Parsi punchayet moves Supreme Court for ban on priests

The Bombay Parsi Punchayet (BPP) has filed an appeal in the Supreme Court against the high court’s quashing of its ban. The Punchayet had banned two priests from performing religious ceremonies in the trust premises. The appeal was filed on Monday and is expected to come up for hearing on April 18.

By Manoj R Nair | DNA

On March 11, while deciding an appeal filed by former municipal commissioner Jamsheed Kanga and five other prominent Parsi-Zