted not by exercising their mental faculties but by being swayed by ‘quality of BHONAS’ and so the community has no option but to endure what it can not cure.
The end result will be that many ordained priests will get attracted by lure of making a fast buck,get their passports ready and visit foreign countries for outright conversions and our great Saviours will just suck their thumbs.
And now coming to Jame’s ‘balanced’ presentation, one wonders why this report was printed as a News item and not charged for as an Advertisement.
I fully condemn these barbaric attacks. It indeed sheds a poor light on our Parsi community.
@ Jeannie Antia Wimmer : Aunty with all due respect, but not a long time ago you were talking about how people are not adhering to the religion? Which side are you on? Just wondering. :)
Tandorosti,
Zara.
Mr. Shehzad Irani,
No body is even remotely suggesting permitting such Russians & Tejiks to be allowed entry into our Religious places. So can you elaborate how you assume that study of our Religion would destroy our culture or heritage. Such a foreign convert person can not enter our Agiaries.Thats certain nor would he be interested in becoming a priest in our Agiaries given the pathetic remuneration local priests earn.
Even if the “END” was justified the means i.e. trespass of a institute is uncondonable.
This issue has nothing to do with Reformists or Liberals.
Can you, me or for that matter anybody do anything if the some person starts a similar type of institution with same activities outside India. Emotional outbursts are no solution.Likes of us can NOT claim to be sole proprietors of Zoroastrianism.
In West, our religion is practiced in a different way than in Mumbai.
Lastly, if at all the activities of the Institute were against the laws of the land, why a case was not filed. ?
Type your comment here…I fully Agree with Anita, that the Police should now file the FIR & take Strict Actions against those who tried to illegaly entered the Private Institution.
The law should catch up with those Narrow Minded Parsees who are trying to live in the 16th Cen,
As the Time moves on we all have to change as per the Time.
There is nothing wrong if any other outsider wants o convert himself or herself into the Parsee fold.
We should nowadays allowsuch convertion as after all the Parsees are decling & a time will come when the world would get to know from the Museum that once there was a Race called the Parsees.
Also the offsprings of the Non Parsee Fathers or Non Parsee Mothers are far more Intelleigent than the offsprings of the Parsee Mother & Father,that’s the reason that the Old Supertisous Parsees should allow the non Parsees into our fold & Increase the Parsee Population.
Due Hope that the Old Fasioned Parsees see the writings on the wall.
Jai Hind.
Ronnie Patel.
Firoze Hirjikaka has raised a valid point when he says that it is not necessary fo9r all Zoroastrians to be Parsees.
A community can not claim MONOPOLY over the faith. If it does claim monopoly it will be classified as totally stupid in the eyes of sister communities. Yes Sir, you have made a laughing stock of the community. Zoroastrians were made to flee Persia and in India they became known as Parsis. Those who were left behind had to embrace Islam. Now when the clock has turned a full circle and it is payback time, the community in Maharashtra & Gujarat is acting in a manner detrimental to the interest of their faith. Ancestors of Tejiks and others were Zoroastrians but had to succumb to the terror of the Sword. No body says that these neo zoros be allowed access to places of worship in India.For some to claim ownership of the Faith is the height of stupidity. It is absence of agenda for the welfare of the Community that has prompted these politician cum trustees to embark on vandalism as they have no performance worth recording to blow their trumpets.
Sorry Bawas, it is your leaders who have let you down and you are mute spectators to subjugation by following like sheeps the dictates of politicians.
This is not to justify or commend the action of Moos but just to make you realize what sister communities think of such dramas.I am writing this as I have many Parsi friends and acquaintances who are known for their broadmindedness and not boorishness.
Pardon me for plainspeak
I fully condemn these barbaric attacks. It indeed sheds a poor light on our Parsi community.
@ Jeannie Antia Wimmer : Aunty with all due respect, but not a long time ago you were talking about how people are not adhering to the religion? Which side are you on? Just wondering. :)
Tandorosti,
Zara.
Mr. Shehzad Irani,
No body is even remotely suggesting permitting such Russians & Tejiks to be allowed entry into our Religious places. So can you elaborate how you assume that study of our Religion would destroy our culture or heritage. Such a foreign convert person can not enter our Agiaries.Thats certain nor would he be interested in becoming a priest in our Agiaries given the pathetic remuneration local priests earn.
Even if the “END” was justified the means i.e. trespass of a institute is uncondonable.
This issue has nothing to do with Reformists or Liberals.
Can you, me or for that matter anybody do anything if the some person starts a similar type of institution with same activities outside India. Emotional outbursts are no solution.Likes of us can NOT claim to be sole proprietors of Zoroastrianism.
In West, our religion is practiced in a different way than in Mumbai.
Lastly, if at all the activities of the Institute were against the laws of the land, why a case was not filed. ?
I am so glad to see such anger towards acts of violence within our community. I wish those of you in Bombay, who feel our religion has been hijacked by self-proclaimed prophets and high priests, would be more vocal. It is important for your voices to be heard and recognized. There are many like you but either fear or apathy seem to guide your inaction. Please SPEAK UP. Our community is worth saving – mostly from itself.
I live in the U.S. and am proud to say that Zoroastrianism is going and growing strong in North America. I am a woman from a priestly Parsi family but have married an American. I will not let anyone tell me that my kids are not Zarathushti. There are many priests willing to do Navjotes and weddings of and for us ‘half bloods’. I hold the power of introducing my kids to Zoroastrianism or not. Whether Mr. Mehta, Khojeste, or other goons except my kids or not is of NO consequence to me or my family. I have decided to introduce my faith to my kids and wonderful husband because I think it is the right thing to do.
Shehzad, how does conversion of the willing relate to violence? How does it go against the very tenets of our religion? Do you know the tenets of our religion? Standing up for what you believe in is one thing – beating others into believing it too is entirely another. That is WRONG no matter which way you look at it.
Also, are you trying to preserve being Parsi or Zarathushti? I think you are confusing the two. You mention us liberals insulting everything Parsi but want to preserve that which is 3000 years old. This argument does not hold good on many fronts – historically, culturally, factually, emotionally,…
If you are so interested in preserving our 3000 year old religion head over to Iran. Your fight is in the wrong place. You and those like-minded need to contact the Iranian government asking for them to hard over all things Zoroastrian. Put your money where your mouth is. Actually, to put it bluntly, put your XXXXX on the front line. Only then have the audacity to mouth off such nonsense!!! Yes, I am using strong language but I am tired of not calling a spade a spade.
Sheeesh your insanity!!!
Zara,
It is one thing to staunchly adhere to ones Religion and another thing to censure crude behaviour. And practicing Religion as per the scriptures is different then allowing fake interpreters to dictate their own version like autocrats and forcing their interpretation to be the only ‘correct’ version.You would surely not have missed the innumerable double speak DHONGEES calling others who raise pertinent questions as ‘irreligious’. These ‘self styled pious saviours’ of our Religion dislike ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ of customs and want everybody to ape them unquestioningly. To them custom is synonymous with religion.
Regards,
ANTI DHONGIDOX. Words ANTI in bold for enabling some one visually impaired to read clearly.
@Nairika K. Cornett
you are right – i support the case of the parsi-zoroastrian. Which is different from your version of universal-zoroastrian. You may not believe it but there are people of foreign origin attempting to enter places of worship and trying all ways to align themselves with parsi-zoroastrians. For your information as it stands – there are more people in the world who call themselves zoroastrians than there are parsi/irani-zoroastrians. So if it comes to a vote count, parsi/irani zoroastrians would turn in a minority, and hence with that minority will go traditions, culture language… which is very convenient to the reformist agenda – which is what we are against.
secondly, to your point about tenets of our religion – please get your doctrine in order. It is useless to discuss religion with you if you understand conversion also a zoroastrian doctrine.
and thirdly – and most importantly – the main reason why we are in india is because we want to protect our ethnic minority, and the religion. That is why our ancestors came to india – because we were being butchered and discriminated against in the land of our creation. Much as we might like to be martyrs, being martyrs does not result in protecting our religion. So balls or no balls, discretion IS the better part of valor.
Though there is no doubt in my mind that breaking up tables and bones is no way to enforce our view. It is barbarous.
Hope i clarify our stand.
I am so glad to see such anger towards acts of violence within our community. I wish those of you in Bombay, who feel our religion has been hijacked by self-proclaimed prophets and high priests, would be more vocal. It is important for your voices to be heard and recognized. There are many like you but either fear or apathy seem to guide your inaction. Please SPEAK UP. Our community is worth saving – mostly from itself.
I live in the U.S. and am proud to say that Zoroastrianism is going and growing strong in North America. I am a woman from a priestly Parsi family but have married an American. I will not let anyone tell me that my kids are not Zarathushti. There are many priests willing to do Navjotes and weddings of and for us ‘half bloods’. I hold the power of introducing my kids to Zoroastrianism or not. Whether Mr. Mehta, Khojeste, or other goons except my kids or not is of NO consequence to me or my family. I have decided to introduce my faith to my kids and wonderful husband because I think it is the right thing to do.
Shehzad, how does conversion of the willing relate to violence? How does it go against the very tenets of our religion? Do you know the tenets of our religion? Standing up for what you believe in is one thing – beating others into believing it too is entirely another. That is WRONG no matter which way you look at it.
Also, are you trying to preserve being Parsi or Zarathushti? I think you are confusing the two. You mention us liberals insulting everything Parsi but want to preserve that which is 3000 years old. This argument does not hold good on many fronts – historically, culturally, factually, emotionally,…
If you are so interested in preserving our 3000 year old religion head over to Iran. Your fight is in the wrong place. You and those like-minded need to contact the Iranian government asking for them to hard over all things Zoroastrian. Put your money where your mouth is. Actually, to put it bluntly, put your XXXXX on the front line. Only then have the audacity to mouth off such nonsense!!! Yes, I am using strong language but I am tired of not calling a spade a spade.
Sheeesh your insanity!!!
Congrats to likes of Nairika K. Cornett for their outspoken remarks. Parsis are known for tolerance and broadmindedness. Those who embarked on this vandalism assumed that they would earn compliments but since the community consists of educated and refined persons, the odious venture has backfired.
Had the ancestors of the community acted in a similar manner 14 centuries back, the word Parsi would have been unknown.
CHEAP TACTICS DO NOT YIELD RESULTS.
Moderator,
Is this the type of language that you pass on Parsi Khabar ?
“to put it bluntly, put your balls on the front line
Sheeesh your insanity!!!”
I was about to contribute, but have changed my mind.
Hey Mr. Shehzad irani, if you really are so passionate about safeguarding 3,500 year old culture and heritage…than you should head straight to Iran to take on mullahs who are hell bent on destroying Kabaa of Zarathustra and other heritage monuments, instead of showcasing your bailaagiri by beating up a 67 years old lady… and breaking furniture
https://parsi.wpengine.com/achaemenid-kaba-of-zoroaster-in-danger-of-collapsing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ParsiKhabar+(Parsi+Khabar)
Zara,
It is one thing to staunchly adhere to ones Religion and another thing to censure crude behaviour. And practicing Religion as per the scriptures is different then allowing fake interpreters to dictate their own version like autocrats and forcing their interpretation to be the only ‘correct’ version.You would surely not have missed the innumerable double speak DHONGEES calling others who raise pertinent questions as ‘irreligious’. These ‘self styled pious saviours’ of our Religion dislike ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ of customs and want everybody to ape them unquestioningly. To them custom is synonymous with religion.
Regards,
ANTI DHONGIDOX. Words ANTI in bold for enabling some one visually impaired to read clearly.
Nairika, what wonderful words! I just agree spot down to them.
My father lived in California (Parsi Zorastrian from a priestly family) and when he died …
I went from Hamburg to San Jose/California to give him his last fare-well. My daughters Laila and Dina and my husband Andreas (Viennese from Austria, blond and blue-eyed) accompanied me. We had such a wonderful ceremony in the Agiary on top of a little mountain under the strong American sun! Of course my husband and my daughters were allowed to take part of the ceremony.My husband said: In his heart he is Zoroastrian – more than being Catholic. My daughters are both … they have their roots well-rooted in their mom’s and dad’s culture!
I love America. Thank God that Zoroastrians and Parsis can live and practice their religion so freely in the United States.
What are these people in India trying? They will never be able to stop the children of Parsi Zoroastrians to enter the Agiary. If entry is forbidden in Bombay … well London and California have great blooming Fire-Temples.
And one day … the young Parsi boys and girls will be priests in Bombay … they will widely open the doors to everyone who wants to pray in front of the Holy Fire to Ahura Mazda.
Thank You
Jeannie
@Nairika K. Cornett
you are right – i support the case of the parsi-zoroastrian. Which is different from your version of universal-zoroastrian. You may not believe it but there are people of foreign origin attempting to enter places of worship and trying all ways to align themselves with parsi-zoroastrians. For your information as it stands – there are more people in the world who call themselves zoroastrians than there are parsi/irani-zoroastrians. So if it comes to a vote count, parsi/irani zoroastrians would turn in a minority, and hence with that minority will go traditions, culture language… which is very convenient to the reformist agenda – which is what we are against.
secondly, to your point about tenets of our religion – please get your doctrine in order. It is useless to discuss religion with you if you understand conversion also a zoroastrian doctrine.
and thirdly – and most importantly – the main reason why we are in india is because we want to protect our ethnic minority, and the religion. That is why our ancestors came to india – because we were being butchered and discriminated against in the land of our creation. Much as we might like to be martyrs, being martyrs does not result in protecting our religion. So balls or no balls, discretion IS the better part of valor.
Though there is no doubt in my mind that breaking up tables and bones is no way to enforce our view. It is barbarous.
Hope i clarify our stand.
@ Saf: fully agree with you.
Self-styled heroes like shehzad irani can only blabber and attack old ladies. Damn sad.
Saf’s point is FULLY valid. If you ethnocentric conservative lot have so much angst within yourselves, then why don’t you go vent your ire to the Iranian government?
We’ LOVE to see the results. :)
Love,
Zara
Dear Anti Dhongidox,
I understand and fully respect your point.
But its just that certain individuals such as apri Jeannie Aunty here choose to change sides as and when they please. She just had me might confused here that’s all.
Zara. :)
Hi Jamshed,
I agree with you. The language used by one of the bloggers is offensive. I am glad the moderator has edited her post. We can vehemently disagree on issues, but there is no justification to use derogatory language & try to pass it off as plain speaking.
Shehzad,
This often told fable about our noble ancestors being butchered if they refused to convert to Islam is just one of the myths the traditionalists propogate about the heroism” and uniqueness of Parsis. Serious students of history would tell you that the reality was quite different. A substantial proportion of Zoroastrians at that time willingly converted to avoid paying the jaziya tax imposed by the Arab conquerers. In fact, the Arabs had self-interest in not forcing the local population to convert because, according to their religion, only non-believers could be employed as slaves – which they badly needed. Also the reason the relatively unsophisticated Arabs could overrun Iran was not because of their numerical superiority (it was the other way round), but because the Sassanian empire was weak and corrupt. In fact, the Sassanian emperors manipulated and corrupted the pure trachings of Zarathustra to serve their own political ends. So much for our “glorious heritage”.
It is simple for the traditionalist dasturjis and self-styled religious experts to keep the Parsi community in blissful ignorance, because 95% of Parsis have made no effort to study their religion – nor are they inclined to. They are happy to delude themselves that as long as they regularly visit the agiari and mouth prayers they don’t comprehend at all, they have done the religious duty.
Hello everybody!
I am not a Zoroastrian, but I am interested in the Indo-Iranian world, and so I have come to have a closer look on religious and cultural aspects of Zoroastrianism in Iran or India. I have been reading the Denkard for a few week, and two days ago I read this title:
“Exposition in the good religion that the king, who in the present times brings people of other religions into the Mazdayasnian religion, is one possessed of the disposition of good men, is long-lived and a preventer of the world’s dangers; and that he does not give high rank to wicked people.” (Denkard, Book 3, Sanjana 4, para 154, http://www.avesta.org/denkard/dk3s136.html#chap154)
This leads me to the following questions:
– Do I correctly understand that converting is considered by the writer as a praised deed, and that converting is not to be considered as evil (the details in the para itself have the same meaning)?
– In the para itself, it is said “the people of the world”, so should it be understood that there is no restriction for Aryan persons only?
I have of course no authority on religious matters, but someone wants to answer my questions, please feel free to do so!
We came to India as refugees, so what Original Culture are we talking of ?.
Culture: = Dhanshak, Kachuber, Patrani Macchi, Garas
Heritage: = Dilapidated buildings left by benevolent Sethias.
Our Holy Scriptures mostly lost by Greek invasion and our present day Trustees want to be 21st Century’s Alexander
Congrats to likes of Nairika K. Cornett for their outspoken remarks. Parsis are known for tolerance and broadmindedness. Those who embarked on this vandalism assumed that they would earn compliments but since the community consists of educated and refined persons, the odious venture has backfired.
Had the ancestors of the community acted in a similar manner 14 centuries back, the word Parsi would have been unknown.
CHEAP TACTICS DO NOT YIELD RESULTS.
Moderator,
Is this the type of language that you pass on Parsi Khabar ?
“to put it bluntly, put your balls on the front line
Sheeesh your insanity!!!”
I was about to contribute, but have changed my mind.
Hey Mr. Shehzad irani, if you really are so passionate about safeguarding 3,500 year old culture and heritage…than you should head straight to Iran to take on mullahs who are hell bent on destroying Kabaa of Zarathustra and other heritage monuments, instead of showcasing your bailaagiri by beating up a 67 years old lady… and breaking furniture
https://parsi.wpengine.com/achaemenid-kaba-of-zoroaster-in-danger-of-collapsing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ParsiKhabar+(Parsi+Khabar)
Nairika, what wonderful words! I just agree spot down to them.
My father lived in California (Parsi Zorastrian from a priestly family) and when he died …
I went from Hamburg to San Jose/California to give him his last fare-well. My daughters Laila and Dina and my husband Andreas (Viennese from Austria, blond and blue-eyed) accompanied me. We had such a wonderful ceremony in the Agiary on top of a little mountain under the strong American sun! Of course my husband and my daughters were allowed to take part of the ceremony.My husband said: In his heart he is Zoroastrian – more than being Catholic. My daughters are both … they have their roots well-rooted in their mom’s and dad’s culture!
I love America. Thank God that Zoroastrians and Parsis can live and practice their religion so freely in the United States.
What are these people in India trying? They will never be able to stop the children of Parsi Zoroastrians to enter the Agiary. If entry is forbidden in Bombay … well London and California have great blooming Fire-Temples.
And one day … the young Parsi boys and girls will be priests in Bombay … they will widely open the doors to everyone who wants to pray in front of the Holy Fire to Ahura Mazda.
Thank You
Jeannie
@Jamshed H. Bastani,
Respected Sir, this is nothing. U shud read the type of abuses and insults heaped on us the Ortho-dox by the deformist group leader Dhongi-dox and his bandwagon.In the previous forum he had praised the vigilant Parsis, now he takes a U turn and condemns them. For those of you who feel there was vandalism, people were hurt and furniture was broken kindly have a look at the photographs. Exaggeration has its limit.
@ Saf: fully agree with you.
Self-styled heroes like shehzad irani can only blabber and attack old ladies. Damn sad.
Saf’s point is FULLY valid. If you ethnocentric conservative lot have so much angst within yourselves, then why don’t you go vent your ire to the Iranian government?
We’ LOVE to see the results. :)
Love,
Zara
Dear Anti Dhongidox,
I understand and fully respect your point.
But its just that certain individuals such as apri Jeannie Aunty here choose to change sides as and when they please. She just had me might confused here that’s all.
Zara. :)
Hi Jamshed,
I agree with you. The language used by one of the bloggers is offensive. I am glad the moderator has edited her post. We can vehemently disagree on issues, but there is no justification to use derogatory language & try to pass it off as plain speaking.
Shehzad,
This often told fable about our noble ancestors being butchered if they refused to convert to Islam is just one of the myths the traditionalists propogate about the heroism” and uniqueness of Parsis. Serious students of history would tell you that the reality was quite different. A substantial proportion of Zoroastrians at that time willingly converted to avoid paying the jaziya tax imposed by the Arab conquerers. In fact, the Arabs had self-interest in not forcing the local population to convert because, according to their religion, only non-believers could be employed as slaves – which they badly needed. Also the reason the relatively unsophisticated Arabs could overrun Iran was not because of their numerical superiority (it was the other way round), but because the Sassanian empire was weak and corrupt. In fact, the Sassanian emperors manipulated and corrupted the pure trachings of Zarathustra to serve their own political ends. So much for our “glorious heritage”.
It is simple for the traditionalist dasturjis and self-styled religious experts to keep the Parsi community in blissful ignorance, because 95% of Parsis have made no effort to study their religion – nor are they inclined to. They are happy to delude themselves that as long as they regularly visit the agiari and mouth prayers they don’t comprehend at all, they have done the religious duty.
Nairika,
The above behavior is quite similar to the aggression levelled at our very young children and at us, by the Inter-marrieds and their supporters at the Zoroastrian center in the U.S.
As I have mentioned earlier , these very people who feel free to attack Parsi-Zoroastrians would not DARE behave in the same manner at their spouses’ places of worship i.e.the Church , the Hindu temple, etc. They know that the other communities will NOT TOLERATE an attack on their own people and there would be SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES and RETALIATION following any such attempt.
The Parsi-Zoroastrians have done a lot over the years for the Zoroastrian religion, the Parsi community and their country, India.
So, perhaps you and the “growing numbers of Zoroastrians in the USA” can take over some of these causes for a change. It will prove your allegiance to the religion and also allow the rest of us to worship in peace. For a start, the Kaaba of Zarathushtra in Iran !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello everybody!
I am not a Zoroastrian, but I am interested in the Indo-Iranian world, and so I have come to have a closer look on religious and cultural aspects of Zoroastrianism in Iran or India. I have been reading the Denkard for a few week, and two days ago I read this title:
“Exposition in the good religion that the king, who in the present times brings people of other religions into the Mazdayasnian religion, is one possessed of the disposition of good men, is long-lived and a preventer of the world’s dangers; and that he does not give high rank to wicked people.” (Denkard, Book 3, Sanjana 4, para 154, http://www.avesta.org/denkard/dk3s136.html#chap154)
This leads me to the following questions:
– Do I correctly understand that converting is considered by the writer as a praised deed, and that converting is not to be considered as evil (the details in the para itself have the same meaning)?
– In the para itself, it is said “the people of the world”, so should it be understood that there is no restriction for Aryan persons only?
I have of course no authority on religious matters, but someone wants to answer my questions, please feel free to do so!
We came to India as refugees, so what Original Culture are we talking of ?.
Culture: = Dhanshak, Kachuber, Patrani Macchi, Garas
Heritage: = Dilapidated buildings left by benevolent Sethias.
Our Holy Scriptures mostly lost by Greek invasion and our present day Trustees want to be 21st Century’s Alexander
Dear Mr. Jamshed E. Bastani, I would like to read your comment and so would request you to ignore the poor language and brainless comments of some ignorant commenters.
Tell me / tell us what you think about this matter?
Doesn’t everybody have the same right to pray to Ahura Mazda?
Best regards – Jeannie Antia
@ Puff:
Do you have a link to the photos you mention?
@Jamshed H. Bastani,
Respected Sir, this is nothing. U shud read the type of abuses and insults heaped on us the Ortho-dox by the deformist group leader Dhongi-dox and his bandwagon.In the previous forum he had praised the vigilant Parsis, now he takes a U turn and condemns them. For those of you who feel there was vandalism, people were hurt and furniture was broken kindly have a look at the photographs. Exaggeration has its limit.
Nairika,
The above behavior is quite similar to the aggression levelled at our very young children and at us, by the Inter-marrieds and their supporters at the Zoroastrian center in the U.S.
As I have mentioned earlier , these very people who feel free to attack Parsi-Zoroastrians would not DARE behave in the same manner at their spouses’ places of worship i.e.the Church , the Hindu temple, etc. They know that the other communities will NOT TOLERATE an attack on their own people and there would be SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES and RETALIATION following any such attempt.
The Parsi-Zoroastrians have done a lot over the years for the Zoroastrian religion, the Parsi community and their country, India.
So, perhaps you and the “growing numbers of Zoroastrians in the USA” can take over some of these causes for a change. It will prove your allegiance to the religion and also allow the rest of us to worship in peace. For a start, the Kaaba of Zarathushtra in Iran !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dear Mr. Jamshed E. Bastani, I would like to read your comment and so would request you to ignore the poor language and brainless comments of some ignorant commenters.
Tell me / tell us what you think about this matter?
Doesn’t everybody have the same right to pray to Ahura Mazda?
Best regards – Jeannie Antia
Jamshed, frankly I and many others are glad you decided not to say what you were about to because your holier than thou comment clearly states your position.
Rohinton, us ‘inter-marrieds’ have no interest in telling you how you should live and raise your kids. All we are saying is for you to get off your pulpits. You can choose to live as regressively as you want. However, that is not what I want for myself or my family. Why do you holier than thou types feel the need to constantly tell us what we should do with our lives? Have you paid for my upbringing? Have you paid for that of my kids? What then gives you and you like to dictate to me? I don’t care if you lock and bolt your agiaries and put armed guards outside to maintain their sanctity. However, don’t tell me that my donating to a Darbe Mehr in the U.S. is a desecration of Zoroastrianism. And for the record,… I am a huge advocate for the serious punishment of Catholic priests who molest children and have done so for centuries. I have donated generously to Amnesty International for this very cause and am very vocal in my local community. Hence your statement that I would not dare speak up in my spouse’s place of worship holds no ground. Personal attacks only speak on a weak cause Rohinton. You do not know me and hence your assumptions are absolutely unfounded. This entire discussion started because I think violence of any kind is WRONG. Nowhere am I asking you to accept my life choices of inter marrying, of bringing my children into our faith. Please read this carefully and re-read it if need be. I do NOT care what anyone else thinks of my life style. I don’t live my life for approval from you or anyone else. I choose to live it this way because this is what I know to be best for me. All else is completely inconsequential. I cannot say this in a simpler manner.
You and your like cannot hijack this religion as hard as you may try. Firoze Hirjikaka is absolutely correct in saying that most of us know very little about our religion. Yet, many are completely comfortable imposing their ignorance or others.
@ Puff:
Do you have a link to the photos you mention?
SAF, Are you seriously expecting a cogent reply from a person with foot in the mouth problem.By making adverse comments, he believes I will refrain from blogging. When he can not answer, he will talk of ‘dust below” his hat or something like that. Yeh to peekay awaara hai.(Pun intended) I earlier avataar, the same person was disguised as Khotta True Reformist Zoro. Remember that.
Dear Jeannie,
I am an 80 year old Irani Zarathushti who moved to Dahanu in 1970 and have settled there since. Recently I have learnt how to use the computer courtsey my grandson who is more adept than poor me. What I notice here is we zarathushtis are very vociferous in our views to the extent that we end up hurting the feelings of our own. Why cant everybody express his/her opinion in a civilized fashion so that we may all remain united irrespective of our views.
We landed on the shores of Sanjan some 1300 years ago and now this incident takes place right there. If we had enacted the same scene then or the Hindu King who gave us refuge was alive he would have packed us back in the same set of boats and sent us back to Iran to be dealt with appropriately by the Arabs. Why do our Parsees/Iranis meddle in affairs they are least knowlegable about is what I ask. Why do new problems keep cropping up for our community everyday ? Why cant we respect our clergy, follow their guidance and act accordingly ? If each one of us wants to do things his/her way and fight amongst ourselves, the end is very near. We might as well not exist. These are my thoughts.
Regards
Jamshed H. Bastani
Jamshed, frankly I and many others are glad you decided not to say what you were about to because your holier than thou comment clearly states your position.
Rohinton, us ‘inter-marrieds’ have no interest in telling you how you should live and raise your kids. All we are saying is for you to get off your pulpits. You can choose to live as regressively as you want. However, that is not what I want for myself or my family. Why do you holier than thou types feel the need to constantly tell us what we should do with our lives? Have you paid for my upbringing? Have you paid for that of my kids? What then gives you and you like to dictate to me? I don’t care if you lock and bolt your agiaries and put armed guards outside to maintain their sanctity. However, don’t tell me that my donating to a Darbe Mehr in the U.S. is a desecration of Zoroastrianism. And for the record,… I am a huge advocate for the serious punishment of Catholic priests who molest children and have done so for centuries. I have donated generously to Amnesty International for this very cause and am very vocal in my local community. Hence your statement that I would not dare speak up in my spouse’s place of worship holds no ground. Personal attacks only speak on a weak cause Rohinton. You do not know me and hence your assumptions are absolutely unfounded. This entire discussion started because I think violence of any kind is WRONG. Nowhere am I asking you to accept my life choices of inter marrying, of bringing my children into our faith. Please read this carefully and re-read it if need be. I do NOT care what anyone else thinks of my life style. I don’t live my life for approval from you or anyone else. I choose to live it this way because this is what I know to be best for me. All else is completely inconsequential. I cannot say this in a simpler manner.
You and your like cannot hijack this religion as hard as you may try. Firoze Hirjikaka is absolutely correct in saying that most of us know very little about our religion. Yet, many are completely comfortable imposing their ignorance or others.
Dear Aunty Jeannie,
With all due respects. I am quite hurt to see how you choose to disrespect other people by labeling them “brainless” and “ignorant”.
One expects an old lady such as you to conduct yourself with grace and dignity, and guide us youngsters rather than hurl insults.
If this is the attitude of the older generation then what can we expect from the present?
Also, Aunty Jeannie, please don’t use this forum to defend the choices you have made in life. I understand you think otherwise and that you feel we need to be totally free, but that will take quite a while. Things don’t always work the way we want to right? :)
I hope you understand me very well, as you should, my darling Aunty Jeannie.
Love always,
Zara.
To Convert or not…is something we shall have to solve..
Fact is that some Zoros of Indo-Pak have nullified and been neglecting our trads, some think dismantling Zoroastrian foundations is modernity..main example is the dakhma controversy…and wrong propoganda against it…
whilst some who had Zoroastrian roots want to enter into such pactises again…..
Fact is that some within are dispicing and propogating the dismantling of Zoroastrian Systems whilst Some from Outside having Zoroastrian Roots want to restart such practises in their lifes..
Some From Within like Dhongi, Piloo, a rustomjee etc claim archeological evidence to Zoroastrainism is debris..whilst some are studying such and are interested in Zoroastrianism..
Fact also is that we have had factual examples of people runing around naked in front of fruits claiming that it is a zoroastrian practise..(under the viel of promoting zoroastriansim)
Fact also is that we have had case of people smoking marajuana n caught whilst smugling it across borders claiming that this is a zoroastrian practise..(same principle– promoting Zoroastrianism)
Fact also is that a cult thinks that all that the saviours of Zoroastrianism passed on was humbag and that this cult has cracked the case..and so maligns and defiles everyting passed on by the saviours of Zoroastrianism..again in the name of..promoting Zoroastrianism..This cult actually has also falsely creatd a crack between Iranian Zoroastrians and us..and amongst us…
Fact also is that some cults have misrepresented hoama ceremony as ‘Bhang’ drinking’…all in the name of reviving Zoroastrianism..
Reports also show that many Homosexuals are converted into Zoroastrianism as they are told Zoroastrianism promotes such..again all for promoting Zoroastrianism..
So we have all such groups all alleging to promote Zoroastrianism whilst degrading it and the saviours of Zoroastrianism..
Then we have groups who want to alert Zooastrianism against its own practises and trads..some want to revive ?Zoroastrianism by dismantling its system..
Shezad Irani points out to a very important fact and that points towards a demographic change…Our forfathers had the forsight and thus we have sucessfuly preserved Zoroastrianism with minuscle numbers and even more challenging situations..The scholars recognise such feat and thus we have Profs like West, Boyce, Hinnells, Kotwal, Sir JJ Modi and many many others who aided in such progress…only now to be degarded by the likes of ‘a rustomjee’ who thinks that Zoroastrian/Parsi culture is dhansakh,and kacumber..
Also with such a minuscle number we try and preserve Zoroastrianism whilst many others in the name of reviving Zoroastrianism do things exactly opposite to Zoroastrian phylosophy…So again as Sahazad points out, with what do you guys wuld like Zoroastrianism to be remembered..a mis mash of personal tastes…gatha alone cults revives Zoroastrianism??!!! by saying everything else , rituals,practises,books, texts all preserved are all useless..they infact try to have the same end result as the guys who in the first place burnt our boks and killed all priests..from Alexander to St Vartaaan to the islamisation of Persia..
So we are told to give up on what the saviours of Zoroastrianism preserved and passed on …in the name of reviving Zoroastriansim…And many foolishly think that by following such and neglecting what has seen us surviving as zoroastrianism is Modern..
Fact is we have people who are not forced or coerced to practise Zoroastrianism yet belittle everyone else who w ants to since they do not like for example dokhmenishini.yet scream on rooftops that theyd like to convert others…Basically convert others to something they want to change and thus belittle…
Somehow for the last decade the voice of the Zoroastrian who has silently pleaded, cried out yet not succumbed to pressures to ruderlessly change have been ignored and such are belittled..and practises followed again belittled…throws light on the fact that we were belittled in the same way by those who wanted to extinguisn the Zoroastrian flame forever..
and Now
Disrespecting the view that if you want to convert atleast do it on the lines of what thesaviours of Zoroastrianisn passed on…again is arrogantly dismissed..they claim that the saviours of Zoroastrianism passed on wrong stuff..
Disrespecting and belittling those who sacrificed everything so that Zoroastrian system could continue are seen as modern mantra and Zoroastrian practises thirsted to end..Their thirst maligns make the bravest of sacrifices and donations and donors.
Disrespecting the maintainence of identity which has been preserved thru much blood and sacrifices does not surmount to vandalism…
If the group wants to protect this identity..it surmounts to racism…but destruction of this groups identity for some results to magnanimity…( this goes against principles of states, tribes, communities ,countries and continents)
Whilst the truth according to scholars of Zoroastrianism is that ” Ritual Practises is Inseperable from Zoroastrianism according to’ Prof Rusell, groups attiring as reviving Zorastrianism actually promotes us to delink Zoroastrian Practises from Zoroastrianism..
If we are to get back those who had Zoroastrian roots then we shall have to segerate the Chaff that claims to revive Zoroastriansim working on the lines of those who actually made us a minority…( Our books were burnt by those who wanted to cnvert Persia into the Byzantines faith n later Islam and Now …A cult and self professed scholar asks us to give them up claiming whatvere is reserved is nonsence…..with his self professed ‘Ratuship!”)
DIsrespecting a practise preserved by sacrifices by our ancestors somehow does NOT surmount to vandalism …yet protesting against such disrespect and against destruction of a small groups identity forever..and against furniture does…for some people..
SAF, Are you seriously expecting a cogent reply from a person with foot in the mouth problem.By making adverse comments, he believes I will refrain from blogging. When he can not answer, he will talk of ‘dust below” his hat or something like that. Yeh to peekay awaara hai.(Pun intended) I earlier avataar, the same person was disguised as Khotta True Reformist Zoro. Remember that.
Dear Jeannie,
I am an 80 year old Irani Zarathushti who moved to Dahanu in 1970 and have settled there since. Recently I have learnt how to use the computer courtsey my grandson who is more adept than poor me. What I notice here is we zarathushtis are very vociferous in our views to the extent that we end up hurting the feelings of our own. Why cant everybody express his/her opinion in a civilized fashion so that we may all remain united irrespective of our views.
We landed on the shores of Sanjan some 1300 years ago and now this incident takes place right there. If we had enacted the same scene then or the Hindu King who gave us refuge was alive he would have packed us back in the same set of boats and sent us back to Iran to be dealt with appropriately by the Arabs. Why do our Parsees/Iranis meddle in affairs they are least knowlegable about is what I ask. Why do new problems keep cropping up for our community everyday ? Why cant we respect our clergy, follow their guidance and act accordingly ? If each one of us wants to do things his/her way and fight amongst ourselves, the end is very near. We might as well not exist. These are my thoughts.
Regards
Jamshed H. Bastani
All those who found Nairika’s use of word ‘balls’, offensive, ironically found nothing offensive about parsi hooligans storming a private proceeding uninvited and beating up people!!!…
PARSI thy name is HYPOCRISY
Anyway, Shehzad, Delnavaz, Rohinton, Puffdarling,Jamshed H. Bastani and all others who are cocksure conversion is not allowed in Zoroastrianism, can you please enlighten which book of yours says – Ahura Mazda created the mankind and than selected ONLY a small ethnic group in iran to get wisdom from him via Zarathustra!!! I would like to see evidence if you have any.
Dear Aunty Jeannie,
With all due respects. I am quite hurt to see how you choose to disrespect other people by labeling them “brainless” and “ignorant”.
One expects an old lady such as you to conduct yourself with grace and dignity, and guide us youngsters rather than hurl insults.
If this is the attitude of the older generation then what can we expect from the present?
Also, Aunty Jeannie, please don’t use this forum to defend the choices you have made in life. I understand you think otherwise and that you feel we need to be totally free, but that will take quite a while. Things don’t always work the way we want to right? :)
I hope you understand me very well, as you should, my darling Aunty Jeannie.
Love always,
Zara.
To Convert or not…is something we shall have to solve..
Fact is that some Zoros of Indo-Pak have nullified and been neglecting our trads, some think dismantling Zoroastrian foundations is modernity..main example is the dakhma controversy…and wrong propoganda against it…
whilst some who had Zoroastrian roots want to enter into such pactises again…..
Fact is that some within are dispicing and propogating the dismantling of Zoroastrian Systems whilst Some from Outside having Zoroastrian Roots want to restart such practises in their lifes..
Some From Within like Dhongi, Piloo, a rustomjee etc claim archeological evidence to Zoroastrainism is debris..whilst some are studying such and are interested in Zoroastrianism..
Fact also is that we have had factual examples of people runing around naked in front of fruits claiming that it is a zoroastrian practise..(under the viel of promoting zoroastriansim)
Fact also is that we have had case of people smoking marajuana n caught whilst smugling it across borders claiming that this is a zoroastrian practise..(same principle– promoting Zoroastrianism)
Fact also is that a cult thinks that all that the saviours of Zoroastrianism passed on was humbag and that this cult has cracked the case..and so maligns and defiles everyting passed on by the saviours of Zoroastrianism..again in the name of..promoting Zoroastrianism..This cult actually has also falsely creatd a crack between Iranian Zoroastrians and us..and amongst us…
Fact also is that some cults have misrepresented hoama ceremony as ‘Bhang’ drinking’…all in the name of reviving Zoroastrianism..
Reports also show that many Homosexuals are converted into Zoroastrianism as they are told Zoroastrianism promotes such..again all for promoting Zoroastrianism..
So we have all such groups all alleging to promote Zoroastrianism whilst degrading it and the saviours of Zoroastrianism..
Then we have groups who want to alert Zooastrianism against its own practises and trads..some want to revive ?Zoroastrianism by dismantling its system..
Shezad Irani points out to a very important fact and that points towards a demographic change…Our forfathers had the forsight and thus we have sucessfuly preserved Zoroastrianism with minuscle numbers and even more challenging situations..The scholars recognise such feat and thus we have Profs like West, Boyce, Hinnells, Kotwal, Sir JJ Modi and many many others who aided in such progress…only now to be degarded by the likes of ‘a rustomjee’ who thinks that Zoroastrian/Parsi culture is dhansakh,and kacumber..
Also with such a minuscle number we try and preserve Zoroastrianism whilst many others in the name of reviving Zoroastrianism do things exactly opposite to Zoroastrian phylosophy…So again as Sahazad points out, with what do you guys wuld like Zoroastrianism to be remembered..a mis mash of personal tastes…gatha alone cults revives Zoroastrianism??!!! by saying everything else , rituals,practises,books, texts all preserved are all useless..they infact try to have the same end result as the guys who in the first place burnt our boks and killed all priests..from Alexander to St Vartaaan to the islamisation of Persia..
So we are told to give up on what the saviours of Zoroastrianism preserved and passed on …in the name of reviving Zoroastriansim…And many foolishly think that by following such and neglecting what has seen us surviving as zoroastrianism is Modern..
Fact is we have people who are not forced or coerced to practise Zoroastrianism yet belittle everyone else who w ants to since they do not like for example dokhmenishini.yet scream on rooftops that theyd like to convert others…Basically convert others to something they want to change and thus belittle…
Somehow for the last decade the voice of the Zoroastrian who has silently pleaded, cried out yet not succumbed to pressures to ruderlessly change have been ignored and such are belittled..and practises followed again belittled…throws light on the fact that we were belittled in the same way by those who wanted to extinguisn the Zoroastrian flame forever..
and Now
Disrespecting the view that if you want to convert atleast do it on the lines of what thesaviours of Zoroastrianisn passed on…again is arrogantly dismissed..they claim that the saviours of Zoroastrianism passed on wrong stuff..
Disrespecting and belittling those who sacrificed everything so that Zoroastrian system could continue are seen as modern mantra and Zoroastrian practises thirsted to end..Their thirst maligns make the bravest of sacrifices and donations and donors.
Disrespecting the maintainence of identity which has been preserved thru much blood and sacrifices does not surmount to vandalism…
If the group wants to protect this identity..it surmounts to racism…but destruction of this groups identity for some results to magnanimity…( this goes against principles of states, tribes, communities ,countries and continents)
Whilst the truth according to scholars of Zoroastrianism is that ” Ritual Practises is Inseperable from Zoroastrianism according to’ Prof Rusell, groups attiring as reviving Zorastrianism actually promotes us to delink Zoroastrian Practises from Zoroastrianism..
If we are to get back those who had Zoroastrian roots then we shall have to segerate the Chaff that claims to revive Zoroastriansim working on the lines of those who actually made us a minority…( Our books were burnt by those who wanted to cnvert Persia into the Byzantines faith n later Islam and Now …A cult and self professed scholar asks us to give them up claiming whatvere is reserved is nonsence…..with his self professed ‘Ratuship!”)
DIsrespecting a practise preserved by sacrifices by our ancestors somehow does NOT surmount to vandalism …yet protesting against such disrespect and against destruction of a small groups identity forever..and against furniture does…for some people..
All those who found Nairika’s use of word ‘balls’, offensive, ironically found nothing offensive about parsi hooligans storming a private proceeding uninvited and beating up people!!!…
PARSI thy name is HYPOCRISY
Anyway, Shehzad, Delnavaz, Rohinton, Puffdarling,Jamshed H. Bastani and all others who are cocksure conversion is not allowed in Zoroastrianism, can you please enlighten which book of yours says – Ahura Mazda created the mankind and than selected ONLY a small ethnic group in iran to get wisdom from him via Zarathustra!!! I would like to see evidence if you have any.
Hey SAF,
Can u tell me the meaning of SURMOUNTING?.
I have read, re read and re re read. Makes no sense to me. The meaning of SURMOUNT that I know of is to overcome.
Which side is this blogger on. ?
Saf, you took the words out of my mouth about my use of the word ‘balls’. Those offended by my use of language are completely okay with the fact that they are sanctioning and supporting violence. Amazing!!!
Mr. Jamasji, just because you use the word ‘fact’ a ridiculous amount of times in your message does not my default make what you say factual. You have used ridiculous example to make us progressives look crazy. You have come into this discussion a little late only to miss the point completely. Most of us are against the violence mentioned in this article. You take any excuse to get on your soap box to rant and rave about the same nonsense no matter what the topic of discussion. You should run for political office – you are just like our mantris – mouthing off the same nonsense over and over again though it is of no consequence to what is being discussed.
Also, just so you know the meaning of the word ‘vandalism’ I am copying from a web dictionary:
van·dal·ism (vndl-zm) n.
Willful or malicious destruction of public or private property
Hence, converting a Russian into a Zoroastrian priest is not vandalism no matter how hard you try to convince us that it is (referencing your last statement).
Again, since you have brought up the topic of conversion, please send us textual references to back up your statements. Also, to set the record straight, we liberals are not actively proselytizing – all we are saying is that if people willingly want to be Zoroastrian who are you or I to stop them?
With regards to the dhansak and kachumber statement, I could not agree more with Mr. Rustomjee. We Parsis have completely mixed up cultural rituals with religious ones. We do ’tilo, naryel, haar, chalk,…’ at all festive occasions. These are hindu ritualistic practices. Let me make clear that I continue to do these in my home in the U.S. but I cannot claim them to be Zoroastrian. What you and your like want to maintain is insularism within a cultural community. You are preserving only that and not religious doctrine. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing if it is for yourself. I have a problem when you start telling me I am defiling your religion. Your religion is no more yours than it is mine. Parsis have worked themselves into paranoia thinking everyone and everything aberrant is wanting to become Zoroastrian. Rather presumptuous of you. Your statement on homosexuals is absolutely inflammatory. If some homosexuals did indeed convert, I am sure Ahura Mazda is happy they did. If he were as judgmental as you, his teachings would have died out a long time ago. Embrace those who embrace Him instead of considering yourself an elite. You are no more in his graces than anyone else. Of that I am certain.
Nairika,
I was writing about MY experience with the Intermarrieds in the USA .
Kindly do not twist the matter and make it about YOU !!!
Saf…
I have not once mentioned my stance on conversion, so you are totally off the mark when you lump together, any opinion that differs in the slightest from yours.
I would request all of you to keep the tone civil, and not get into personal attacks with ANY blogger.
Hey SAF,
Can u tell me the meaning of SURMOUNTING?.
I have read, re read and re re read. Makes no sense to me. The meaning of SURMOUNT that I know of is to overcome.
Which side is this blogger on. ?
Saf, you took the words out of my mouth about my use of the word ‘balls’. Those offended by my use of language are completely okay with the fact that they are sanctioning and supporting violence. Amazing!!!
Mr. Jamasji, just because you use the word ‘fact’ a ridiculous amount of times in your message does not my default make what you say factual. You have used ridiculous example to make us progressives look crazy. You have come into this discussion a little late only to miss the point completely. Most of us are against the violence mentioned in this article. You take any excuse to get on your soap box to rant and rave about the same nonsense no matter what the topic of discussion. You should run for political office – you are just like our mantris – mouthing off the same nonsense over and over again though it is of no consequence to what is being discussed.
Also, just so you know the meaning of the word ‘vandalism’ I am copying from a web dictionary:
van·dal·ism (vndl-zm) n.
Willful or malicious destruction of public or private property
Hence, converting a Russian into a Zoroastrian priest is not vandalism no matter how hard you try to convince us that it is (referencing your last statement).
Again, since you have brought up the topic of conversion, please send us textual references to back up your statements. Also, to set the record straight, we liberals are not actively proselytizing – all we are saying is that if people willingly want to be Zoroastrian who are you or I to stop them?
With regards to the dhansak and kachumber statement, I could not agree more with Mr. Rustomjee. We Parsis have completely mixed up cultural rituals with religious ones. We do ’tilo, naryel, haar, chalk,…’ at all festive occasions. These are hindu ritualistic practices. Let me make clear that I continue to do these in my home in the U.S. but I cannot claim them to be Zoroastrian. What you and your like want to maintain is insularism within a cultural community. You are preserving only that and not religious doctrine. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing if it is for yourself. I have a problem when you start telling me I am defiling your religion. Your religion is no more yours than it is mine. Parsis have worked themselves into paranoia thinking everyone and everything aberrant is wanting to become Zoroastrian. Rather presumptuous of you. Your statement on homosexuals is absolutely inflammatory. If some homosexuals did indeed convert, I am sure Ahura Mazda is happy they did. If he were as judgmental as you, his teachings would have died out a long time ago. Embrace those who embrace Him instead of considering yourself an elite. You are no more in his graces than anyone else. Of that I am certain.
AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN
Dear members,
By now you may have read the first hand report I sent to The Times of India and Mumbai Mirror regarding, “Parsis storm Zoroastrian College to stop conversion of Russian”.
Here are some extra facts:
1: It came as a shock to know that Meher Master-Moos was conducting a ‘navar’ ritual of a Muslim from Tadjikistan (later, it was found out that the individual was from Russia and not Tadjikistan), at her ‘Z’ College at Sanjan! The day before yesterday, on the 18th, even before the group from Bombay left for Sanjan to ask Meher Master-Moos some questions about this clandestine religiously illegal so-called ‘navar’ ritual, the stalwarts from Surat and Navsari, Noshir Dordee, Soli Katpitia (so old he could barely walk), Ronnie Patrawalla, Neville Pithawalla, Jimmy Bacha from Navsari (I am sorry, I think I have inadvertently left out other names), went to the Zoroastrian College at Sanjan. The two renegade priests, Khushroo Madon and Dhunjishaw Karanjia simply ran away on seeing these stalwarts, even before they could ask questions! IF these two priests were performing a religiously legal, established ritual with proper tarikats, there was NO cause for them to run away! They would have stood their ground, let the dedicated baste-kustian P-I-Zs from Surat/Navsari see what was going on at the so-called ‘Zoroastrian’ College and continued with the ritual! But, they ran away because they were caught in the clandestine act of performing a religiously illegal ritual!
2: Yesterday, on February 19, early morning, a group of about 35 of us left for Sanjan to stop this sheer religious crime of making a navar of a juddin! Our questions: a) how can a juddin become a navar when even the behdin boys, no matter how religious, can become navars by going through the navar ritual? b) The ritual of navar, is a spiritually high initiation ceremony since the priests are descended from Ahura Mazda and Asho Zarathushtra in a continuous succession, from unbroken priestly descent. This ritual cannot be performed even if the male member from a priestly family is not of continuous descent, i.e. the lineage is broken if 3 generations of continuity with the navar ritual is not maintained. This is pertinent because individuals like Mr. Chistyakov have no proof to offer that they were Zs prior to the Rusian Revolution 70 years ago and have followed, since the past 3 generations, the priestly profession by undergoing the navar ritual. (Irani boys from priestly families were sent to India from Iran for their navar ritual and religious studies.) c) How can this important ritual be performed in an unconsecrated place such as the Z College at Sanjan? This ritual is only performed within the consecrated agiaries and atashbehrams where the Pav Mahal is operating and functional! d) It can be performed only if all the alaat is present which requires a hair from a varasiaji! Where was this absolutely requisite hair from a varasiaji procured from, for this ritual at Sanjan? It is abundantly clear that none of these religious rules were followed!
3: While we were all still at the Z College, Mr. Dinshaw Mehta asked Ms. Meher Master-Moos to stop this ‘navar’ ritual immediately; to send the Russian individual back to St. Petersburg with the condition that Dinshaw himself would pay for his ticket! In answer, Ms. Meher Master-Moos wanted Mr. Dinshaw Mehta to give her 2 crores of rupees and send a varasiaji to St. Petersburg and she agreed to do what he suggested only after he agreed to her 2 conditions! We were shocked because this is religious extortion! And, send a varasiaji to St. Petersburg? Why? So she and others could carry on with din-dushmani of performing navjotes, navars and maratabs in Europe and elsewhere? Of course, Mr. Dinshaw Mehta did not agree to her demands!
4: While at the Police Station, Ms. Meher Master-Moos was questioned by the Police Inspector, Mr. Mukund Mahajan. She maintained that Mr. Mikhail Chistyakov was a “Zoroastrian” of Z descent! Mr. Chistyakov himelf confessed that he is not a “Parsi”, his parents were not Parsis either and even their navjote was never performed. He said that about 40 Russians have ‘become Zoroastrians’ through the initiation of navjote at St. Persburg in 1992 or 1994; his was performed by Kamran Jamsheedi from Iran who now lives in Russia, at Moscow. Mikhail was born in 1962. He even confessed that his navar was done was by the same priest Kamran, in 2000. So, the question was voiced, if his navar was already performed, why was there any need of another navar ritual unless this was a purported maratab ritual? We asked him which religion he followed, because we were told he was a Muslim, he did not confirm nor deny but only said that he was “Zoroastrian” because he likes it and believes in Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta; that he was from the Russian Federation where anyone can choose any religion. So, he did not have a Parsi/Irani Z ancestry as claimed.
Also, he was told in no uncertain terms that he cannot be a ‘Zoroastrian’ without being a Parsi because the 2 terms are synonymous! He was quoted the identity of a “Zarathushti” since Achaemenian times, from Darius the Great’s inscription at Naqsh-i-Rustom: “parsa parsahya puthra ariya ariyachithra”, indentifying himself as a Parsi, of Parsi lineage! Naturally, in several other inscriptions all over Iran but especially at Gunj Nameh, the words “Ahura Mazda” also appear proving that all the Achaemenian Kings were “Zarathushtis” as well as “Parsi”! He was also informed that late Dasturji Hormazdyar Kayoji Mirza has established in the Court at Bombay that Parsi is not a race and Zarthushtrianism a religion, but the two terms are synonymous and a Parsi is a Zarathushti and a Zarathushti is a Parsi, by birth, race and religion! Mr. Chistyakov did not know this.
5: He was asked if he entered any agiaries or atashbehrams in Bombay but we were informed by Meher Master-Moos that Mr. Chistyakov had visited Bombay and her College twice before, making this his third visit! We were told that this time he had not visited any agiaries / atashbehrams. We wonder, does this mean he has visited our consecrated places before? If so, the responsibility of breaking our religious rules and spiritual kash lies on the shoulders of Meher Master-Moos for misguiding the gullible individuals in Tadjikistan, and other Central Asian countries, including Russia!
6: Ms. Meher Master-Moos also maintained that all her priests are Parsi priests and that our priests in India have accepted Mikhail Chistyakov! We were horrified to know this especially when we saw the book about her College she had presented to the Police Inspector of Sanjan, Mr Mukund Mahajan. In the book, we saw photos of late Dasturji Kaikobad Dastoor of Udvada, Dasturji Khurshed of Udvada, Ervad Firoze Andhyarujina of Udvada (his photo was identified as from his visit to Dushanbe some years ago), Ervad Cyrus Dastoor of the Frohar Films; Behramshah D. Pithawalla and Dusturji Dr. Peshotan Mirza! Of major concern was this photo of Dasturji Saheb Mirza and I immediately raised my concern in no uncertain terms because his photo showed him standing with the same individual, Mikhail Chistyakov, identified as: “Herbad” Mikhail Chistiakov, on the opposite page. Under the photo, it was written, “Almatta, October 2005”! I knew this could never happen. I checked with Dasturji Saheb this morning and he has categorically denied that he has ever visited Almatta! Not in 2005 October as falsely claimed, or ever! Of course, Meher Master-Moos’ false assertion that her priests are Parsis and all Parsi priests have accepted her ‘priests’ is not at all believable! It is a lie, an outright lie! Dasturji can even prove that he has never visited Almatta! I was very upset that the fake photo of Dasturji Mirza with Mikhail Chistyakov and other photos of other Dasturjis and priests were used to promote her “Z” College!
7: We asked many other questions to both, such as, 1) it is alleged that she charges $ 1,500 for each navjote performed in Tadjikistan and at other Central Asian Countries (including Russia) and so, how much did Mr. Chistyakov pay for this ritual? He replied in the negative. 2) We asked him where he stayed in Bombay and he said at Dinyar’s place at Cama Park. He didn’t remember the exact address of the building, and did not give us the full name, etc. 3) We maintained that we entered her ‘Z’ College premises because as she herself maintains, it is an educational institution alone, providing education in Avesta as well as priestly education; but then what was the reason of her objection to our entering her ‘Z’ College when as Parsis we could go in and visit any time; why the cause of the secrecy in performing this ‘navar’ ritual? She replied that “making a priest is educational”! We asked again and wonder as to how can any religiously illegal ritual be ‘educational’? 4) She also said that she does not convert and that Mikhail’s forefathers were Zoroastrians! We asked as to why, in Iran, since centuries, in spite of unbearable persecution and loss of Zarathushti lives, the poor Zarathushtis still maintained to the world that they ARE Zarathushtis and these few individuals in Russia (Tadjikistan, etc.) did not chose to maintain their religion or identify with it till recently, till after the USSR collapsed? If they were Zarathushtis, we would have known about their existence since centuries! The only answer is that it is indeed conversion taking place in these countries since the past few years, which is religiously forbidden!
8: She even said that the Constitution of India, article 19 grants her freedom to teach religion but we maintained that she is not free to teach our divinely revealed religion as per her own individual understanding and practices but she can follow the religion only as per the rules and tenets revealed in our Sacred book, the Holy Avesta, and as per the established millennia old customs, rituals and traditions of our religious community!
9: We pointed out that Mikhail had come to India only on a Visitor’s Visa which bars him from taking part in any rituals. He is not permitted to indulge in religious activities of another faith especially when that religious faith follows its religious tenets of non-conversion and has lived in India and in other parts of the world peacefully and in harmony with all sister communities and religions! He did not come on a Student Visa for the so-called ‘religious education’ (or any other education), as claimed by Dame Meher Master-Moos! We pointed out some sections of the Code that respects the belief and practices of all faiths and these are protected by the Govt. of India. She also said that she has good relations with the Russian Embassy staff and they easily provide her with visas for other Russians (such as Mikhail).
10: Most importantly, we expressed our legitimate concern of these so-called ‘conversions’ of others, especially from the Islamic faith, from the Central Asian countries. Some of these individuals may be terrorists and get converted by Dame Meher Master-Moos at the Zoroastrian College at Sanjan or at any other location in the world. Further, if any such so-called converted ‘Zoroastrian’ acts as a terrorist in India or anywhere else, our community will loose its centuries’ old reputation of being the most peaceful community that exists in the world today! What if someone dons the sudreh-kusti-topi and performs acts of violence anywhere in the world, how will we prove that the individual is not a P-I-Z? This is a very serious issue. Mr. Chistyakov himself admitted that he is performing the navjote ceremony of other Russians! Can he, Meher Master-Moos, or Mr. Jamsheedi guarantee that all and any converts they are responsible for converting to our religion will not turn out to be terrorists? Additionally, Mikhail was told to refer to Gatha 32.3 (because he referred to the Holy Gathas first) that Asho Zarathsuhtra teaches only the moral conversion when he asks to convert the army of akoman (anger-mainyu) to spenta-mainyu because it is the army of akoman which has spread all over the 7 regions; Asho Zarathsuhtra has not mentioned even once anywhere in the Avesta to convert other followers of other revealed religions! Mr. Chistyakov said that I am a Z priest in my Russian community, Kamran Jamsheedi, the Iranian priest, made me a priest in 2000! We asked and still wonder as to how a “herbad”/ mobed, be “manufactured” without any alaat (including nirang and varasiaji’s hair required for the viti), in any environment outside the ritually consecrated place of worship where even the fire is not maintained throughout? And, without the officiating priest himself taking the barshnoom? All these are religiously not just unacceptable rituals for making navars but make a mockery of our religion! He also said that he joined the Mazdayasnie Monasterie in 2000 when a Z Congress was held at St. Petersburg. He said there were many Parsis who attended, they were from India too. Burzin Atashband introduced him to Meher Master-Moos. He also admitted that priests in Bombay do not like foreigners entering “places of religion”.
To conclude this long report, Mr. Dinshaw Mehta was instrumental in the withdrawal of complaints from both the parties in the name of peace. He has made a written agreement that Mikhail’s further ceremony will be immediately stopped and he will return to Russia at the earliest; that for the future, Meher Master-Moos will FIRST inform the BPP Chair, Mr. Mehta, of any impending navjote of a P-I-Z and give adequate proof of the ancestry of the navjotee to the satisfaction of Mr. Mehta and this is approved in consultation with the High priest; navjote will be allowed only thereafter. Mr. Mehta also very generously promised that if Mikhail shows the documented proof that he is of P-I-Z ancestry, the cost of his ticket, Rs, 75,000, will be reimbursed to him by Mr. Dinshaw Rusi Mehta himself!
Prof. Faredoon A. Kapadia was very vocal and helpful in dealing with the situation at Sanjan. My most sincere thanks and appreciation go to Dinshaw Mehta for always and always supporting a religious cause!
Special kudos go to the stalwarts from Surat who always help when help is needed. Mr. Katpitia could barely walk; he was walking with the aid of a walking stick and help from individuals and yet he came to defend his religion!
This is not a complete report. I had to write fast and have missed jotting down many points.
Sincerely,
Pervin J. Mistry
(Copied from the Traditional Mazdaysnie Zarathushtri Mailing list with due permission from the author)
Nairika,
I was writing about MY experience with the Intermarrieds in the USA .
Kindly do not twist the matter and make it about YOU !!!
Saf…
I have not once mentioned my stance on conversion, so you are totally off the mark when you lump together, any opinion that differs in the slightest from yours.
I would request all of you to keep the tone civil, and not get into personal attacks with ANY blogger.
Did Asho Zarathushtra Convert ? If not, how did he get followers into the religion ?
Is Conversion acceptable to the Mazadaysnie Zarathushtri faith ?
If God is one, and we are all children of the same God, why should there be different religions, different prophets ?
Are we allowed to “choose” the religioin we would like to follow ?
All these pertinent questions keep popping up frequently in our inquisitive minds. Visit the links below to learn more.
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/Acceptance-NeverEver.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/ConversionFanaticsAtParliament.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/UniversalityDoesNotImplyProselytism.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/youth33b.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/roni33a.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/CONVERSION%20CAUCUS.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/mythconv33.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/notpres33.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/didnot33.html
awwww rustom, quit your lawaaro-bakaaro ….
If you can just answer a simple question, if CONVERSION IS NOT ALLOWED IN ZOROASTRIANISM, WHY DID ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS REBELLED AGAINST SASSANID ZOROASTRIAN REGIME???
And Mr. Jamshed H. Bastani, whether you are 80 years or 8years its never too late to gain some credible knowledge by your own efforts rather than choosing to still live in the dark ages at the mercy of few self serving clergies who are themselves not sure of haram or halal.
And fyi, the reason why the mighty Sassanian empire collapse so helplessly against its enemy half its size, was because the moral foundations of the nation were sapped by RELIGIOUS MANIACS who even than thought Zoroastrianism was their private property and they have a divine duty to police other people’s lives.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/history/persia_1.shtml
Anti-Dongee, appro chicken puff/mutton puff/powder puff has by now mastered the art of talking with both his feet in his mouth… so its highly confusing when he calls us ‘dust under his sapaat’, which he presumably wears on his head or in his mouth, considering his current position.
And after admitting openly that bodies rot and smell in Dokhma, sadly left with no feet, its would be painful to see him accommodating more organs in his mouth…
AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN
Dear members,
By now you may have read the first hand report I sent to The Times of India and Mumbai Mirror regarding, “Parsis storm Zoroastrian College to stop conversion of Russian”.
Here are some extra facts:
1: It came as a shock to know that Meher Master-Moos was conducting a ‘navar’ ritual of a Muslim from Tadjikistan (later, it was found out that the individual was from Russia and not Tadjikistan), at her ‘Z’ College at Sanjan! The day before yesterday, on the 18th, even before the group from Bombay left for Sanjan to ask Meher Master-Moos some questions about this clandestine religiously illegal so-called ‘navar’ ritual, the stalwarts from Surat and Navsari, Noshir Dordee, Soli Katpitia (so old he could barely walk), Ronnie Patrawalla, Neville Pithawalla, Jimmy Bacha from Navsari (I am sorry, I think I have inadvertently left out other names), went to the Zoroastrian College at Sanjan. The two renegade priests, Khushroo Madon and Dhunjishaw Karanjia simply ran away on seeing these stalwarts, even before they could ask questions! IF these two priests were performing a religiously legal, established ritual with proper tarikats, there was NO cause for them to run away! They would have stood their ground, let the dedicated baste-kustian P-I-Zs from Surat/Navsari see what was going on at the so-called ‘Zoroastrian’ College and continued with the ritual! But, they ran away because they were caught in the clandestine act of performing a religiously illegal ritual!
2: Yesterday, on February 19, early morning, a group of about 35 of us left for Sanjan to stop this sheer religious crime of making a navar of a juddin! Our questions: a) how can a juddin become a navar when even the behdin boys, no matter how religious, can become navars by going through the navar ritual? b) The ritual of navar, is a spiritually high initiation ceremony since the priests are descended from Ahura Mazda and Asho Zarathushtra in a continuous succession, from unbroken priestly descent. This ritual cannot be performed even if the male member from a priestly family is not of continuous descent, i.e. the lineage is broken if 3 generations of continuity with the navar ritual is not maintained. This is pertinent because individuals like Mr. Chistyakov have no proof to offer that they were Zs prior to the Rusian Revolution 70 years ago and have followed, since the past 3 generations, the priestly profession by undergoing the navar ritual. (Irani boys from priestly families were sent to India from Iran for their navar ritual and religious studies.) c) How can this important ritual be performed in an unconsecrated place such as the Z College at Sanjan? This ritual is only performed within the consecrated agiaries and atashbehrams where the Pav Mahal is operating and functional! d) It can be performed only if all the alaat is present which requires a hair from a varasiaji! Where was this absolutely requisite hair from a varasiaji procured from, for this ritual at Sanjan? It is abundantly clear that none of these religious rules were followed!
3: While we were all still at the Z College, Mr. Dinshaw Mehta asked Ms. Meher Master-Moos to stop this ‘navar’ ritual immediately; to send the Russian individual back to St. Petersburg with the condition that Dinshaw himself would pay for his ticket! In answer, Ms. Meher Master-Moos wanted Mr. Dinshaw Mehta to give her 2 crores of rupees and send a varasiaji to St. Petersburg and she agreed to do what he suggested only after he agreed to her 2 conditions! We were shocked because this is religious extortion! And, send a varasiaji to St. Petersburg? Why? So she and others could carry on with din-dushmani of performing navjotes, navars and maratabs in Europe and elsewhere? Of course, Mr. Dinshaw Mehta did not agree to her demands!
4: While at the Police Station, Ms. Meher Master-Moos was questioned by the Police Inspector, Mr. Mukund Mahajan. She maintained that Mr. Mikhail Chistyakov was a “Zoroastrian” of Z descent! Mr. Chistyakov himelf confessed that he is not a “Parsi”, his parents were not Parsis either and even their navjote was never performed. He said that about 40 Russians have ‘become Zoroastrians’ through the initiation of navjote at St. Persburg in 1992 or 1994; his was performed by Kamran Jamsheedi from Iran who now lives in Russia, at Moscow. Mikhail was born in 1962. He even confessed that his navar was done was by the same priest Kamran, in 2000. So, the question was voiced, if his navar was already performed, why was there any need of another navar ritual unless this was a purported maratab ritual? We asked him which religion he followed, because we were told he was a Muslim, he did not confirm nor deny but only said that he was “Zoroastrian” because he likes it and believes in Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta; that he was from the Russian Federation where anyone can choose any religion. So, he did not have a Parsi/Irani Z ancestry as claimed.
Also, he was told in no uncertain terms that he cannot be a ‘Zoroastrian’ without being a Parsi because the 2 terms are synonymous! He was quoted the identity of a “Zarathushti” since Achaemenian times, from Darius the Great’s inscription at Naqsh-i-Rustom: “parsa parsahya puthra ariya ariyachithra”, indentifying himself as a Parsi, of Parsi lineage! Naturally, in several other inscriptions all over Iran but especially at Gunj Nameh, the words “Ahura Mazda” also appear proving that all the Achaemenian Kings were “Zarathushtis” as well as “Parsi”! He was also informed that late Dasturji Hormazdyar Kayoji Mirza has established in the Court at Bombay that Parsi is not a race and Zarthushtrianism a religion, but the two terms are synonymous and a Parsi is a Zarathushti and a Zarathushti is a Parsi, by birth, race and religion! Mr. Chistyakov did not know this.
5: He was asked if he entered any agiaries or atashbehrams in Bombay but we were informed by Meher Master-Moos that Mr. Chistyakov had visited Bombay and her College twice before, making this his third visit! We were told that this time he had not visited any agiaries / atashbehrams. We wonder, does this mean he has visited our consecrated places before? If so, the responsibility of breaking our religious rules and spiritual kash lies on the shoulders of Meher Master-Moos for misguiding the gullible individuals in Tadjikistan, and other Central Asian countries, including Russia!
6: Ms. Meher Master-Moos also maintained that all her priests are Parsi priests and that our priests in India have accepted Mikhail Chistyakov! We were horrified to know this especially when we saw the book about her College she had presented to the Police Inspector of Sanjan, Mr Mukund Mahajan. In the book, we saw photos of late Dasturji Kaikobad Dastoor of Udvada, Dasturji Khurshed of Udvada, Ervad Firoze Andhyarujina of Udvada (his photo was identified as from his visit to Dushanbe some years ago), Ervad Cyrus Dastoor of the Frohar Films; Behramshah D. Pithawalla and Dusturji Dr. Peshotan Mirza! Of major concern was this photo of Dasturji Saheb Mirza and I immediately raised my concern in no uncertain terms because his photo showed him standing with the same individual, Mikhail Chistyakov, identified as: “Herbad” Mikhail Chistiakov, on the opposite page. Under the photo, it was written, “Almatta, October 2005”! I knew this could never happen. I checked with Dasturji Saheb this morning and he has categorically denied that he has ever visited Almatta! Not in 2005 October as falsely claimed, or ever! Of course, Meher Master-Moos’ false assertion that her priests are Parsis and all Parsi priests have accepted her ‘priests’ is not at all believable! It is a lie, an outright lie! Dasturji can even prove that he has never visited Almatta! I was very upset that the fake photo of Dasturji Mirza with Mikhail Chistyakov and other photos of other Dasturjis and priests were used to promote her “Z” College!
7: We asked many other questions to both, such as, 1) it is alleged that she charges $ 1,500 for each navjote performed in Tadjikistan and at other Central Asian Countries (including Russia) and so, how much did Mr. Chistyakov pay for this ritual? He replied in the negative. 2) We asked him where he stayed in Bombay and he said at Dinyar’s place at Cama Park. He didn’t remember the exact address of the building, and did not give us the full name, etc. 3) We maintained that we entered her ‘Z’ College premises because as she herself maintains, it is an educational institution alone, providing education in Avesta as well as priestly education; but then what was the reason of her objection to our entering her ‘Z’ College when as Parsis we could go in and visit any time; why the cause of the secrecy in performing this ‘navar’ ritual? She replied that “making a priest is educational”! We asked again and wonder as to how can any religiously illegal ritual be ‘educational’? 4) She also said that she does not convert and that Mikhail’s forefathers were Zoroastrians! We asked as to why, in Iran, since centuries, in spite of unbearable persecution and loss of Zarathushti lives, the poor Zarathushtis still maintained to the world that they ARE Zarathushtis and these few individuals in Russia (Tadjikistan, etc.) did not chose to maintain their religion or identify with it till recently, till after the USSR collapsed? If they were Zarathushtis, we would have known about their existence since centuries! The only answer is that it is indeed conversion taking place in these countries since the past few years, which is religiously forbidden!
8: She even said that the Constitution of India, article 19 grants her freedom to teach religion but we maintained that she is not free to teach our divinely revealed religion as per her own individual understanding and practices but she can follow the religion only as per the rules and tenets revealed in our Sacred book, the Holy Avesta, and as per the established millennia old customs, rituals and traditions of our religious community!
9: We pointed out that Mikhail had come to India only on a Visitor’s Visa which bars him from taking part in any rituals. He is not permitted to indulge in religious activities of another faith especially when that religious faith follows its religious tenets of non-conversion and has lived in India and in other parts of the world peacefully and in harmony with all sister communities and religions! He did not come on a Student Visa for the so-called ‘religious education’ (or any other education), as claimed by Dame Meher Master-Moos! We pointed out some sections of the Code that respects the belief and practices of all faiths and these are protected by the Govt. of India. She also said that she has good relations with the Russian Embassy staff and they easily provide her with visas for other Russians (such as Mikhail).
10: Most importantly, we expressed our legitimate concern of these so-called ‘conversions’ of others, especially from the Islamic faith, from the Central Asian countries. Some of these individuals may be terrorists and get converted by Dame Meher Master-Moos at the Zoroastrian College at Sanjan or at any other location in the world. Further, if any such so-called converted ‘Zoroastrian’ acts as a terrorist in India or anywhere else, our community will loose its centuries’ old reputation of being the most peaceful community that exists in the world today! What if someone dons the sudreh-kusti-topi and performs acts of violence anywhere in the world, how will we prove that the individual is not a P-I-Z? This is a very serious issue. Mr. Chistyakov himself admitted that he is performing the navjote ceremony of other Russians! Can he, Meher Master-Moos, or Mr. Jamsheedi guarantee that all and any converts they are responsible for converting to our religion will not turn out to be terrorists? Additionally, Mikhail was told to refer to Gatha 32.3 (because he referred to the Holy Gathas first) that Asho Zarathsuhtra teaches only the moral conversion when he asks to convert the army of akoman (anger-mainyu) to spenta-mainyu because it is the army of akoman which has spread all over the 7 regions; Asho Zarathsuhtra has not mentioned even once anywhere in the Avesta to convert other followers of other revealed religions! Mr. Chistyakov said that I am a Z priest in my Russian community, Kamran Jamsheedi, the Iranian priest, made me a priest in 2000! We asked and still wonder as to how a “herbad”/ mobed, be “manufactured” without any alaat (including nirang and varasiaji’s hair required for the viti), in any environment outside the ritually consecrated place of worship where even the fire is not maintained throughout? And, without the officiating priest himself taking the barshnoom? All these are religiously not just unacceptable rituals for making navars but make a mockery of our religion! He also said that he joined the Mazdayasnie Monasterie in 2000 when a Z Congress was held at St. Petersburg. He said there were many Parsis who attended, they were from India too. Burzin Atashband introduced him to Meher Master-Moos. He also admitted that priests in Bombay do not like foreigners entering “places of religion”.
To conclude this long report, Mr. Dinshaw Mehta was instrumental in the withdrawal of complaints from both the parties in the name of peace. He has made a written agreement that Mikhail’s further ceremony will be immediately stopped and he will return to Russia at the earliest; that for the future, Meher Master-Moos will FIRST inform the BPP Chair, Mr. Mehta, of any impending navjote of a P-I-Z and give adequate proof of the ancestry of the navjotee to the satisfaction of Mr. Mehta and this is approved in consultation with the High priest; navjote will be allowed only thereafter. Mr. Mehta also very generously promised that if Mikhail shows the documented proof that he is of P-I-Z ancestry, the cost of his ticket, Rs, 75,000, will be reimbursed to him by Mr. Dinshaw Rusi Mehta himself!
Prof. Faredoon A. Kapadia was very vocal and helpful in dealing with the situation at Sanjan. My most sincere thanks and appreciation go to Dinshaw Mehta for always and always supporting a religious cause!
Special kudos go to the stalwarts from Surat who always help when help is needed. Mr. Katpitia could barely walk; he was walking with the aid of a walking stick and help from individuals and yet he came to defend his religion!
This is not a complete report. I had to write fast and have missed jotting down many points.
Sincerely,
Pervin J. Mistry
(Copied from the Traditional Mazdaysnie Zarathushtri Mailing list with due permission from the author)
Hey Rustom darling, you are still here doing your Bheja nu Dahi here!!!… I thought as a self proclaimed ‘Saviours of Zoroastrianism’, you were going to Iran to negotiate with Ahmadinejaad !!
Anyway since you are still here…Can you tell us…
Which book of yours says Conversion to Zoroastrianism is unZoroastrian and When was that book written and by whom?
Hey Rustom darling, you are still here doing your Bheja nu Dahi !!!… I thought as a self proclaimed ‘Saviours of Zoroastrianism’, you were going to Iran to negotiate with AhMADinejaad !!
Anyway since you are still here…Can you tell us…
Which book of yours says Conversion to Zoroastrianism is unZoroastrian and When was that book written and by whom?
Did Asho Zarathushtra Convert ? If not, how did he get followers into the religion ?
Is Conversion acceptable to the Mazadaysnie Zarathushtri faith ?
If God is one, and we are all children of the same God, why should there be different religions, different prophets ?
Are we allowed to “choose” the religioin we would like to follow ?
All these pertinent questions keep popping up frequently in our inquisitive minds. Visit the links below to learn more.
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/Acceptance-NeverEver.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/ConversionFanaticsAtParliament.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/UniversalityDoesNotImplyProselytism.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/youth33b.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/roni33a.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/CONVERSION%20CAUCUS.pdf
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/mythconv33.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/notpres33.html
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/didnot33.html
awwww rustom, quit your lawaaro-bakaaro ….
If you can just answer a simple question, if CONVERSION IS NOT ALLOWED IN ZOROASTRIANISM, WHY DID ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS REBELLED AGAINST SASSANID ZOROASTRIAN REGIME???
And Mr. Jamshed H. Bastani, whether you are 80 years or 8years its never too late to gain some credible knowledge by your own efforts rather than choosing to still live in the dark ages at the mercy of few self serving clergies who are themselves not sure of haram or halal.
And fyi, the reason why the mighty Sassanian empire collapse so helplessly against its enemy half its size, was because the moral foundations of the nation were sapped by RELIGIOUS MANIACS who even than thought Zoroastrianism was their private property and they have a divine duty to police other people’s lives.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/history/persia_1.shtml
Anti-Dongee, appro chicken puff/mutton puff/powder puff has by now mastered the art of talking with both his feet in his mouth… so its highly confusing when he calls us ‘dust under his sapaat’, which he presumably wears on his head or in his mouth, considering his current position.
And after admitting openly that bodies rot and smell in Dokhma, sadly left with no feet, its would be painful to see him accommodating more organs in his mouth…
Hey Rustom darling, you are still here doing your Bheja nu Dahi here!!!… I thought as a self proclaimed ‘Saviours of Zoroastrianism’, you were going to Iran to negotiate with Ahmadinejaad !!
Anyway since you are still here…Can you tell us…
Which book of yours says Conversion to Zoroastrianism is unZoroastrian and When was that book written and by whom?
Anti- Dhongidox,a rustomjee, saf and others,
I totally agree with what has been stated in one of the above messages which is reproduced by me. Such acts, if true are damaging to our Religion.:
“Fact also is that we have had factual examples of people runing around naked in front of fruits claiming that it is a zoroastrian practise.”
“Fact also is that we have had case of people smoking marajuana n caught whilst smugling it across borders claiming that this is a zoroastrian practise..(same principle– promoting Zoroastrianism)”
“Fact also is that some cults have misrepresented hoama ceremony as ‘Bhang’ drinking’…all in the name of reviving Zoroastrianism..”
I have the honesty of purpose and courage to condemn such acts in the name of Zoroastrianism and support all those who oppose such sacrilege and make mockery of our Religion.
But that does not justify vandalism and violating constitutional guarantee of practicing and promoting one’s faith. As mentioned by many, this Russian was never going to gain entry in to local fire temples nor would he have practiced his profession in this country.And would our ‘brave’ defenders of faith travelled abroad if the same ‘ceremony’ had been conducted say in US or UK or for that matter else where in the Universe?
And what about the intermarried family members of those who led this ‘event’ ? Another case of double standards.
Lastly, I am glad to read that the ‘saviours’ admit being miniscule. when he says ‘Also with such a minuscle number we try and preserve ……’
Better late than never in admitting one’s position of being in minority.
Hey Rustom darling, you are still here doing your Bheja nu Dahi !!!… I thought as a self proclaimed ‘Saviours of Zoroastrianism’, you were going to Iran to negotiate with AhMADinejaad !!
Anyway since you are still here…Can you tell us…
Which book of yours says Conversion to Zoroastrianism is unZoroastrian and When was that book written and by whom?
RSS VHP BAJRANG DAL AND NEW ADDITION
BPP
What an IDEA sir ji !!
Anti- Dhongidox,a rustomjee, saf and others,
I totally agree with what has been stated in one of the above messages which is reproduced by me. Such acts, if true are damaging to our Religion.:
“Fact also is that we have had factual examples of people runing around naked in front of fruits claiming that it is a zoroastrian practise.”
“Fact also is that we have had case of people smoking marajuana n caught whilst smugling it across borders claiming that this is a zoroastrian practise..(same principle– promoting Zoroastrianism)”
“Fact also is that some cults have misrepresented hoama ceremony as ‘Bhang’ drinking’…all in the name of reviving Zoroastrianism..”
I have the honesty of purpose and courage to condemn such acts in the name of Zoroastrianism and support all those who oppose such sacrilege and make mockery of our Religion.
But that does not justify vandalism and violating constitutional guarantee of practicing and promoting one’s faith. As mentioned by many, this Russian was never going to gain entry in to local fire temples nor would he have practiced his profession in this country.And would our ‘brave’ defenders of faith travelled abroad if the same ‘ceremony’ had been conducted say in US or UK or for that matter else where in the Universe?
And what about the intermarried family members of those who led this ‘event’ ? Another case of double standards.
Lastly, I am glad to read that the ‘saviours’ admit being miniscule. when he says ‘Also with such a minuscle number we try and preserve ……’
Better late than never in admitting one’s position of being in minority.
Whats up with everyone getting so personal on forums? Would you people converse in the same way, tone and manner if this topic was struck up at a common friends dinner party? Its one thing to argue over a particular topic or belief but another to make baseless personal attacks and get nit-picky on trivial details. I’ll bite the fruit of hypocrisy and state one of my own observations from the many that have actually given me a good laugh.
For example:
“Also, just so you know the meaning of the word ‘vandalism’ I am copying from a web dictionary:
van·dal·ism (vndl-zm) n.
Willful or malicious destruction of public or private property
Hence, converting a Russian into a Zoroastrian priest is not vandalism no matter how hard you try to convince us that it is (referencing your last statement).”
To the above writer, I’d now like to share with you the meaning of the word “metaphor”, and yes I am copying from a web dictionary:
Metaphor (n): a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”
Therefore, I hope you stand convinced that when used as a metaphor it would be perfectly acceptable to use vandalism in the context applied to by the original commenter. Conversion as vandalism appears to be a perfectly legitimate metaphor in my eyes (irrespective of whether one agrees with the metaphor or not).
I am not sure why the English Language is being discussed on here in the first place, but I couldn’t resist opposing an obvious flaw in your needless argument.
Secondly, few questions for Ms. Behram Dhabhar or Ms. Pervin Mistry:
1. Are you sure the words Parsi and Zoroastrian are really synonymous? The term ‘Parsi’ itself is “not necessarily an indication of Iranian or ‘Persian’ origin, but rather as indicator — manifest as several properties — of ethnic identity” (Stausberg 2002, p. I. 373). Moreover, (if heredity were the only factor in a determination of ethnicity) the Parsis — per Qissa — would count as Parthians. (Boyce 2002, p. 105) The term ‘Parseeism’ (or ‘Parsiism’) is attributed to Anquetil-Duperron, who in the 1750s, when the word ‘Zoroastrianism’ had yet to be coined, made the first detailed report of the Parsis and of Zoroastrianism, therein mistakenly assuming that the Parsis were the only remaining followers of the religion. Paris refers to Zoroastrians from India only and not from other countries.
2. Don’t you think suggesting the people of a certain ethnicity as likely to be terrorists to add up to racial profiling? “Racial profiling is the inclusion of racial or ethnic characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act or to behave in a “predictable” manner.” If you are offended that a particular Parsi is practicing unaccepted rituals, I and any other self-respecting Parsi should be equally offended by such racist mentality that may easily be tagged to the community as a whole.
3. If the conversions are being done by people who aren’t priests in the first place, would the navar ceremony then not be nullified anyway? So what’s the problem?
4. FYI – Non Zoroastrians enter fire temples in Bombay all the time. My Hindu friend has been in one herself as a kid. Not saying I advocate or promote or collaborated in any attempts but just wondering why people are so shocked or surprised to think it might actually be happening.
RSS VHP BAJRANG DAL AND NEW ADDITION
BPP
What an IDEA sir ji !!
Whats up with everyone getting so personal on forums? Would you people converse in the same way, tone and manner if this topic was struck up at a common friends dinner party? Its one thing to argue over a particular topic or belief but another to make baseless personal attacks and get nit-picky on trivial details. I’ll bite the fruit of hypocrisy and state one of my own observations from the many that have actually given me a good laugh.
For example:
“Also, just so you know the meaning of the word ‘vandalism’ I am copying from a web dictionary:
van·dal·ism (vndl-zm) n.
Willful or malicious destruction of public or private property
Hence, converting a Russian into a Zoroastrian priest is not vandalism no matter how hard you try to convince us that it is (referencing your last statement).”
To the above writer, I’d now like to share with you the meaning of the word “metaphor”, and yes I am copying from a web dictionary:
Metaphor (n): a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”
Therefore, I hope you stand convinced that when used as a metaphor it would be perfectly acceptable to use vandalism in the context applied to by the original commenter. Conversion as vandalism appears to be a perfectly legitimate metaphor in my eyes (irrespective of whether one agrees with the metaphor or not).
I am not sure why the English Language is being discussed on here in the first place, but I couldn’t resist opposing an obvious flaw in your needless argument.
Secondly, few questions for Ms. Behram Dhabhar or Ms. Pervin Mistry:
1. Are you sure the words Parsi and Zoroastrian are really synonymous? The term ‘Parsi’ itself is “not necessarily an indication of Iranian or ‘Persian’ origin, but rather as indicator — manifest as several properties — of ethnic identity” (Stausberg 2002, p. I. 373). Moreover, (if heredity were the only factor in a determination of ethnicity) the Parsis — per Qissa — would count as Parthians. (Boyce 2002, p. 105) The term ‘Parseeism’ (or ‘Parsiism’) is attributed to Anquetil-Duperron, who in the 1750s, when the word ‘Zoroastrianism’ had yet to be coined, made the first detailed report of the Parsis and of Zoroastrianism, therein mistakenly assuming that the Parsis were the only remaining followers of the religion. Paris refers to Zoroastrians from India only and not from other countries.
2. Don’t you think suggesting the people of a certain ethnicity as likely to be terrorists to add up to racial profiling? “Racial profiling is the inclusion of racial or ethnic characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act or to behave in a “predictable” manner.” If you are offended that a particular Parsi is practicing unaccepted rituals, I and any other self-respecting Parsi should be equally offended by such racist mentality that may easily be tagged to the community as a whole.
3. If the conversions are being done by people who aren’t priests in the first place, would the navar ceremony then not be nullified anyway? So what’s the problem?
4. FYI – Non Zoroastrians enter fire temples in Bombay all the time. My Hindu friend has been in one herself as a kid. Not saying I advocate or promote or collaborated in any attempts but just wondering why people are so shocked or surprised to think it might actually be happening.
saf,
The mumbo jumbo written in tenets.parsizoroastrianism is considered as ‘authentic and original source’.
“We ” must rely on this ‘archaeological proof’. You know, our ancestors had websites from times immemorial just as they had Refrigerators to make Ice cream and frozen desserts.
You ought to know better SAF. The one who claims to have divine contacts is arranging a Tour to Iran in April.
Hitchhiking and travelling as a stowaway are distinct possibilities.
You may differ but at least Bheja nu Dahi is more intellectual then Dahi nu Puff.
Behram,
All i ask is, show me any verse from your books that says that although Ahura Mazda is the creator of this world, yet he choose only Parsis from iran to get wisdom from him via Zarathustra.
If you have please show… If you don’t have its understood that your position- ‘CONVERSION is not allowed in Zoroastrianism’, is based on no credible evidence from scripture or history and thus its MISINFORMATION FLOATED BY PARASITE BRAND OF PARSIS IN INDIA FOR THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST IN HOLDING ON TO FOKAT NA FLATS AND CHARITIES And therefore it has nothing to do with ZOROASTRIANISM PER SE.
THESE PARSIS SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS FOLLOWERS OF PARSISM…NOT ZOROASTRIANISM. CLEAR?
Regarding the links you gave are dismissed as they are unscholarly write ups by individuals who still suffer from Nazism hang overs. Besides advocating an absolute overbearing racist agenda equivalent to supremacist cultists like KKK, these essays are historically and factually inaccurate since they lack any credible evidence to support their claims.
The fact is –
NO RELIGION, INCLUDING ZOROASTRIANISM, HAS EVER SPREAD WITHOUT ACCEPTING NEW CONVERTS.
IF YOU LIKE I CAN GIVE YOU HISTORICAL PROOF OF THIS SO THAT YOU AND YOUR NAZI BUDDIES AT TZML CAN UNTWIST THEIR TWISTED AGENDA FOR GOOD.
saf,
The mumbo jumbo written in tenets.parsizoroastrianism is considered as ‘authentic and original source’.
“We ” must rely on this ‘archaeological proof’. You know, our ancestors had websites from times immemorial just as they had Refrigerators to make Ice cream and frozen desserts.
“Also, he was told in no uncertain terms that he cannot be a ‘Zoroastrian’ without being a Parsi because the 2 terms are synonymous! “. In one sentence, Ms.Pervin Mistry has disenfranchised the 70,000 Zarathustis living in Iran. Well done, madam. I may not be as great a religious scholar as she professes to be, but I would imagine that our co-religionists in Iran come from the same stock as the “heroic” Parsis who fled in panic; the only difference being they chose to stay behind and practice their ancient religion in secret. According to Mistry’s convoluted logic, that qualifies them for automatic excommunication. The irony is that we Parsis, who have blatantly adopted Hindu customs like achu-michu, chalk-toran and the like, are considerd the “pure” breed.
Ms.Mistry is entitled to shut herself up in her ivory tower, but she has skirted the main issue. Whatever be the imagined provocation, does it justify breaking furniture, assaulting staff members and generally behaving like hooligans? Is this part of our “glorious Parsi heritage” that the traditionalists keep tom-toming about?
After reading the ‘AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN” I have only two questions to ask its author:
Q.1. What action the STALWARTS will take against
Kamran Jamsheedi?
Q.2.. If the entire ceremony was supposedly not in
consonance with the Tenets of Religion then it is void
abinitio. So why this drum beating and tom tomming?
Are we going to issue Identity Cards to local Parsis
to be shown at the entrance of Fire Temples?
You ought to know better SAF. The one who claims to have divine contacts is arranging a Tour to Iran in April.
Hitchhiking and travelling as a stowaway are distinct possibilities.
You may differ but at least Bheja nu Dahi is more intellectual then Dahi nu Puff.
Behram,
All i ask is, show me any verse from your books that says that although Ahura Mazda is the creator of this world, yet he choose only Parsis from iran to get wisdom from him via Zarathustra.
If you have please show… If you don’t have its understood that your position- ‘CONVERSION is not allowed in Zoroastrianism’, is based on no credible evidence from scripture or history and thus its MISINFORMATION FLOATED BY PARASITE BRAND OF PARSIS IN INDIA FOR THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST IN HOLDING ON TO FOKAT NA FLATS AND CHARITIES And therefore it has nothing to do with ZOROASTRIANISM PER SE.
THESE PARSIS SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS FOLLOWERS OF PARSISM…NOT ZOROASTRIANISM. CLEAR?
Regarding the links you gave are dismissed as they are unscholarly write ups by individuals who still suffer from Nazism hang overs. Besides advocating an absolute overbearing racist agenda equivalent to supremacist cultists like KKK, these essays are historically and factually inaccurate since they lack any credible evidence to support their claims.
The fact is –
NO RELIGION, INCLUDING ZOROASTRIANISM, HAS EVER SPREAD WITHOUT ACCEPTING NEW CONVERTS.
IF YOU LIKE I CAN GIVE YOU HISTORICAL PROOF OF THIS SO THAT YOU AND YOUR NAZI BUDDIES AT TZML CAN UNTWIST THEIR TWISTED AGENDA FOR GOOD.
@Saf, a counter question to your question.
Let us know the Avestan word “To convert”.
Also describe the “CONversion ceremony” and state the scripture where it is described.
Mr.Hirjikaka,
Yes, the Zoroastrians had other reasons for leaving Iran;
the Jizya tax ( they could have avoided paying it by converting ! ) and also, that as “non-believers” they would have to act as slaves ( once again, they could have converted to avoid it , but they chose not to ! ).
So, whatever combination of reasons they may have had for leaving Iran, protecting their religion was an important factor in their decision.
The rest of the ” Liberals “..
I hope one thing is very clear ( ” saaf ” to our Mr.Saf , too) that in THE PRESENT SITUATION , when you argue for the Intermarrieds, you are arguing for the right to have a two-religion ” Zoroastrianism ” i.e the religion of both the parents. Is that what Zarathushtra preached?
Take the case of this Parsi who has posted her comments on this blog. Her husband ( BLONDE AND BLUE EYED….. if that doesn’t impress us, Parsis, what will ? !!!!!! ) holds Zoroastrianism close to his heart but has chosen not to convert into it , despite the fact, that in the USA he would easily be able to do so.
Why this half-heartedness ?
And ofcourse, her children practise/follow both the religions of their parents ( it is only natural to want to accord the same respect to both your parents ).
While I am liberal and tolerant enough to respect their choices ( I am also aware of the double benefits of being part of two groups; and of being Christian in a country with a Christian majority ) ; I do not for a minute believe this what is the best for the Zoroastrian religion or that these decisions are made without putting self-interest first !
Nairika, read this on Parsi comedy with your sunday parsi poro…http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/inter2.html
“Also, he was told in no uncertain terms that he cannot be a ‘Zoroastrian’ without being a Parsi because the 2 terms are synonymous! “. In one sentence, Ms.Pervin Mistry has disenfranchised the 70,000 Zarathustis living in Iran. Well done, madam. I may not be as great a religious scholar as she professes to be, but I would imagine that our co-religionists in Iran come from the same stock as the “heroic” Parsis who fled in panic; the only difference being they chose to stay behind and practice their ancient religion in secret. According to Mistry’s convoluted logic, that qualifies them for automatic excommunication. The irony is that we Parsis, who have blatantly adopted Hindu customs like achu-michu, chalk-toran and the like, are considerd the “pure” breed.
Ms.Mistry is entitled to shut herself up in her ivory tower, but she has skirted the main issue. Whatever be the imagined provocation, does it justify breaking furniture, assaulting staff members and generally behaving like hooligans? Is this part of our “glorious Parsi heritage” that the traditionalists keep tom-toming about?
After reading the ‘AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN” I have only two questions to ask its author:
Q.1. What action the STALWARTS will take against
Kamran Jamsheedi?
Q.2.. If the entire ceremony was supposedly not in
consonance with the Tenets of Religion then it is void
abinitio. So why this drum beating and tom tomming?
Are we going to issue Identity Cards to local Parsis
to be shown at the entrance of Fire Temples?
@Saf, a counter question to your question.
Let us know the Avestan word “To convert”.
Also describe the “CONversion ceremony” and state the scripture where it is described.
Mr.Hirjikaka,
Yes, the Zoroastrians had other reasons for leaving Iran;
the Jizya tax ( they could have avoided paying it by converting ! ) and also, that as “non-believers” they would have to act as slaves ( once again, they could have converted to avoid it , but they chose not to ! ).
So, whatever combination of reasons they may have had for leaving Iran, protecting their religion was an important factor in their decision.
The rest of the ” Liberals “..
I hope one thing is very clear ( ” saaf ” to our Mr.Saf , too) that in THE PRESENT SITUATION , when you argue for the Intermarrieds, you are arguing for the right to have a two-religion ” Zoroastrianism ” i.e the religion of both the parents. Is that what Zarathushtra preached?
Take the case of this Parsi who has posted her comments on this blog. Her husband ( BLONDE AND BLUE EYED….. if that doesn’t impress us, Parsis, what will ? !!!!!! ) holds Zoroastrianism close to his heart but has chosen not to convert into it , despite the fact, that in the USA he would easily be able to do so.
Why this half-heartedness ?
And ofcourse, her children practise/follow both the religions of their parents ( it is only natural to want to accord the same respect to both your parents ).
While I am liberal and tolerant enough to respect their choices ( I am also aware of the double benefits of being part of two groups; and of being Christian in a country with a Christian majority ) ; I do not for a minute believe this what is the best for the Zoroastrian religion or that these decisions are made without putting self-interest first !
Nairika, read this on Parsi comedy with your sunday parsi poro…http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/inter2.html
AR – Reference your question as regards the meaning of the words Parsi and Zoroastrian please refer to the clarifications in this article
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/whoisaparsi33.html
In the case of the MMM episode at Sanjan two Parsi Zoroastrian priests were employed to initiate the Russian into priesthood. So how can you say that the ceremony was not carried out by priests ? The Alaat for this mock ceremony was supplied and transported to Sanjan by a Parsi trustee of a Bombay Agyari who himself was intermarried, stood for and lost the recent BPP elections and who encouraged such dastardly acts.
Agree that Non Zoroastrians have entered our fire temples, but this has been done on the sly. Here MMM wanted to give full legitimacy to the Russian to enter any Zoroastrian place of worship. When these Non Z are caught they are reprimanded. Imagine what would happen if they broke the rules of other sister communities. They would not have been alive.
Hindu temples in South India are equally strict and do not allow non Hindus to enter their temples. Indira Gandhi was refused entry into such a temple although she was a Hindu because she had intermarried. Would you also term that as racist ?
Farzana,
Reasons why the Sassianian Empire fell :
1. The intrigues and treacheries of the Mazdakis and Maanis.
2. Later Sassanian kings married out side the religion. (eg. Parvez Khushru’s son Shiroy)
3. Malicious planetory influence.
4. Romans, Armenians converting Zoroastrians to Christianity and betrayel of the converted zoroastrians.
5. Internal feuds and disunity among Zarathushtris.
6. Cruel unimaginable persecution by the Arabs.
7. Natural calamities like Plague, seven years drought, and terrible sandstorm during the decisive battle of Quadesiya and Nihavand.
…
First seven lines of Para numbered 10 of ‘AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN’ are most amusing as the contents are farfetched and intended for emotional atyachar of the community. One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee. Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?
Likewise some Parsee stalwart would have been thrown out of employment by his employers for moral turpitude or some such reason. This has happened in many reputed Companies and particularly in Banks.
Does that mean that the entire community Is to be blamed and its image tarnished for act of dishonesty of one such individual. Has the community not allowed opportunities to such misguided persons to rehabilitate themselves, though some may have undergone image make over the Munnabhai way.
Entire community does not consists of persons lacking foresight and to know the ulterior motive behind such ‘anticipated apprehensions’ as the original Author assumes.
Moderator, Pl ignore my earlier post:
First seven lines of Para numbered 10 of ‘AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN’ are most amusing as the contents are farfetched and intended for emotional atyachar of the community. One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee. name Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?
Likewise some Parsee stalwart would have been thrown out of employment by his employers for moral turpitude or some such reason. This has happened in many reputed Companies and particularly in Banks.
Does that mean that the entire community Is to be blamed and its image tarnished for act of dishonesty of one such individual. Has the community not allowed opportunities to such misguided persons to rehabilitate themselves, though some may have undergone image make over the Munnabhai way.
Entire community does not consists of gullible persons unaware ofthe ulterior motive behind such ‘anticipated apprehensions’ as the original Author assumes.
The second and third lines of my post should read as under as under:
“One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee. NAME. Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?.
The second and third lines of my post should be read as under:
“One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee NAME. Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?”
Saf,
The fact that you ask these questions shows you have not even opened these links. You state that these links on the Traditional Zoroastrian website have no credibility. Who decides this ? Are you knowledgable enough to even decipher right from wrong ? Have you even scratched the surface of the Zoroastrian doctrine and Zoroastrian mysticism to know what you are talking about ? As Puff has asked you, please show him/her an Avestan word “To convert” and describe the conversion ceremony.
Now we will see how many “credible” sources you have for this explanation. I am looking out for religious proof and not historical evidence as history can twisted to suit the historian
AR – Reference your question as regards the meaning of the words Parsi and Zoroastrian please refer to the clarifications in this article
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/whoisaparsi33.html
In the case of the MMM episode at Sanjan two Parsi Zoroastrian priests were employed to initiate the Russian into priesthood. So how can you say that the ceremony was not carried out by priests ? The Alaat for this mock ceremony was supplied and transported to Sanjan by a Parsi trustee of a Bombay Agyari who himself was intermarried, stood for and lost the recent BPP elections and who encouraged such dastardly acts.
Agree that Non Zoroastrians have entered our fire temples, but this has been done on the sly. Here MMM wanted to give full legitimacy to the Russian to enter any Zoroastrian place of worship. When these Non Z are caught they are reprimanded. Imagine what would happen if they broke the rules of other sister communities. They would not have been alive.
Hindu temples in South India are equally strict and do not allow non Hindus to enter their temples. Indira Gandhi was refused entry into such a temple although she was a Hindu because she had intermarried. Would you also term that as racist ?
Farzana,
Reasons why the Sassianian Empire fell :
1. The intrigues and treacheries of the Mazdakis and Maanis.
2. Later Sassanian kings married out side the religion. (eg. Parvez Khushru’s son Shiroy)
3. Malicious planetory influence.
4. Romans, Armenians converting Zoroastrians to Christianity and betrayel of the converted zoroastrians.
5. Internal feuds and disunity among Zarathushtris.
6. Cruel unimaginable persecution by the Arabs.
7. Natural calamities like Plague, seven years drought, and terrible sandstorm during the decisive battle of Quadesiya and Nihavand.
…
First seven lines of Para numbered 10 of ‘AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN’ are most amusing as the contents are farfetched and intended for emotional atyachar of the community. One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee. Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?
Likewise some Parsee stalwart would have been thrown out of employment by his employers for moral turpitude or some such reason. This has happened in many reputed Companies and particularly in Banks.
Does that mean that the entire community Is to be blamed and its image tarnished for act of dishonesty of one such individual. Has the community not allowed opportunities to such misguided persons to rehabilitate themselves, though some may have undergone image make over the Munnabhai way.
Entire community does not consists of persons lacking foresight and to know the ulterior motive behind such ‘anticipated apprehensions’ as the original Author assumes.
Moderator, Pl ignore my earlier post:
First seven lines of Para numbered 10 of ‘AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT SANJAN’ are most amusing as the contents are farfetched and intended for emotional atyachar of the community. One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee. name Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?
Likewise some Parsee stalwart would have been thrown out of employment by his employers for moral turpitude or some such reason. This has happened in many reputed Companies and particularly in Banks.
Does that mean that the entire community Is to be blamed and its image tarnished for act of dishonesty of one such individual. Has the community not allowed opportunities to such misguided persons to rehabilitate themselves, though some may have undergone image make over the Munnabhai way.
Entire community does not consists of gullible persons unaware ofthe ulterior motive behind such ‘anticipated apprehensions’ as the original Author assumes.
The second and third lines of my post should read as under as under:
“One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee. NAME. Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?.
The second and third lines of my post should be read as under:
“One Marxist by name Gandhy is supposed to be carrying a Parsee NAME. Does that make the entire community to be Marxist supporters?”
Saf,
The fact that you ask these questions shows you have not even opened these links. You state that these links on the Traditional Zoroastrian website have no credibility. Who decides this ? Are you knowledgable enough to even decipher right from wrong ? Have you even scratched the surface of the Zoroastrian doctrine and Zoroastrian mysticism to know what you are talking about ? As Puff has asked you, please show him/her an Avestan word “To convert” and describe the conversion ceremony.
Now we will see how many “credible” sources you have for this explanation. I am looking out for religious proof and not historical evidence as history can twisted to suit the historian
Mr/Ms SAF,
The intellectual capacity of blogger lie Puff is astonishing.
It is like saying that as there is no mention of Marriage / begetting children/ etc in the Holy Scriptures so the same should not take place.
SO our Chicken Puff admits there is not a single verse in any of his pet books that says that Ahura Mazda has chosen only specific type of people to get wisdom from him… therefore Ahura mazda’s wisdom is open to all those who wish to get it…including nonZoroastrian spouses and their children. WE ARE CLEAR ON THIS. Right?
THEREFORE ALL THOSE PARSI PARASITE MOBEDS LIKE BEHRAM AKA CHICKEN PUFF, FROM DADAR PARSEE COLONY WHO COME HERE TO YAP THAT CONVERSION TO ZOROASTRIANISM IS NOT ALLOWED…ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND MISLEADING THE COMMUNITY.
Now coming to our Behram Chicken Puff’s brain dead query if the word ‘conversion’ exist in Avesthan…
Well, Behram, for your information, words generally used to imply conversion are ‘JOIN’, ‘ACCEPT’, ‘SUBMIT’, etc…And these are simple words that are a part of every damn vocabulary in the world… So dont think you can fool the world with your stupid reasoning…and incomprehensive knowledge of history and religions.
An inscription of Xerxes I (r. 486-65 b.c.e.) at Persepolis refers to supression of daiva worship in Achaemenidian territories which stretched from Mittani ruled central asia to the borders of Punjab.
Where He says- ” Where previously the daivas were wor shipped (yad). Therefore, at the command of Ahura Mazda, I destroyed this sanctuary of the daivas, and I proclaimed, “The daivas are no longer to be worshiped!” In this place where previously the daivas had been worshiped, there will be worship of Ahura Mazda ”
So Behram/Chicken Puff… The above is a clear example of forcible conversion taken up BY KING XERXES…And since he imposes worship of Ahura Mazda… im sure he had consulted priests…Also considering King Xerxes ruled before the invasion of Alexander… WE CAN BE SURE THAT CONVERSION TO ZOROASTRIANISM WAS CORE TO THE RELIGION IN THE ORIGINAL FORM TOO…
NEXT, ORTHODOX Sassanian Kings- Shapur II and Yazdegerd II not only forcibly converted NonZoroastrians esp Christians, to Zoroastrianism…But they are also known to set villagers ablaze if ppl refused to convert to Zoroastrianism or pay religious tax to Zoroastrian temples…These kings were guided by VADA DASTOORS at their court in their attempts to persecute nonzoroastrians and impose Zoroastrianism in their kingdom… This act of force conversions to Zoroastrianism started rebellion in Armenia against Sassanians which ultimately weakened Persian Empire…
SO DON’T YOU DARE SAY CONVERSION TO Z’ISM IS UNKNOWN…
DON’T YOU DARE TRY TO TWIST THE RELIGION JUST TO HOLD ON TO FOKAT NI CHARITIES AND CHARITY BLOCKS IN PARSEE COLONIES.
YOU ARE A PARSI PARASITE AND YOUR RELIGION IS PARSISM.
ZOROASTRIANISM HAS ALWAYS SUPPORTED ACCEPTANCE OF NEW CONVERTS INTO ITS FOLD RIGHT FROM THE TIME KING KAVI VISTASPA ACCEPTED ZARATHUSTRA’S DOCTRINE OF AHURA MAZDA AS ONE GOD.
AND Mr. FOOT IN THE MOUTH CHICKEN PUFF BEHRAM, GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT, BEFORE I HAMMER YOU AGAIN HERE.
Next
Rohinton says- “I hope one thing is very clear ( ” saaf ” to our Mr.Saf , too) that in THE PRESENT SITUATION , when you argue for the Intermarrieds, you are arguing for the right to have a two-religion ” Zoroastrianism ” i.e the religion of both the parents. Is that what Zarathushtra preached?”
So Rohinton, whats your problem in life if someone chooses two, three or four religions to follow at the same time?!!
FYI asho farohar that plays in imp part in Zoroastrianism was actually borrowed God of sky from pre zoroastrian Assyrrian/Babylonian religion.
http://www.pza.org.sg/History/History%20of%20the%20Farohar.htm
And next time you visit an agiary on Mehr Mahino and Mehr roj you are actually following prezoroastrian religion…under the name of Zoroastrianism. There was a pre Zoroastrian religion in Iran called Mithraism which encouraged the worship of iranic divinities like Mithra/Mehr, Anahita, Vehram, Varun etc…
When Zoroastrianism was introduced to MITHRA worshipper, they adopted it but also continued the worship of their Pre Zoroastrian divinities…Slowly these divinities were absorbed into the fold and installed into the religious practice of ZORORASTRIANISM as YAZATAS…
SO today YOU are anyway following a concoction of so many religions…under one name!!Big deal!
You Parsis don’t even know your own history nor your religion, … but that doesnot stop you from issuing senseless fatwas.
Mr/Ms SAF,
The intellectual capacity of blogger lie Puff is astonishing.
It is like saying that as there is no mention of Marriage / begetting children/ etc in the Holy Scriptures so the same should not take place.
Again no answer from so called knowledgeable on why Sassanids faced rebellions from Armenians.
SO our Chicken Puff admits there is not a single verse in any of his pet books that says that Ahura Mazda has chosen only specific type of people to get wisdom from him… therefore Ahura mazda’s wisdom is open to all those who wish to get it…including nonZoroastrian spouses and their children. WE ARE CLEAR ON THIS. Right?
THEREFORE ALL THOSE PARSI PARASITE MOBEDS LIKE BEHRAM AKA CHICKEN PUFF, FROM DADAR PARSEE COLONY WHO COME HERE TO YAP THAT CONVERSION TO ZOROASTRIANISM IS NOT ALLOWED…ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND MISLEADING THE COMMUNITY.
Now coming to our Behram Chicken Puff’s brain dead query if the word ‘conversion’ exist in Avesthan…
Well, Behram, for your information, words generally used to imply conversion are ‘JOIN’, ‘ACCEPT’, ‘SUBMIT’, etc…And these are simple words that are a part of every damn vocabulary in the world… So dont think you can fool the world with your stupid reasoning…and incomprehensive knowledge of history and religions.
An inscription of Xerxes I (r. 486-65 b.c.e.) at Persepolis refers to supression of daiva worship in Achaemenidian territories which stretched from Mittani ruled central asia to the borders of Punjab.
Where He says- ” Where previously the daivas were wor shipped (yad). Therefore, at the command of Ahura Mazda, I destroyed this sanctuary of the daivas, and I proclaimed, “The daivas are no longer to be worshiped!” In this place where previously the daivas had been worshiped, there will be worship of Ahura Mazda ”
So Behram/Chicken Puff… The above is a clear example of forcible conversion taken up BY KING XERXES…And since he imposes worship of Ahura Mazda… im sure he had consulted priests…Also considering King Xerxes ruled before the invasion of Alexander… WE CAN BE SURE THAT CONVERSION TO ZOROASTRIANISM WAS CORE TO THE RELIGION IN THE ORIGINAL FORM TOO…
NEXT, ORTHODOX Sassanian Kings- Shapur II and Yazdegerd II not only forcibly converted NonZoroastrians esp Christians, to Zoroastrianism…But they are also known to set villagers ablaze if ppl refused to convert to Zoroastrianism or pay religious tax to Zoroastrian temples…These kings were guided by VADA DASTOORS at their court in their attempts to persecute nonzoroastrians and impose Zoroastrianism in their kingdom… This act of force conversions to Zoroastrianism started rebellion in Armenia against Sassanians which ultimately weakened Persian Empire…
SO DON’T YOU DARE SAY CONVERSION TO Z’ISM IS UNKNOWN…
DON’T YOU DARE TRY TO TWIST THE RELIGION JUST TO HOLD ON TO FOKAT NI CHARITIES AND CHARITY BLOCKS IN PARSEE COLONIES.
YOU ARE A PARSI PARASITE AND YOUR RELIGION IS PARSISM.
ZOROASTRIANISM HAS ALWAYS SUPPORTED ACCEPTANCE OF NEW CONVERTS INTO ITS FOLD RIGHT FROM THE TIME KING KAVI VISTASPA ACCEPTED ZARATHUSTRA’S DOCTRINE OF AHURA MAZDA AS ONE GOD.
AND Mr. FOOT IN THE MOUTH CHICKEN PUFF BEHRAM, GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT, BEFORE I HAMMER YOU AGAIN HERE.
Next
If this is indeed true, then I can only say that the Chairman of the BPP and his cohorts have absolutely NO RIGHT to have brought such shame, in the first instance to the Zoroastrian community worldwide and in the second, to the Parsis of India, who take pride in referring to themselves as amongst the most law abiding citizens of this great country which has sheltered us.
They can and should be booked under the law.
Rohinton says- “I hope one thing is very clear ( ” saaf ” to our Mr.Saf , too) that in THE PRESENT SITUATION , when you argue for the Intermarrieds, you are arguing for the right to have a two-religion ” Zoroastrianism ” i.e the religion of both the parents. Is that what Zarathushtra preached?”
So Rohinton, whats your problem in life if someone chooses two, three or four religions to follow at the same time?!!
FYI asho farohar that plays in imp part in Zoroastrianism was actually borrowed God of sky from pre zoroastrian Assyrrian/Babylonian religion.
http://www.pza.org.sg/History/History%20of%20the%20Farohar.htm
And next time you visit an agiary on Mehr Mahino and Mehr roj you are actually following prezoroastrian religion…under the name of Zoroastrianism. There was a pre Zoroastrian religion in Iran called Mithraism which encouraged the worship of iranic divinities like Mithra/Mehr, Anahita, Vehram, Varun etc…
When Zoroastrianism was introduced to MITHRA worshipper, they adopted it but also continued the worship of their Pre Zoroastrian divinities…Slowly these divinities were absorbed into the fold and installed into the religious practice of ZORORASTRIANISM as YAZATAS…
SO today YOU are anyway following a concoction of so many religions…under one name!!Big deal!
You Parsis don’t even know your own history nor your religion, … but that doesnot stop you from issuing senseless fatwas.
From the innumerable posts that one reads on this topic the inevitable conclusion that one can reach is that those who have had the opportunity of exposure to liberal education and who share the company of equally broad minded persons have unequivocally condemned the loutish and boorish behavior. Even those who blindly got carried away by “religion in danger” theory during the elections presently feel badly let down.
On the other hand there exists a few individuals who believe and brag that they have achieved something. This group seems to consist of persons whose academic levels have either been truncated at School level, or those who studied in vernacular medium and then took up technical skills depriving them of opportunity to expand their mental horizons.
The issue does not seem to have genuine bearing on our Religion. All the same the incident has caused adverse publicity to the community. With contraction of Parsi population, most places of worship are deserted and there is hardly any watch on entry of persons.
Nearly one third of the Parsi population is aged over 50. Many “Orthodox” visit places of other Religions.
The sign boards on the Fire temples ‘ ADMISSION FOR PARSIS ONLY’ is thus rendered meaningless and is a waste of Paint. In the next couple of decades our sanctified places of worship are bound to be encroached upon and the blame for the same will be squarely on the present day self styled Saviours.
Yes you can preserve Parsipanu which is an illusory concept. If it implies customs and traditions, probably they will be preserved for a couple of decades more but the expansion in ranks of Zoroastrians elsewhere cannot be stopped by Fatwas or brawls. That is a fact and all sections of Parsis will have to learn to accept this fact howsoever uncomfortable it may be for some.
“Behram Dhabhar 28 February 2010 at 8:48 am #
“Here MMM wanted to give full legitimacy to the Russian to enter any Zoroastrian place of worship.”
Please do tell us which place of worship has faced the sacrilege, so that purificatory ceremony can be carried out as demanded during Arjun Ramphal episode.
Do not forget what happened at a Dadar Fire Temple when a sitting BPP Trustee accompanied a lady who had embraced Judaism.
Do not expect everybody to believe the apprehensions.It is akin to an Old Gujarati fable about a shepherd boy crying Tiger, Tiger for sake of his own fun. From the contents of 73 messages here-above you would have measure the ‘support’ garnered by the saviours.
The main issue is that if the whole initiation of the Russian was fake, then where was the cause for panic and what the Staunch Stalwarts would do if similar incidents take place abroad.
It is time to sit up and ponder who is in majority and who is in minority.
Again no answer from so called knowledgeable on why Sassanids faced rebellions from Armenians.
If this is indeed true, then I can only say that the Chairman of the BPP and his cohorts have absolutely NO RIGHT to have brought such shame, in the first instance to the Zoroastrian community worldwide and in the second, to the Parsis of India, who take pride in referring to themselves as amongst the most law abiding citizens of this great country which has sheltered us.
They can and should be booked under the law.
Mr.Saf,
Christianity was influenced by Judaism , but that does not mean Christians are multi-religion worshippers.
I am against the ” dhong ” of having a Navjote performed and then going around saying ” I am half-Zoroastrian and half-Hindu or half-Zoroastrian and half-Christian or whichever half religion the non-Zoroastrian spouse practises.
The aspect of this above practice I most resent , is their relentless attacks on other Zoroastrians who are not part of this multi-religion practice and are just trying to worship in peace.
Despite the possibility that Zarathushtra MAY have adopted some pre-existing symbols or practices , he did not preach to his disciples to follow Zoroastrianism AND any other religion of their choice at the same time !
From the innumerable posts that one reads on this topic the inevitable conclusion that one can reach is that those who have had the opportunity of exposure to liberal education and who share the company of equally broad minded persons have unequivocally condemned the loutish and boorish behavior. Even those who blindly got carried away by “religion in danger” theory during the elections presently feel badly let down.
On the other hand there exists a few individuals who believe and brag that they have achieved something. This group seems to consist of persons whose academic levels have either been truncated at School level, or those who studied in vernacular medium and then took up technical skills depriving them of opportunity to expand their mental horizons.
The issue does not seem to have genuine bearing on our Religion. All the same the incident has caused adverse publicity to the community. With contraction of Parsi population, most places of worship are deserted and there is hardly any watch on entry of persons.
Nearly one third of the Parsi population is aged over 50. Many “Orthodox” visit places of other Religions.
The sign boards on the Fire temples ‘ ADMISSION FOR PARSIS ONLY’ is thus rendered meaningless and is a waste of Paint. In the next couple of decades our sanctified places of worship are bound to be encroached upon and the blame for the same will be squarely on the present day self styled Saviours.
Yes you can preserve Parsipanu which is an illusory concept. If it implies customs and traditions, probably they will be preserved for a couple of decades more but the expansion in ranks of Zoroastrians elsewhere cannot be stopped by Fatwas or brawls. That is a fact and all sections of Parsis will have to learn to accept this fact howsoever uncomfortable it may be for some.
CONVERSATION IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO TRUE PARSIS
1st of all, I wish I could be there to help the bpp members to bash those sick fools.
I also CONGRATULATE the true parsis on making this symbolic move..
I am proud of the fact that we still keep our promise what we had made to the then king J.D Rana, of no conversation of any other individual into our religion, because of these promises we are here, how on earth can we forget that..
Its this simple, these deformist & convertist are selfish human beings, they are jealous because they or their loved onces have lost their rights over parsi-pannu, so if they claim that they also love the religion and have a right over it then why on earth did they have to marry outside the community or why on earth did they allow their children to marry outside the community??? Did they not remember the religion then??
Its simple logic, you can’t run away from your dumb breed of karma’s, you got to face the music, But these people, they don’t even have courage to accept the punishment, they retaliate using pathetic excuses and try to bend the religion for their personal ugly greed.
Its not that being against anyone, but its that being for my religion..
Rest god bless all..
“Behram Dhabhar 28 February 2010 at 8:48 am #
“Here MMM wanted to give full legitimacy to the Russian to enter any Zoroastrian place of worship.”
Please do tell us which place of worship has faced the sacrilege, so that purificatory ceremony can be carried out as demanded during Arjun Ramphal episode.
Do not forget what happened at a Dadar Fire Temple when a sitting BPP Trustee accompanied a lady who had embraced Judaism.
Do not expect everybody to believe the apprehensions.It is akin to an Old Gujarati fable about a shepherd boy crying Tiger, Tiger for sake of his own fun. From the contents of 73 messages here-above you would have measure the ‘support’ garnered by the saviours.
The main issue is that if the whole initiation of the Russian was fake, then where was the cause for panic and what the Staunch Stalwarts would do if similar incidents take place abroad.
It is time to sit up and ponder who is in majority and who is in minority.
Mr.Saf,
Christianity was influenced by Judaism , but that does not mean Christians are multi-religion worshippers.
I am against the ” dhong ” of having a Navjote performed and then going around saying ” I am half-Zoroastrian and half-Hindu or half-Zoroastrian and half-Christian or whichever half religion the non-Zoroastrian spouse practises.
The aspect of this above practice I most resent , is their relentless attacks on other Zoroastrians who are not part of this multi-religion practice and are just trying to worship in peace.
Despite the possibility that Zarathushtra MAY have adopted some pre-existing symbols or practices , he did not preach to his disciples to follow Zoroastrianism AND any other religion of their choice at the same time !
CONVERSATION IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO TRUE PARSIS
1st of all, I wish I could be there to help the bpp members to bash those sick fools.
I also CONGRATULATE the true parsis on making this symbolic move..
I am proud of the fact that we still keep our promise what we had made to the then king J.D Rana, of no conversation of any other individual into our religion, because of these promises we are here, how on earth can we forget that..
Its this simple, these deformist & convertist are selfish human beings, they are jealous because they or their loved onces have lost their rights over parsi-pannu, so if they claim that they also love the religion and have a right over it then why on earth did they have to marry outside the community or why on earth did they allow their children to marry outside the community??? Did they not remember the religion then??
Its simple logic, you can’t run away from your dumb breed of karma’s, you got to face the music, But these people, they don’t even have courage to accept the punishment, they retaliate using pathetic excuses and try to bend the religion for their personal ugly greed.
Its not that being against anyone, but its that being for my religion..
Rest god bless all..
Resham Singh, a guard at the institute, said, “Around 45 people came in eight cars at 11.30 am and demanded access to the premises. When I did not open the gate, they forced their way through a smaller entrance. Later, they threw around chairs, destroyed furniture and assaulted staff members.” : THIS IS VANDALISM :
It’s just a matter of time before it will repeat at some other place, where our knight will not be able to reach in time to save us from the “terrorists”. what say?
Dear friends,
This report of the guard is WRONG. Let me elaborate. I have travelled frequently to Saronda / Nargol where on the Talasari-Sanjan link road which is in village Gharigam, this Z College is located. It is just 1 km before the Parsi Stumbh/WZO Sanatorium. What we normally understand by the word college is an Institute where there are classrooms, libraries, furniture, teaching staff, students etc. You maybe surprised to note that in this one storey building there is nothing of this sort.
The compound gate which is rusted has 2 ft tall grass weeds growing all over indicating that no one has visited this place since ages. There is no watchman, no staff, no students and barely any furniture. The only “students” who visit the college are mice, snakes, lizards stray dogs/cats. As stated in the reports trickling in this ceremony was carried out in a temporary tin shed located outside the college but within the small compound. The shed consisted of the marble pedestal for the Russian priest and one for the fire and one plastic chair. There was no other “furniture” inside the shed to be vandalized. What the Parsis actually did was to dismantle the sand demarcation lines (pavi) that were drawn inside the tin shed. That is what was termed as vandalism. I leave it to your goodselves to realize how this report has been blown up by the press.
Regards
Jamshed H. Bastani
Tamboli,
1) Any historical evidence of Jadi Rana?
2)Are we governed by the current laws of the land and
the Constitution or by promises made to Jadi Rana?
3) Attempts to conversion were to Zoroastrianism not to
Parseeism. K Unwalla’s statement ‘It’s just a matter of time before it will repeat at some other place, where our knight will not be able to reach in time to save us from the “terrorists”. what say?’ is absolutely on the dot.
@Saf baby,
As usual lot of hot air and NO ANSWERS. Remember the first time I pulled your pants down on that Gatha question you cud not answer ? My second question was find me an Avesta word “To convert” and describe the Conversion ceremony. Well, the second time you have proved yourself as an undisputed dunce by giving NO ANSWER and filling your posts with nonsense and ridicule. This time I am forced to pull down your underwear.
Now that you are naked, could you bend a little so that I can spank your bonkys with my third question. Which religion did our prophet convert from ? If you say he “converted” surely there has to be a revealed religion that pre dated zoroastrianism. Which was it ?
@Behram / Rohinton / Rustom – No point wasting your precious time and effort on these idiots. Refer to my earlier definition of an “idiot”. I will handle these idiotic deformists my way. Let other bloggers know what substance they are made up of.
Rohinton is right about sham Navjotes.But we are discussing the acceptance of Zoroastrianism by persons elsewhere in the world. Can we prevent such ‘conversions’?
As for assurances to King Jadi Rana,the same also included:
a) Not performingmarriage ceremony before
sunset;
b) Parsee females to wear attire similar to that
of locals.
Logically does it not follow that?:
a) all Parsee marriages which took place in the morning have ‘violated’ that promise and so are ‘illegal’?
b) All Parsee women NOT wearing saree (which is the mode of dress of local female population of Sanjan) should be forbidden from entering Fire Temples?.
WHAT AN IDEA , SIR JI?
Resham Singh, a guard at the institute, said, “Around 45 people came in eight cars at 11.30 am and demanded access to the premises. When I did not open the gate, they forced their way through a smaller entrance. Later, they threw around chairs, destroyed furniture and assaulted staff members.” : THIS IS VANDALISM :
It’s just a matter of time before it will repeat at some other place, where our knight will not be able to reach in time to save us from the “terrorists”. what say?
Many bloggers have raised questions as to why these orthodox Parsis do not protest or stop conversions going on in other countries outside India.
The answer is simple. No Pav Mahel exists outside India (including Iran) and it is currently located only on the west coast of India. Which is why one can notice that in North, South and East India where a small Parsi population does thrive, the religion is not preserved in its prisitine form. Secondly the number of these “converts” is much more than the pure Parsi / Irani Zoroastrian community that exists in India and other countries. Some of these converts have recently realized that they have been duped and have started taking action on those who have spread this wrong message. Which is why fakes like Ali Jafarey are now at the receiving end.
The Traditional Zoroastrian website http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com is a storehouse of ammunition that blasts open the fallacies and arguments of the liberals and wannabies. This is the only reason why most liberals try hard to discredit it, because it makes their task simpler. This website has contributors from all over the world who have not only studied and analyzed our scriptures in detail but also practice the religion of their forefathers faithfully and accurately. In that respect the authenticity of this website is beyond doubt. The list of all contributors / scholars is given at the start and I urge all bloggers irrespective of your past views or associations to atleast visit the website and find out for yourself where the truth lies. Do not rely on search engines like Google, Wikipedia, Yahoo, etc. for religious information.
The human mind is man’s worst enemy. It is filled with Druj. It fails in the nick of time. This “mind” cannot be relied upon to analyze and dissect the truths of nature. Therefore the only way to learn Zoroastrianism is to practice it. I have said this before on other forums and at the cost of repeating myself like a broken record am doing it once again. Just as one cannot learn swimming by reading a book or attending lectures on swimming, one has to actually enter the water and learn to float. Religion is a similar excercise. It cannot be mastered by ONLY reading books, websites or lectures. The Zarathushtri Deen is not a book. It is a way of life. One has to breathe and live zoroastrianism in order to be a called a Zarathushtri. One has to practice all its farmans, truthfully, conciously and without as much making a show of it. This is only possible if you are born a Mazdaynie, i.e. into the religion. All the jigsaw puzzles fall into place automatically and the truth is then visible. Arguing on these blogs does no one any good and is simply a waste of time.
All religions preach good thoughts, words, deeds. Zoroastrianism does not have any monopoly, therefore the need for conversion does not arise. All religions are the best path for the individual where he/she is born. Just as a Doctor prescribes medicine depending on the patient’s constitution and the patient is not expected to analyze the chemicals present in the medicine for his cure, similarly all religions are suited to the person’s spiritual constitution and is the best for his individual spiritual progress and salvation. Man has no authority or expertise whatsoever to choose the spiritual path for his progress as the spirtual knowledge is lacking.
We hope this puts to rest the debate on Conversion
Dear friends,
This report of the guard is WRONG. Let me elaborate. I have travelled frequently to Saronda / Nargol where on the Talasari-Sanjan link road which is in village Gharigam, this Z College is located. It is just 1 km before the Parsi Stumbh/WZO Sanatorium. What we normally understand by the word college is an Institute where there are classrooms, libraries, furniture, teaching staff, students etc. You maybe surprised to note that in this one storey building there is nothing of this sort.
The compound gate which is rusted has 2 ft tall grass weeds growing all over indicating that no one has visited this place since ages. There is no watchman, no staff, no students and barely any furniture. The only “students” who visit the college are mice, snakes, lizards stray dogs/cats. As stated in the reports trickling in this ceremony was carried out in a temporary tin shed located outside the college but within the small compound. The shed consisted of the marble pedestal for the Russian priest and one for the fire and one plastic chair. There was no other “furniture” inside the shed to be vandalized. What the Parsis actually did was to dismantle the sand demarcation lines (pavi) that were drawn inside the tin shed. That is what was termed as vandalism. I leave it to your goodselves to realize how this report has been blown up by the press.
Regards
Jamshed H. Bastani
Behram,
my question was- if CONVERSION IS NOT ALLOWED IN ZOROASTRIANISM, WHY DID ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS REBELLED AGAINST SASSANID ZOROASTRIAN REGIME???
The answer is, Because Zoroastrian theocracy under the Sassanians used to forcibly CONVERT Armenian christians to Zoroastrianism.
Plz note –
*All SASSANIAN kings starting with Ardashir belonged to hereditary priestly family from Istaxr, so they were fully aware of religious scriptures.
* Most of the religious scriptures like Avesta in Avesthan was compiled during 400 years of Sassanian regime…under two High priest of the time Dastur Karter/Kartir and Dastur Tansar/Tansor.
* Both these Hight Priest were known to have extreme orthodox views and they both were involved in religious persecution of nonZoroastrians particularly Buddhists and Christians. But there is no record to suggest they had shown any objection to regime’s policy of forced conversions to Zoroastrianism.
* King Shapor II the ninth King, who is remembered as relentlessly trying to convert Christian Armenians to Zoroastrianism, had Dastur Aderbad Marespand as a Chief priest at his court. Again, there is no record to show that Dasturji objected Shapor’s campaigns to Armenia taken to convert Christians to Zoroastrianism.
* The Denkard text compiled during Sassanid period sanctions even the use of force for the conversion.
(http://www.avesta.org/dhalla/history6.htm)
* Though Yazdgerd I practiced religious tolerance, but Yazdegird III began summoning Armenian nobles to Ctesiphon and converted them to Zoroastrianism. This outraged the Armenian population, and under the leadership of Vartan Mamikonian an army of 66,000 Armenians rebelled against the Sassanid empire. Yazdegerd quickly subdued the rebellion at the Battle of Avarayr.
Anyway, the gist is, conversion to Zoroastrianism is fully supported by religious and historical records.
There is no record to show that anyone who had converted to Zoroastrianism faced any persecution under law in Persia.
Early Zoroastrianism spread through convincing words of mouth and not through force, but latter on forced was applied to impose Zoroastrianism
If you are unaware of this, its your incompetence in History and scriptures not mine.
P.S… Btw, Behram, since according to you if the word ‘conversion’ doesnot appear in Avesthan vocabulary, therefore conversion is illegal, What do you have to say regarding absence of Divorce laws?
Tamboli,
1) Any historical evidence of Jadi Rana?
2)Are we governed by the current laws of the land and
the Constitution or by promises made to Jadi Rana?
3) Attempts to conversion were to Zoroastrianism not to
Parseeism. K Unwalla’s statement ‘It’s just a matter of time before it will repeat at some other place, where our knight will not be able to reach in time to save us from the “terrorists”. what say?’ is absolutely on the dot.
@Saf baby,
As usual lot of hot air and NO ANSWERS. Remember the first time I pulled your pants down on that Gatha question you cud not answer ? My second question was find me an Avesta word “To convert” and describe the Conversion ceremony. Well, the second time you have proved yourself as an undisputed dunce by giving NO ANSWER and filling your posts with nonsense and ridicule. This time I am forced to pull down your underwear.
Now that you are naked, could you bend a little so that I can spank your bonkys with my third question. Which religion did our prophet convert from ? If you say he “converted” surely there has to be a revealed religion that pre dated zoroastrianism. Which was it ?
@Behram / Rohinton / Rustom – No point wasting your precious time and effort on these idiots. Refer to my earlier definition of an “idiot”. I will handle these idiotic deformists my way. Let other bloggers know what substance they are made up of.
Rohinton is right about sham Navjotes.But we are discussing the acceptance of Zoroastrianism by persons elsewhere in the world. Can we prevent such ‘conversions’?
As for assurances to King Jadi Rana,the same also included:
a) Not performingmarriage ceremony before
sunset;
b) Parsee females to wear attire similar to that
of locals.
Logically does it not follow that?:
a) all Parsee marriages which took place in the morning have ‘violated’ that promise and so are ‘illegal’?
b) All Parsee women NOT wearing saree (which is the mode of dress of local female population of Sanjan) should be forbidden from entering Fire Temples?.
WHAT AN IDEA , SIR JI?
saf 6 February 2010 at 5:46 pm #
“Behram, It happens if you keep number of ids…However all three – Pervez Avari, Puff and You, have the same style of writing and hold identical views… It was not too difficult for us to guess that all three are the same person. However ironically you claimed to catch me with my pants down… and see you brought your own pants down yourself !! Kudos!!”
saf 28 February 2010 at 4:11 pm
“THEREFORE ALL THOSE PARSI PARASITE MOBEDS LIKE BEHRAM AKA CHICKEN PUFF, FROM DADAR PARSEE COLONY WHO COME HERE TO YAP THAT CONVERSION TO ZOROASTRIANISM IS NOT ALLOWED…ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND MISLEADING THE COMMUNITY.
SO DON’T YOU DARE SAY CONVERSION TO Z’ISM IS UNKNOWN…
DON’T YOU DARE TRY TO TWIST THE RELIGION JUST TO HOLD ON TO FOKAT NI CHARITIES AND CHARITY BLOCKS IN PARSEE COLONIES.
YOU ARE A PARSI PARASITE AND YOUR RELIGION IS PARSISM.
AND Mr. FOOT IN THE MOUTH CHICKEN PUFF BEHRAM, GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT, BEFORE I HAMMER YOU AGAIN HERE”
Those who accuse others wrongly are most likely committing these tricks themselves. Do we have to employ Sherlock Holmes to determine that Saf and Farzana Cooper are one and the same person with multiple Ids. I had time on my hands being a holiday and observed closely all the old mails the timing and style of writing. Not only that the associated anger and insulting /threatening tone involved in pushing one’s agenda across. The cat is out of the bag. Sorry to burst your bubble. I have debated with this lady on UB and didnt think she could be a coward. As stated earlier by me, cowards die many times before their death.
Let me introduce Farzana Cooper to the blogger’s world. By her own admission she belonged to a priestly family where she revolted against her parents on being forced into seclusion during her menstruation period. Thats where the hatred started for the religion and the priests. Farzana is now a die hard reformist…..oops deformist who on account of the hatred developed during childhood wants to get even have her way like a spoilt child and is frantically hunting for avenues to do so. But Farzana is also a hypocrite which many would not know. She does not wear the Sudreh Kusti again by her own admission but does not find anything wrong in performing the Navjote of her son. To get free charity flats, maybe? The fact that all her fallacies and “historical proofs” are being disputed and refuted is not sufficient excuse for her to give up. She will “discredit” authentic sources of religious literature only to have her way It is therefore useless arguing with closed minds whose only intention is to revolt. These are the very people who bring about a downfall of our community. We don’t require Alexander to destroy us now, the enemy is within.
For any further info write to me on behram24@yahoo.com.
Many bloggers have raised questions as to why these orthodox Parsis do not protest or stop conversions going on in other countries outside India.
The answer is simple. No Pav Mahel exists outside India (including Iran) and it is currently located only on the west coast of India. Which is why one can notice that in North, South and East India where a small Parsi population does thrive, the religion is not preserved in its prisitine form. Secondly the number of these “converts” is much more than the pure Parsi / Irani Zoroastrian community that exists in India and other countries. Some of these converts have recently realized that they have been duped and have started taking action on those who have spread this wrong message. Which is why fakes like Ali Jafarey are now at the receiving end.
The Traditional Zoroastrian website http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com is a storehouse of ammunition that blasts open the fallacies and arguments of the liberals and wannabies. This is the only reason why most liberals try hard to discredit it, because it makes their task simpler. This website has contributors from all over the world who have not only studied and analyzed our scriptures in detail but also practice the religion of their forefathers faithfully and accurately. In that respect the authenticity of this website is beyond doubt. The list of all contributors / scholars is given at the start and I urge all bloggers irrespective of your past views or associations to atleast visit the website and find out for yourself where the truth lies. Do not rely on search engines like Google, Wikipedia, Yahoo, etc. for religious information.
The human mind is man’s worst enemy. It is filled with Druj. It fails in the nick of time. This “mind” cannot be relied upon to analyze and dissect the truths of nature. Therefore the only way to learn Zoroastrianism is to practice it. I have said this before on other forums and at the cost of repeating myself like a broken record am doing it once again. Just as one cannot learn swimming by reading a book or attending lectures on swimming, one has to actually enter the water and learn to float. Religion is a similar excercise. It cannot be mastered by ONLY reading books, websites or lectures. The Zarathushtri Deen is not a book. It is a way of life. One has to breathe and live zoroastrianism in order to be a called a Zarathushtri. One has to practice all its farmans, truthfully, conciously and without as much making a show of it. This is only possible if you are born a Mazdaynie, i.e. into the religion. All the jigsaw puzzles fall into place automatically and the truth is then visible. Arguing on these blogs does no one any good and is simply a waste of time.
All religions preach good thoughts, words, deeds. Zoroastrianism does not have any monopoly, therefore the need for conversion does not arise. All religions are the best path for the individual where he/she is born. Just as a Doctor prescribes medicine depending on the patient’s constitution and the patient is not expected to analyze the chemicals present in the medicine for his cure, similarly all religions are suited to the person’s spiritual constitution and is the best for his individual spiritual progress and salvation. Man has no authority or expertise whatsoever to choose the spiritual path for his progress as the spirtual knowledge is lacking.
We hope this puts to rest the debate on Conversion
Et just for record, personally im not in favor of conversion nor am i against it. It makes no difference to me if someone wishes to follow Zoroastrianism or wishes to dump it for good. I have nothing to gain nor i have anything to loose out of joining the chorus with reformists or orthodox.
However im totally against anyone imposing their beliefs on others and deliberately manipulating facts for their own ulterior motives.
Just as I strongly oppose forked tongue dhongee characters like Behram, Rustom, their multiple fake IDs and their side kicks who tailor religion to suit their narrow self interests,in the same breathe i also condemn psychedelic cults that engages in narcotic trades in garb of reviving Zoroastrianism as Voice of Reason pointed it out.
Behram,
my question was- if CONVERSION IS NOT ALLOWED IN ZOROASTRIANISM, WHY DID ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS REBELLED AGAINST SASSANID ZOROASTRIAN REGIME???
The answer is, Because Zoroastrian theocracy under the Sassanians used to forcibly CONVERT Armenian christians to Zoroastrianism.
Plz note –
*All SASSANIAN kings starting with Ardashir belonged to hereditary priestly family from Istaxr, so they were fully aware of religious scriptures.
* Most of the religious scriptures like Avesta in Avesthan was compiled during 400 years of Sassanian regime…under two High priest of the time Dastur Karter/Kartir and Dastur Tansar/Tansor.
* Both these Hight Priest were known to have extreme orthodox views and they both were involved in religious persecution of nonZoroastrians particularly Buddhists and Christians. But there is no record to suggest they had shown any objection to regime’s policy of forced conversions to Zoroastrianism.
* King Shapor II the ninth King, who is remembered as relentlessly trying to convert Christian Armenians to Zoroastrianism, had Dastur Aderbad Marespand as a Chief priest at his court. Again, there is no record to show that Dasturji objected Shapor’s campaigns to Armenia taken to convert Christians to Zoroastrianism.
* The Denkard text compiled during Sassanid period sanctions even the use of force for the conversion.
(http://www.avesta.org/dhalla/history6.htm)
* Though Yazdgerd I practiced religious tolerance, but Yazdegird III began summoning Armenian nobles to Ctesiphon and converted them to Zoroastrianism. This outraged the Armenian population, and under the leadership of Vartan Mamikonian an army of 66,000 Armenians rebelled against the Sassanid empire. Yazdegerd quickly subdued the rebellion at the Battle of Avarayr.
Anyway, the gist is, conversion to Zoroastrianism is fully supported by religious and historical records.
There is no record to show that anyone who had converted to Zoroastrianism faced any persecution under law in Persia.
Early Zoroastrianism spread through convincing words of mouth and not through force, but latter on forced was applied to impose Zoroastrianism
If you are unaware of this, its your incompetence in History and scriptures not mine.
P.S… Btw, Behram, since according to you if the word ‘conversion’ doesnot appear in Avesthan vocabulary, therefore conversion is illegal, What do you have to say regarding absence of Divorce laws?
saf 6 February 2010 at 5:46 pm #
“Behram, It happens if you keep number of ids…However all three – Pervez Avari, Puff and You, have the same style of writing and hold identical views… It was not too difficult for us to guess that all three are the same person. However ironically you claimed to catch me with my pants down… and see you brought your own pants down yourself !! Kudos!!”
saf 28 February 2010 at 4:11 pm
“THEREFORE ALL THOSE PARSI PARASITE MOBEDS LIKE BEHRAM AKA CHICKEN PUFF, FROM DADAR PARSEE COLONY WHO COME HERE TO YAP THAT CONVERSION TO ZOROASTRIANISM IS NOT ALLOWED…ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND MISLEADING THE COMMUNITY.
SO DON’T YOU DARE SAY CONVERSION TO Z’ISM IS UNKNOWN…
DON’T YOU DARE TRY TO TWIST THE RELIGION JUST TO HOLD ON TO FOKAT NI CHARITIES AND CHARITY BLOCKS IN PARSEE COLONIES.
YOU ARE A PARSI PARASITE AND YOUR RELIGION IS PARSISM.
AND Mr. FOOT IN THE MOUTH CHICKEN PUFF BEHRAM, GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT, BEFORE I HAMMER YOU AGAIN HERE”
Those who accuse others wrongly are most likely committing these tricks themselves. Do we have to employ Sherlock Holmes to determine that Saf and Farzana Cooper are one and the same person with multiple Ids. I had time on my hands being a holiday and observed closely all the old mails the timing and style of writing. Not only that the associated anger and insulting /threatening tone involved in pushing one’s agenda across. The cat is out of the bag. Sorry to burst your bubble. I have debated with this lady on UB and didnt think she could be a coward. As stated earlier by me, cowards die many times before their death.
Let me introduce Farzana Cooper to the blogger’s world. By her own admission she belonged to a priestly family where she revolted against her parents on being forced into seclusion during her menstruation period. Thats where the hatred started for the religion and the priests. Farzana is now a die hard reformist…..oops deformist who on account of the hatred developed during childhood wants to get even have her way like a spoilt child and is frantically hunting for avenues to do so. But Farzana is also a hypocrite which many would not know. She does not wear the Sudreh Kusti again by her own admission but does not find anything wrong in performing the Navjote of her son. To get free charity flats, maybe? The fact that all her fallacies and “historical proofs” are being disputed and refuted is not sufficient excuse for her to give up. She will “discredit” authentic sources of religious literature only to have her way It is therefore useless arguing with closed minds whose only intention is to revolt. These are the very people who bring about a downfall of our community. We don’t require Alexander to destroy us now, the enemy is within.
For any further info write to me on behram24@yahoo.com.
Et just for record, personally im not in favor of conversion nor am i against it. It makes no difference to me if someone wishes to follow Zoroastrianism or wishes to dump it for good. I have nothing to gain nor i have anything to loose out of joining the chorus with reformists or orthodox.
However im totally against anyone imposing their beliefs on others and deliberately manipulating facts for their own ulterior motives.
Just as I strongly oppose forked tongue dhongee characters like Behram, Rustom, their multiple fake IDs and their side kicks who tailor religion to suit their narrow self interests,in the same breathe i also condemn psychedelic cults that engages in narcotic trades in garb of reviving Zoroastrianism as Voice of Reason pointed it out.
‘I am looking out for religious proof and not historical evidence as history can twisted to suit the historian’
I too am looking for scripture based evidence that there ought to be hierarchy in the priestly order and the basis of such a classification.
I am not good at Parsi history but have learnt that there used to be riots between Shenshahi Parsis and Kadmis over a century back. Are we attempting to revisit this history?
Can we not be accommodative of each other more so when we are on the brink of extinction?
Why not put a lid on such controversies by allotting some Fire Temples now wearing a desolate look to so called Reformists/liberals to look after up keep of such places of Worship and conduct ceremonies in which the staunch/stalwarts/ saviours and Orthodox need not join.
Subsequent generations are going to judge the present generations as myopic and selfish.
‘I am looking out for religious proof and not historical evidence as history can twisted to suit the historian’
I too am looking for scripture based evidence that there ought to be hierarchy in the priestly order and the basis of such a classification.
I am not good at Parsi history but have learnt that there used to be riots between Shenshahi Parsis and Kadmis over a century back. Are we attempting to revisit this history?
Can we not be accommodative of each other more so when we are on the brink of extinction?
Why not put a lid on such controversies by allotting some Fire Temples now wearing a desolate look to so called Reformists/liberals to look after up keep of such places of Worship and conduct ceremonies in which the staunch/stalwarts/ saviours and Orthodox need not join.
Subsequent generations are going to judge the present generations as myopic and selfish.
@ Farzana
about you questioniing the rebel of armenia against Zoroastrianism…
It was mainly due to christian forces that converted Zoroastrains into christianity. George the illuminator converted tridates 3 and thus the termoil began…
In anycase it does not start with that..the problem of breaking up the opponent via segmentations was adapted and thus we had such…
Ironically not even one source suggestes that the Zoroastrians converted any other..ofcourse to suit an agenda the bringing back of zoroastrians who were ebelling against their own( something done on the lines of today..without even scientific consideration nor environment nor results of demograhpical changes) can be attributed to conversions..
Infact the fact again of romans adapting to mitraism( taken from many zoroastrian kings adapting this yazata as their symbol due to what she denotes and representations in war or battle) shows that if the Zoroastrians wanted to convert others, it would be in terms of zoroastrianism..
@ Nairikia…on your concept that totally nullfifying a religion does not amount to desicration, please refer to laws of many countries and especially India….
Yes ofcourse to some disregarding the laws that protects an identity of a small community would also not amount to vandalism but such generally dont have the guts to do the same with other communities..be it big or small….
Please do give ure statement a chance to hold water and make a Bishop by yourself and challenge the christian/vaticans procedure or rules on the same lines, disregard Dalai Lama’s n the tibetans procedure to appoint the next lama, go against rules set by their ancestors and then when challenged by such and looked down by the world excuse yourself that it is your right to do as you please…and disregardin somebod’s faiths regulations does no amount to vandalism….
Conscience takes a back seat when one resides in accommodation provided by the erstwhile employer.
@ Farzana
about you questioniing the rebel of armenia against Zoroastrianism…
It was mainly due to christian forces that converted Zoroastrains into christianity. George the illuminator converted tridates 3 and thus the termoil began…
In anycase it does not start with that..the problem of breaking up the opponent via segmentations was adapted and thus we had such…
Ironically not even one source suggestes that the Zoroastrians converted any other..ofcourse to suit an agenda the bringing back of zoroastrians who were ebelling against their own( something done on the lines of today..without even scientific consideration nor environment nor results of demograhpical changes) can be attributed to conversions..
Infact the fact again of romans adapting to mitraism( taken from many zoroastrian kings adapting this yazata as their symbol due to what she denotes and representations in war or battle) shows that if the Zoroastrians wanted to convert others, it would be in terms of zoroastrianism..
@ Nairikia…on your concept that totally nullfifying a religion does not amount to desicration, please refer to laws of many countries and especially India….
Yes ofcourse to some disregarding the laws that protects an identity of a small community would also not amount to vandalism but such generally dont have the guts to do the same with other communities..be it big or small….
Please do give ure statement a chance to hold water and make a Bishop by yourself and challenge the christian/vaticans procedure or rules on the same lines, disregard Dalai Lama’s n the tibetans procedure to appoint the next lama, go against rules set by their ancestors and then when challenged by such and looked down by the world excuse yourself that it is your right to do as you please…and disregardin somebod’s faiths regulations does no amount to vandalism….
Conscience takes a back seat when one resides in accommodation provided by the erstwhile employer.
On the topic about “Parsi = Zoroastrian”, what makes me think that there is no equivalence between the terms is that, in this case, there would be no need to distinguish Iranis from Parsis. One single term would be enough, what would make “Parsi Irani Zoroastrian” (in WAPIZ for instance) sounds like “Jewish Jewish Jew”. These 3 words might have only slight differences in meaning, but this implies that there is no perfect overlapping between them. So a Parsi is a Zoroastrian but not an Irani, an Irani is not a Parsi (if not, why using Irani?) but a Zoroastrian.
Even the WAPIZ (which is not the most progressive Z association) keeps on distinguishing between Parsis and Iranis on its website http://www.wapiz.com/whoare.htm : “Parsis and Iranis”, “The Parsis and Iranis who follow the ancient Zarthoshti religion”, “the Parsi or Irani identity”, “the community’s strength worldwide, is estimated to be 1,25,000 of whom 69,601 Parsis and Iranis, live in India”.
It is not possible to claim that Parsi = Zoroastrian, if the separate group of Iranis exists.
So religion on one hand, and ethnicity on the other hand are two separated things. These aspects have mutual relations, that’s for sure, but claiming that they are one and the same is an intellectual hijack.
On the topic about “Parsi = Zoroastrian”, what makes me think that there is no equivalence between the terms is that, in this case, there would be no need to distinguish Iranis from Parsis. One single term would be enough, what would make “Parsi Irani Zoroastrian” (in WAPIZ for instance) sounds like “Jewish Jewish Jew”. These 3 words might have only slight differences in meaning, but this implies that there is no perfect overlapping between them. So a Parsi is a Zoroastrian but not an Irani, an Irani is not a Parsi (if not, why using Irani?) but a Zoroastrian.
Even the WAPIZ (which is not the most progressive Z association) keeps on distinguishing between Parsis and Iranis on its website http://www.wapiz.com/whoare.htm : “Parsis and Iranis”, “The Parsis and Iranis who follow the ancient Zarthoshti religion”, “the Parsi or Irani identity”, “the community’s strength worldwide, is estimated to be 1,25,000 of whom 69,601 Parsis and Iranis, live in India”.
It is not possible to claim that Parsi = Zoroastrian, if the separate group of Iranis exists.
So religion on one hand, and ethnicity on the other hand are two separated things. These aspects have mutual relations, that’s for sure, but claiming that they are one and the same is an intellectual hijack.
A COMMON THREAD RUNS AMONGST THE ‘STAUNCH/ STALWART/SAVIOURS’ IN THAT THEY CALL ALL OPEN MINDED AND THINKING SECTIONS OF PARSEES AS ‘DEFORMISTS’. SO IT CAN BE ASSUMED THAT IN REALITY ONLY ONE PERSON IS POSTING MESSAGES ON BEHALF OF ‘SSS’ BRIGADE AS THE WORD DEFORMIST IS COMMON. THATS LOGIC!
IF SOMEONE AGREES WITH THESE CONFIRMED DHONGIS, THEY WILL CHANT PRAISES FOR SUCH A FOOL HARDY PERSON.
AND NOT REPLYING A BLOGGER LIKE JAMASJI IS NOT THAT HE IS INVINCIBLE IN HIS ARGUMENTS. ITS JUST THAT IT GIVES THE PERSON WHO DIFFERS WITH HIM A SENSE OF APPEARING STUPID IN EYES OF OTHERS ARGUING ON ILLOGICAL STUFF. FURTHER,ONE DOES NOT WANT TO OFFER ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO SUCH A BLOGGER TO ONCE AGAIN PEN HIS OWN NAME ON THE PORTAL.
THE ANALOGY OF DOCTOR PRESCRIBING THE MEDICINE AND THE PATIENT UNQUESTIONINGLY CONSUMING IT IS NOTHING BUT HUMOROUS. DO PATIENTS NOT OPT FOR A SECOND OPINION?
THERE ARE CASES OF MEDICAL NEGLIGENCE IN VARIOUS FORUMS.
SO THE CONCLUSION, JUST AS DOCTORS ARE LIABLE TO COMMIT ERRORS SO DO PRIESTS AND THEIR BLIND CHAMCHAS.
.”The human mind is man’s worst enemy. It is filled with Druj. It fails in the nick of time. This “mind” cannot be relied upon to analyze and dissect the truths of nature” Unquote.
Kya baat hai!
IN OTHER WORDS ONE HAS TO BECOME BRAIN DEAD .And did these pearls of ‘wisdom’ not emanate from the Brain?
“One has to practice all its farmans, truthfully, consciously”
Religion: “It cannot be mastered by ONLY reading books, websites or lectures.”
So the question from where does one source farmans if books and websites are termed unreliable?
And is not storehouse of ammunition The Traditional Zoroastrian website http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com a website?
And who writes on this website? Are they men with minds ‘which cannot be relied upon to analyze and dissect truth’s of nature’ and are full of DRUJ?
Not my words…
Anti Dhongi,
Do not expect any cohesive answer to your pertinent query about scripture based hierarchy amongst priests.
A wiseacre days that Religion can not be learnt through books,lectures or websites. So what about the same guys delivering “Religious Discourses”. Ironically the same ‘bold’ person calls http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com as a store house of __________”
This is an ideal case of an alcoholic extolling virtues of Prohibition.
@Pirojshah: Are you referring to turn coat ‘renegade’ priest in your post of 3rd March?. It appears to be a case of organised
blackmail or shall we say Mafiagiri.
This blog sure id turning out to be a Joker’s Corner.
A COMMON THREAD RUNS AMONGST THE ‘STAUNCH/ STALWART/SAVIOURS’ IN THAT THEY CALL ALL OPEN MINDED AND THINKING SECTIONS OF PARSEES AS ‘DEFORMISTS’. SO IT CAN BE ASSUMED THAT IN REALITY ONLY ONE PERSON IS POSTING MESSAGES ON BEHALF OF ‘SSS’ BRIGADE AS THE WORD DEFORMIST IS COMMON. THATS LOGIC!
IF SOMEONE AGREES WITH THESE CONFIRMED DHONGIS, THEY WILL CHANT PRAISES FOR SUCH A FOOL HARDY PERSON.
AND NOT REPLYING A BLOGGER LIKE JAMASJI IS NOT THAT HE IS INVINCIBLE IN HIS ARGUMENTS. ITS JUST THAT IT GIVES THE PERSON WHO DIFFERS WITH HIM A SENSE OF APPEARING STUPID IN EYES OF OTHERS ARGUING ON ILLOGICAL STUFF. FURTHER,ONE DOES NOT WANT TO OFFER ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO SUCH A BLOGGER TO ONCE AGAIN PEN HIS OWN NAME ON THE PORTAL.
THE ANALOGY OF DOCTOR PRESCRIBING THE MEDICINE AND THE PATIENT UNQUESTIONINGLY CONSUMING IT IS NOTHING BUT HUMOROUS. DO PATIENTS NOT OPT FOR A SECOND OPINION?
THERE ARE CASES OF MEDICAL NEGLIGENCE IN VARIOUS FORUMS.
SO THE CONCLUSION, JUST AS DOCTORS ARE LIABLE TO COMMIT ERRORS SO DO PRIESTS AND THEIR BLIND CHAMCHAS.
.“The human mind is man’s worst enemy. It is filled with Druj. It fails in the nick of time. This “mind” cannot be relied upon to analyze and dissect the truths of nature” Unquote.
Kya baat hai!
IN OTHER WORDS ONE HAS TO BECOME BRAIN DEAD .And did these pearls of ‘wisdom’ not emanate from the Brain?
“One has to practice all its farmans, truthfully, consciously”
Religion: “It cannot be mastered by ONLY reading books, websites or lectures.”
So the question from where does one source farmans if books and websites are termed unreliable?
And is not storehouse of ammunition The Traditional Zoroastrian website http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com a website?
And who writes on this website? Are they men with minds ‘which cannot be relied upon to analyze and dissect truth’s of nature’ and are full of DRUJ?
Not my words…
Dear Remi,
You mention in your earlier post that you are interested in the ” Indo-Iranian World “.
I very much appreciate your quest to explore this ‘ world “, but am sorry to see you get stuck at the ONE point you seem to be stuck at !
It would be interesting to know something about you , too . I
would love to know your religion and which country you live in ( if you have no objections to my interest in your world ……!!) .
Anti Dhongi,
Do not expect any cohesive answer to your pertinent query about scripture based hierarchy amongst priests.
A wiseacre days that Religion can not be learnt through books,lectures or websites. So what about the same guys delivering “Religious Discourses”. Ironically the same ‘bold’ person calls http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com as a store house of __________”
This is an ideal case of an alcoholic extolling virtues of Prohibition.
@Pirojshah: Are you referring to turn coat ‘renegade’ priest in your post of 3rd March?. It appears to be a case of organised
blackmail or shall we say Mafiagiri.
This blog sure id turning out to be a Joker’s Corner.
Dear Farzana, Voice of Reason and those of you who care deeply, passionately and SELFLESSLY about Zoroastrianism,
I admit that some of the arguments used by the Orthodox are
ludicrous and ridiculous. Whether they act out of concern for the baug-flats/charities or not ; their actions are the result of a desire to ” preserve ” in any way that can.
Please , do not make issues out of the most insignificant of their explanations , or out of their misguided actions ( under what is seen as severe provocation by them) .
This rift will only be exploited by people who do not have the best interest of the religion at heart , but believe that the religion is a means to fulfilling their agendas.
Dear Remi,
You mention in your earlier post that you are interested in the ” Indo-Iranian World “.
I very much appreciate your quest to explore this ‘ world “, but am sorry to see you get stuck at the ONE point you seem to be stuck at !
It would be interesting to know something about you , too . I
would love to know your religion and which country you live in ( if you have no objections to my interest in your world ……!!) .
Dear Farzana, Voice of Reason and those of you who care deeply, passionately and SELFLESSLY about Zoroastrianism,
I admit that some of the arguments used by the Orthodox are
ludicrous and ridiculous. Whether they act out of concern for the baug-flats/charities or not ; their actions are the result of a desire to ” preserve ” in any way that can.
Please , do not make issues out of the most insignificant of their explanations , or out of their misguided actions ( under what is seen as severe provocation by them) .
This rift will only be exploited by people who do not have the best interest of the religion at heart , but believe that the religion is a means to fulfilling their agendas.
I have always wondered the meaning of Parsi Irani Zoroastrians. Aren’t Parsi Zoroastrians as good as Irani Zoroastrians. Some Agiaries also have a board outside the entrance ‘Only for parsees’. Is that correct? If an Iranian brother enters, will he not be allowed? Than why don’t we just write ‘Zorastrians’ and do away with Parsis or Iranis?
I have always wondered the meaning of Parsi Irani Zoroastrians. Aren’t Parsi Zoroastrians as good as Irani Zoroastrians. Some Agiaries also have a board outside the entrance ‘Only for parsees’. Is that correct? If an Iranian brother enters, will he not be allowed? Than why don’t we just write ‘Zorastrians’ and do away with Parsis or Iranis?
About conversion, here is another quote from Frawardin Yasht (chap 24, para 94):
“Hail! Born for us (is) one priest Spitaman Zarathushtra. Zarathushtra, the spreader of Baresman (in the ceremonies) will now worship us with libations. Hereafter, the good Mazda-worshipping Religion will spread over all the seven regions of the earth (i.e. in the entire world).”
The translation was done by Ervad Kavasji Edulji Kanga, who can be not regarded as a dangerous reformist. No substantial differences can be noticed from the translation at http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt13sbe.htm.
And again from Khorshed Neayesh, para 19:
“May there be justice of the good Mazda-worshipping Religion, (its) knowledge, promulgation and fame (or glory) in the seven regions of the earth!” (KE Kanga’s translation)
Well, the religion brought by Zarathushtra is meant to spread over the 7 regions of the Earth… What was understated in the Din-No Kalmo in pazand in KE Kanga’s traduction is here written down without any ambiguity whatsoever on two separate scriptures.
I find it hard to uphold that the Z religion should be restricted to Aryans only, in the light of these words. But I might have missed something, I am no Avesta expert. So please prove me wrong with quotes from the scriptures.
Parsi orthodox priesthood can justify their ban of conversion on an historical (pledge to King Rana) or social (access to community’s flats) basis. I have nothing against that. But I have found in less than one week 3 quotes bursting the religious argument in 3 different parts of the very Holy Scriptures on which this ban is (or should be) based!
So the banning or allowing conversion is something relevant for the Parsi community, not for the Zoroastrian religion.
About conversion, here is another quote from Frawardin Yasht (chap 24, para 94):
“Hail! Born for us (is) one priest Spitaman Zarathushtra. Zarathushtra, the spreader of Baresman (in the ceremonies) will now worship us with libations. Hereafter, the good Mazda-worshipping Religion will spread over all the seven regions of the earth (i.e. in the entire world).”
The translation was done by Ervad Kavasji Edulji Kanga, who can be not regarded as a dangerous reformist. No substantial differences can be noticed from the translation at http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt13sbe.htm.
And again from Khorshed Neayesh, para 19:
“May there be justice of the good Mazda-worshipping Religion, (its) knowledge, promulgation and fame (or glory) in the seven regions of the earth!” (KE Kanga’s translation)
Well, the religion brought by Zarathushtra is meant to spread over the 7 regions of the Earth… What was understated in the Din-No Kalmo in pazand in KE Kanga’s traduction is here written down without any ambiguity whatsoever on two separate scriptures.
I find it hard to uphold that the Z religion should be restricted to Aryans only, in the light of these words. But I might have missed something, I am no Avesta expert. So please prove me wrong with quotes from the scriptures.
Parsi orthodox priesthood can justify their ban of conversion on an historical (pledge to King Rana) or social (access to community’s flats) basis. I have nothing against that. But I have found in less than one week 3 quotes bursting the religious argument in 3 different parts of the very Holy Scriptures on which this ban is (or should be) based!
So the banning or allowing conversion is something relevant for the Parsi community, not for the Zoroastrian religion.
What!!! Running around naked in front of fruit is not a Zoroastrian conversion practice……..I’ve been duped all these years. Thank you for saving our religion BPP!
What!!! Running around naked in front of fruit is not a Zoroastrian conversion practice……..I’ve been duped all these years. Thank you for saving our religion BPP!
Most of you do not realise, how painfully funny your comments towards each other are. While you’re trying your hardest to be smart, serious and convincing; people are making a mockery out of your attitudes towards each other.
As a member of the younger generation, I can’t help but comment on what an unfortunate and awful example some of you are setting for us. A few of you respect boundaries, while the rest stoop down to levels of personal attacks.
The aim of these websites is to promote a ground for healthy discussion and of course people with strong opinions are welcome to share their views. Debating is brilliant too, but personal attacking is crossing the line.
Its with a very heavy heart, that I have to say, that its certain people like you that have made our religion a laughing stock. While every religion has its differences, if we’re not willing to settle ours, we’ll continue to diminish.
We are Zoroastrians and that’s where it stands. We’re all under the same umbrella. We can’t complain about a small population and continue to keep a closed minded attitude. We’d be bloody lucky to get both sides of the coin.
Rohinton,
You are right, I kind of appeared out of the blue, so let me introduce myself. I am Rémi Hugouvieux, I am 27 year old, and I live in France.
I was raised as a Catholic, and to make things clear, i don’t feel the need to convert to the Zoroastrian faith.
I wanted to react on the conversion topic because I find that the ban on conversion is not obvious when you have a look at the scriptures.
Of course, I recognise that I can not pretend being a expert about the Avesta, or havint authoritative opinions.
But I would like to understant why I feel that there is a gap (in my estimation) between the firm reaction of the Parsi clergy and the scriptural evidences.
I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, but I believe that exposing my views and debatting is a good way to learned bloggers to correct me.
Most of you do not realise, how painfully funny your comments towards each other are. While you’re trying your hardest to be smart, serious and convincing; people are making a mockery out of your attitudes towards each other.
As a member of the younger generation, I can’t help but comment on what an unfortunate and awful example some of you are setting for us. A few of you respect boundaries, while the rest stoop down to levels of personal attacks.
The aim of these websites is to promote a ground for healthy discussion and of course people with strong opinions are welcome to share their views. Debating is brilliant too, but personal attacking is crossing the line.
Its with a very heavy heart, that I have to say, that its certain people like you that have made our religion a laughing stock. While every religion has its differences, if we’re not willing to settle ours, we’ll continue to diminish.
We are Zoroastrians and that’s where it stands. We’re all under the same umbrella. We can’t complain about a small population and continue to keep a closed minded attitude. We’d be bloody lucky to get both sides of the coin.
Remi,
You have chosen to leave my very simple questions to you ,
unanswered !
I would be curious too, to know if you have just ” an interest in the Indo-Iranian world ” or a VESTED interest in just ONE aspect of the Indo-Iranian world ??
Rohinton: Basically I am a deeply religious person but at the same time dislike the fanatic fatwa masters.
I agree that rift as it is created is not desirable but is not our duty to condemn those hypocrites who practice double standards who alone are responsible for the rift
Frankly, I am not in favour of conversions but certain exceptions made by High Priests themselves have set a precedent not only in the last century but earlier as well. While the community is shrinking numerically, it is all the more necessary to take all the shades of opinions into confidence. Most Fire Temples have barely one dozen or so devotees every day. As suggested by N. T. Fekamfek and like other rational individuals I too feel that certain fire temples not frequented by many can be allotted to local Parsis to perform first 3 days ceremonies for those Parsi Zoroastrian souls who did not want their mortal remains to rot for months. The bogus Orthodox claiming to be staunch even have sadistic streak to deny sacraments for deceased and that’s what hurts.It is this segment that is responsible for the rift. It is for this reason that I would like to appreciate rather radical views of persons like Piloo , Farzana, Anti Dhongeedox, Rational But Religious and Rustomji instead of double speaks from Dadar and their coterie of blind trumpet blowers It is imperative that these fake Orthodox realize that by calling others names like Deformist is not going to silence the radicals.
Piloo,
With regard to your remark that this blog sure is turning out to be a Joker’s Corner- my question to you and others is what can one expect if the community has too many SARDARS who want to propagate their own concocted version of our Religion. They are ‘apt’ at contradicting the contents of the first para of their OWN MESSAGE & ‘INTERPRETATION’ of our Religion in the second para of their OWN same blog.
They seem to assume that rest of the community members are purblind.
And these geniuses are now devoting their precious time in analyzing the language, the timing etc. of posts of others who have exposed them with the hollowness of their concocted ‘divine’ interpretations.
Moreover, to prove that they are busybodies, they even undertake a ‘sacrifice’ of their Holiday time and on week days blog their ‘contributions’ burning midnight oil. How much more ‘sacrifices’ should we expect from these SARDARS. So lets express our ‘gratitude’ by laughing aloud.
Rohinton,
You are right, I kind of appeared out of the blue, so let me introduce myself. I am Rémi Hugouvieux, I am 27 year old, and I live in France.
I was raised as a Catholic, and to make things clear, i don’t feel the need to convert to the Zoroastrian faith.
I wanted to react on the conversion topic because I find that the ban on conversion is not obvious when you have a look at the scriptures.
Of course, I recognise that I can not pretend being a expert about the Avesta, or havint authoritative opinions.
But I would like to understant why I feel that there is a gap (in my estimation) between the firm reaction of the Parsi clergy and the scriptural evidences.
I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, but I believe that exposing my views and debatting is a good way to learned bloggers to correct me.
Dear Rohinton:
Your statement that actions of ORTHODOX are a result of their desire to PRESERVE. Preserve what and from whom.
No body here is suggesting extending a welcoming to
neo Zoroastrians in our Fire Temples.The issue here is of claiming ‘ownership’ of the Religion. Remi here is right when he states that banning or allowing conversion is something relevant for the Parsi community, not for the Zoroastrian religion.
If we were to accept the claim that. No Pav Mahel exists outside India (including Iran) and it is currently located only on the west coast of India. then it would tantamount to claiming some sort of Religious superiority of those residing in western India, compared to Parsis residing say in Chennai or Kolkatta.Is this claim acceptable to your rational mind.?
Before concluding, may suggest that you should sincerely advise these so called Orthodox (fake in my view) to stop raising controversies and thus those differing with them will have no issues to trounce them. Ask these persons, who you feel want to ‘preserve’ to shed their hubris because it is this hubris that had made them eat a crow oft and on.
Remi,
You have chosen to leave my very simple questions to you ,
unanswered !
I would be curious too, to know if you have just ” an interest in the Indo-Iranian world ” or a VESTED interest in just ONE aspect of the Indo-Iranian world ??
Rohinton: Basically I am a deeply religious person but at the same time dislike the fanatic fatwa masters.
I agree that rift as it is created is not desirable but is not our duty to condemn those hypocrites who practice double standards who alone are responsible for the rift
Frankly, I am not in favour of conversions but certain exceptions made by High Priests themselves have set a precedent not only in the last century but earlier as well. While the community is shrinking numerically, it is all the more necessary to take all the shades of opinions into confidence. Most Fire Temples have barely one dozen or so devotees every day. As suggested by N. T. Fekamfek and like other rational individuals I too feel that certain fire temples not frequented by many can be allotted to local Parsis to perform first 3 days ceremonies for those Parsi Zoroastrian souls who did not want their mortal remains to rot for months. The bogus Orthodox claiming to be staunch even have sadistic streak to deny sacraments for deceased and that’s what hurts.It is this segment that is responsible for the rift. It is for this reason that I would like to appreciate rather radical views of persons like Piloo , Farzana, Anti Dhongeedox, Rational But Religious and Rustomji instead of double speaks from Dadar and their coterie of blind trumpet blowers It is imperative that these fake Orthodox realize that by calling others names like Deformist is not going to silence the radicals.
Piloo,
With regard to your remark that this blog sure is turning out to be a Joker’s Corner- my question to you and others is what can one expect if the community has too many SARDARS who want to propagate their own concocted version of our Religion. They are ‘apt’ at contradicting the contents of the first para of their OWN MESSAGE & ‘INTERPRETATION’ of our Religion in the second para of their OWN same blog.
They seem to assume that rest of the community members are purblind.
And these geniuses are now devoting their precious time in analyzing the language, the timing etc. of posts of others who have exposed them with the hollowness of their concocted ‘divine’ interpretations.
Moreover, to prove that they are busybodies, they even undertake a ‘sacrifice’ of their Holiday time and on week days blog their ‘contributions’ burning midnight oil. How much more ‘sacrifices’ should we expect from these SARDARS. So lets express our ‘gratitude’ by laughing aloud.
Dear Rohinton:
Your statement that actions of ORTHODOX are a result of their desire to PRESERVE. Preserve what and from whom.
No body here is suggesting extending a welcoming to
neo Zoroastrians in our Fire Temples.The issue here is of claiming ‘ownership’ of the Religion. Remi here is right when he states that banning or allowing conversion is something relevant for the Parsi community, not for the Zoroastrian religion.
If we were to accept the claim that. No Pav Mahel exists outside India (including Iran) and it is currently located only on the west coast of India. then it would tantamount to claiming some sort of Religious superiority of those residing in western India, compared to Parsis residing say in Chennai or Kolkatta.Is this claim acceptable to your rational mind.?
Before concluding, may suggest that you should sincerely advise these so called Orthodox (fake in my view) to stop raising controversies and thus those differing with them will have no issues to trounce them. Ask these persons, who you feel want to ‘preserve’ to shed their hubris because it is this hubris that had made them eat a crow oft and on.
Road from being RENEGADE to becoming a REVEREND is very very short.
R R
E E
N V
E E
G R
A E
D N
E D
One alphabet in each of these two words is different. G in reneGade and V in ReVerend.
Now those who shed crocodile tears about the priestly class not getting respect should not strain their minds to find out reasons for this state of affairs.
Road from being RENEGADE to becoming a REVEREND is very very short.
R R
E E
N V
E E
G R
A E
D N
E D
One alphabet in each of these two words is different. G in reneGade and V in ReVerend.
Now those who shed crocodile tears about the priestly class not getting respect should not strain their minds to find out reasons for this state of affairs.
Petty people have petty minds. Nobody can change the petty mind of a petty person!
Who cares for idiotic comments? Lets just ignore them and read the comments with sense and grace!
Me as a born Zoroastrian Parsi allows anyone to convert and to praise God.
Living in Germany noone ever forbid me to go to church and to hear the priest’s words of wisdom. I was/am always most welcome! Noone and no priest ever gave me a feeling of being anything less but God’s child in God’s world!
My Hindu friends in Bombay took me to their temples.
Free entry for everyone in God’s house!
Jeannie
Dear A.Rustomjee,
If you have read my earlier posts, I am not entirely against conversion. The Parsees though, have been the guardians of the Zoroastrian religon ( as have the Zoroastrians in Iran )
in India. They , and only they, have ” preserved ” it in India , thereby allowing it to continue for over a thousand years. They should be allowed to have some say over how it is practised in INDIA atleast !
I do not believe they are trying to lay down rules for how it is practised outside India ( where anything goes as long as it is
popular and helps one to fit in into the social circle ; the very last thing on the agenda there , being a concern /respect for the religion ) .
Why does Ms.Master Moos not move to Tajikistan , where she seems to be very highly regarded, and convert all the citizens there ? Why not to Iran, where the Zoroastrians permit conversions in secret ? Why does she insist on
performing these ceremonies in India ? Why does she not show Zoroastrian tolerance for the sentiments of the peace-loving Zoroastrians/Parsees in India ? Instead, she chooses to leak out details about a ceremony and hopes it will incite the Orthodox. She knows will benefit from the sympathy vote
and publicity; and create a divide among Parsees.
Are you aware, that almost none of the spouses of the Intermarrieds abroad have shown any inclination to leave their wonderful religions and convert to Zoroastrianism ? And that their children are HALF Zoroastrian and HALF other religions even after their navjotes ? This , despite there being many priests who will willingly perform their conversions.
These people’s only desire is to be part of TWO SOCIAL groups and of TWO groups from which they can draw double the benefits ; the Religion is the LAST thing they are concerned about. To enable them to live out their wishes, the Zoroastrian Religion MUST give way to their dual-worship ; and any Zoroastrians who are in their way must be made to leave the Dar-e-Mehr by any any means possibe ( I am embarassed to give you details of how viciously our little kids and we are harassed by them and their supporters . All we can do is to try not to give in to them , and bear their intimidation with a Zoroastrian spirit , for the sake of the religion that means SO MUCH to us and SO MUCH to our children).
Let me point out here, that the non-Zoroastrian spouse is welcomed at the center with open arms , and the message that he/she has more right to be there than us is constantly
promoted and rubbed in !
I have been witness to an Intermarried spouse sauntering into the Fire room as if in a park , and not bowing his/her head in the slightest. How very different to how I , as a tolerant Zoroastrian behave in another’s place of worship.
So, when one attacks the Orthodox for their ” dhong”, one is are supporting and encouraging another group who is MUCH, MUCH more dhongi and cares even less for the Religion than the former.
You are also paving the way for the latter group to bully and get rid of any Zoroastrian opposition, because the good Zoroastrian will always be unable and unwilling to stoop to their level ( Rare exceptions noted0 !
And lastly, you are not far from the day when there will be a sign on Zoroastrian properties and Agiaries ” No admission to Parsees” ; and every force you can imagine, will be used to keep you out. I am not being over-dramatic here, only very realistic.
Try fighting back for those , or for your Religion . Once gone, they are gone FOREVER !!!!
Dear Rohinton,
I thought you just wanted to know where I am from and what my religion is, but I am sorry to have missed the point.
I just like Iranian and Indian languages and cultures, I have no vested interest or hidden agenda regarding Zoroastrianism and/or conversion. No “unlawful” conversion in sight whatsoever, my girlfrient (100% French on all aspects) is not a Zoroastrian so our marriage should mean no threat to the PIZ lineage. I have no Z family, and the only Asians I know are Tamil friends from my cricket club.
So please rest assured that the lift/continuation of ban on conversion in Z communities would not have the slightest impact on my life.
Is it so hard to believe that I might feel interested in understanding the ins and outs of this topic, just for the sake of personal development?
Mrs. Jeannie Antia-Wimmer,
Why did your husband not convert to Zoroastrianism even though he holds it so dear in his heart ?
How can you call my extending an invitation to him to convert to Zoroastrianism as being petty ?
And your children follow two religions – they are free to follow ten !
Just be tolerant of our way of ONE religion worship too !
Thank-you very much !!!
Petty people have petty minds. Nobody can change the petty mind of a petty person!
Who cares for idiotic comments? Lets just ignore them and read the comments with sense and grace!
Me as a born Zoroastrian Parsi allows anyone to convert and to praise God.
Living in Germany noone ever forbid me to go to church and to hear the priest’s words of wisdom. I was/am always most welcome! Noone and no priest ever gave me a feeling of being anything less but God’s child in God’s world!
My Hindu friends in Bombay took me to their temples.
Free entry for everyone in God’s house!
Jeannie
Sorry, Mrs.Jeannie Antia-Wimmer,
I seem to have deleted some sentences from my earlier comments to you.
You would not have been invited by your Hindu friends to the particular Hindu temple that restricts entry to non-Hindus and you would have had to respect those rules ; or would you have gone and fought with the temple authorities to change the rules ?
Also, you should be aware that there are no ” priest’s words of wisdom ” as such, to be heard in the Agiary , as there are in the Church. Most Zoroastrians are so tolerant of other religions that you will hardly have heard of conflict between other religions and us. We may not show this by using the the Christian words of ” God’s child….”
You also say, ” Me as a born Zoroastrian Parsi allows anyone to convert and to praise God ” – so, why has your husband not converted ? or your children ?
Remi,
Is it so hard to understand my question asking you your religion and your country of origin ? Your answer is that your friends are Tamil and your girlfriend is French; and worse, you are also trying to put words in my mouth about ” unlawful ” conversion !!!!
You ask us to explain our religious practices to you ( you are not short of translated materials as can be seen from your posts) , but you do not wish to reveal your own religion or origins ! I am even more fascinated by your interest !
Dear A.Rustomjee,
If you have read my earlier posts, I am not entirely against conversion. The Parsees though, have been the guardians of the Zoroastrian religon ( as have the Zoroastrians in Iran )
in India. They , and only they, have ” preserved ” it in India , thereby allowing it to continue for over a thousand years. They should be allowed to have some say over how it is practised in INDIA atleast !
I do not believe they are trying to lay down rules for how it is practised outside India ( where anything goes as long as it is
popular and helps one to fit in into the social circle ; the very last thing on the agenda there , being a concern /respect for the religion ) .
Why does Ms.Master Moos not move to Tajikistan , where she seems to be very highly regarded, and convert all the citizens there ? Why not to Iran, where the Zoroastrians permit conversions in secret ? Why does she insist on
performing these ceremonies in India ? Why does she not show Zoroastrian tolerance for the sentiments of the peace-loving Zoroastrians/Parsees in India ? Instead, she chooses to leak out details about a ceremony and hopes it will incite the Orthodox. She knows will benefit from the sympathy vote
and publicity; and create a divide among Parsees.
Are you aware, that almost none of the spouses of the Intermarrieds abroad have shown any inclination to leave their wonderful religions and convert to Zoroastrianism ? And that their children are HALF Zoroastrian and HALF other religions even after their navjotes ? This , despite there being many priests who will willingly perform their conversions.
These people’s only desire is to be part of TWO SOCIAL groups and of TWO groups from which they can draw double the benefits ; the Religion is the LAST thing they are concerned about. To enable them to live out their wishes, the Zoroastrian Religion MUST give way to their dual-worship ; and any Zoroastrians who are in their way must be made to leave the Dar-e-Mehr by any any means possibe ( I am embarassed to give you details of how viciously our little kids and we are harassed by them and their supporters . All we can do is to try not to give in to them , and bear their intimidation with a Zoroastrian spirit , for the sake of the religion that means SO MUCH to us and SO MUCH to our children).
Let me point out here, that the non-Zoroastrian spouse is welcomed at the center with open arms , and the message that he/she has more right to be there than us is constantly
promoted and rubbed in !
I have been witness to an Intermarried spouse sauntering into the Fire room as if in a park , and not bowing his/her head in the slightest. How very different to how I , as a tolerant Zoroastrian behave in another’s place of worship.
So, when one attacks the Orthodox for their ” dhong”, one is are supporting and encouraging another group who is MUCH, MUCH more dhongi and cares even less for the Religion than the former.
You are also paving the way for the latter group to bully and get rid of any Zoroastrian opposition, because the good Zoroastrian will always be unable and unwilling to stoop to their level ( Rare exceptions noted0 !
And lastly, you are not far from the day when there will be a sign on Zoroastrian properties and Agiaries ” No admission to Parsees” ; and every force you can imagine, will be used to keep you out. I am not being over-dramatic here, only very realistic.
Try fighting back for those , or for your Religion . Once gone, they are gone FOREVER !!!!
Dear Rohinton,
I thought you just wanted to know where I am from and what my religion is, but I am sorry to have missed the point.
I just like Iranian and Indian languages and cultures, I have no vested interest or hidden agenda regarding Zoroastrianism and/or conversion. No “unlawful” conversion in sight whatsoever, my girlfrient (100% French on all aspects) is not a Zoroastrian so our marriage should mean no threat to the PIZ lineage. I have no Z family, and the only Asians I know are Tamil friends from my cricket club.
So please rest assured that the lift/continuation of ban on conversion in Z communities would not have the slightest impact on my life.
Is it so hard to believe that I might feel interested in understanding the ins and outs of this topic, just for the sake of personal development?
Mrs. Jeannie Antia-Wimmer,
Why did your husband not convert to Zoroastrianism even though he holds it so dear in his heart ?
How can you call my extending an invitation to him to convert to Zoroastrianism as being petty ?
And your children follow two religions – they are free to follow ten !
Just be tolerant of our way of ONE religion worship too !
Thank-you very much !!!
Sorry, Mrs.Jeannie Antia-Wimmer,
I seem to have deleted some sentences from my earlier comments to you.
You would not have been invited by your Hindu friends to the particular Hindu temple that restricts entry to non-Hindus and you would have had to respect those rules ; or would you have gone and fought with the temple authorities to change the rules ?
Also, you should be aware that there are no ” priest’s words of wisdom ” as such, to be heard in the Agiary , as there are in the Church. Most Zoroastrians are so tolerant of other religions that you will hardly have heard of conflict between other religions and us. We may not show this by using the the Christian words of ” God’s child….”
You also say, ” Me as a born Zoroastrian Parsi allows anyone to convert and to praise God ” – so, why has your husband not converted ? or your children ?
Remi,
Is it so hard to understand my question asking you your religion and your country of origin ? Your answer is that your friends are Tamil and your girlfriend is French; and worse, you are also trying to put words in my mouth about ” unlawful ” conversion !!!!
You ask us to explain our religious practices to you ( you are not short of translated materials as can be seen from your posts) , but you do not wish to reveal your own religion or origins ! I am even more fascinated by your interest !
Behram,
I don’t know what you hoped to accomplish by posting distasteful and false personal comments on a public form, but all you have managed to achieve is to reveal to everyone yr twisted, hate-filled mental make up. Strange that you refer to yourself as a saviour of Zarathusti religion, yet by no stretch of imagination can your behaviour be mistaken for good thoughts, good words and good deeds. You may have set out to defame my character, but you have just succeeded in displaying how contemptibe you really are.
Anyway, I repeat the the question that touched your raw nerve- If the act of conversion is not mentioned in your books therefore ‘conversion’ to religion is sinful, than what do you have to say regarding the absence of DIVORCE LAWS?
Again the historical fact that Zoroastrianism spread during Sassanian times due to FORCED CONVERSION couldn’t be refuted by you… so i can understand your frustration.
Anyway, thank you for reinforced my opinion of you as an egotistical, contemptible and cowardly man.
Behram,
I don’t know what you hoped to accomplish by posting distasteful and false personal comments on a public form, but all you have managed to achieve is to reveal to everyone yr twisted, hate-filled mental make up. Strange that you refer to yourself as a saviour of Zarathusti religion, yet by no stretch of imagination can your behaviour be mistaken for good thoughts, good words and good deeds. You may have set out to defame my character, but you have just succeeded in displaying how contemptibe you really are.
Anyway, I repeat the the question that touched your raw nerve- If the act of conversion is not mentioned in your books therefore ‘conversion’ to religion is sinful, than what do you have to say regarding the absence of DIVORCE LAWS?
Again the historical fact that Zoroastrianism spread during Sassanian times due to FORCED CONVERSION couldn’t be refuted by you… so i can understand your frustration.
Anyway, thank you for reinforced my opinion of you as an egotistical, contemptible and cowardly man.
what they think? they think they have this right. they are not real Zoroastrian. and i am sure they do not know any thing about our religion.
what they think? they think they have this right. they are not real Zoroastrian. and i am sure they do not know any thing about our religion.
what they think? they think they have this right. they are not real Zoroastrian. and i am sure they do not know any thing about our religion.
I am an Iranian converted to Zoroastrianism (khshnoomi)…. I consider this religion as my own heritage so I don’t need any permission to practice it….Iran will be zoroastrian again…
I am an Iranian converted to Zoroastrianism (khshnoomi)…. I consider this religion as my own heritage so I don’t need any permission to practice it….Iran will be zoroastrian again…
I am an Iranian converted to Zoroastrianism (khshnoomi)…. I consider this religion as my own heritage so I don’t need any permission to practice it….Iran will be zoroastrian again…
There are a few “enlightened” here in India who would be shortly relocating to Iran, so more power to you there Bahmannshah
There are a few “enlightened” here in India who would be shortly relocating to Iran, so more power to you there Bahmannshah
There are a few “enlightened” here in India who would be shortly relocating to Iran, so more power to you there Bahmannshah
@PHIROZE:
Bahmann refers to Khshnomis. All those who are rational and ‘enlightened’ do not subscribe to Khshnoom hypocrisy and double standards.
@PHIROZE:
Bahmann refers to Khshnomis. All those who are rational and ‘enlightened’ do not subscribe to Khshnoom hypocrisy and double standards.
@PHIROZE:
Bahmann refers to Khshnomis. All those who are rational and ‘enlightened’ do not subscribe to Khshnoom hypocrisy and double standards.
Bahmann i wouldn’t say you have ‘converted’ to zorastrianism. Rather you have ‘rejoined’ what is rightfully yours. Well done. Dont worry about Phiroze, he happens to be a Nargolia Adivasi suffering from an inferiority complex.
Bahmann i wouldn’t say you have ‘converted’ to zorastrianism. Rather you have ‘rejoined’ what is rightfully yours. Well done. Dont worry about Phiroze, he happens to be a Nargolia Adivasi suffering from an inferiority complex.
Bahmann i wouldn’t say you have ‘converted’ to zorastrianism. Rather you have ‘rejoined’ what is rightfully yours. Well done. Dont worry about Phiroze, he happens to be a Nargolia Adivasi suffering from an inferiority complex.
@Sarosh, I thought that Nargolias were basically obstinate persons averse to an open mind. Now you add another attribute that they are bumpkins as well.
@Sarosh, I thought that Nargolias were basically obstinate persons averse to an open mind. Now you add another attribute that they are bumpkins as well.
@Sarosh, I thought that Nargolias were basically obstinate persons averse to an open mind. Now you add another attribute that they are bumpkins as well.
Sorry Bahmannsha, you willhave to do without the “Enlightened” ones since they can’t survive without Parsi Charity in Iran.
@7bed719d143679af835a098eaf54f176:disqus
are you trying to tell me that the Khshnoom hypocrisy and double standards are followed in Iran also? Wasn’t it supposed to be a Parsi hoax????
Sorry Bahmannsha, you willhave to do without the “Enlightened” ones since they can’t survive without Parsi Charity in Iran.
Sorry Bahmannsha, you willhave to do without the “Enlightened” ones since they can’t survive without Parsi Charity in Iran.
@7bed719d143679af835a098eaf54f176:disqus
are you trying to tell me that the Khshnoom hypocrisy and double standards are followed in Iran also? Wasn’t it supposed to be a Parsi hoax????
@7bed719d143679af835a098eaf54f176:disqus
are you trying to tell me that the Khshnoom hypocrisy and double standards are followed in Iran also? Wasn’t it supposed to be a Parsi hoax????
I am a Muslim from Pakistan . You people have a wonderful religion and culture, i am very much impressed. I need some one to preach me your religious teaching
I am a Muslim from Pakistan . You people have a wonderful religion and culture, i am very much impressed. I need some one to preach me your religious teaching
I am a Muslim from Pakistan . You people have a wonderful religion and culture, i am very much impressed. I need some one to preach me your religious teaching
I am a Muslim from Pakistan . You people have a wonderful religion and culture, i am very much impressed. I need some one to preach me your religious teaching
Arzan, where would it be possible to get a list of courses offerred, faculty, past pupils and the campus facilities available in Sanjan of the Zoroastrian College
Arzan, where would it be possible to get a list of courses offerred, faculty, past pupils and the campus facilities available in Sanjan of the Zoroastrian College
Arzan, where would it be possible to get a list of courses offerred, faculty, past pupils and the campus facilities available in Sanjan of the Zoroastrian College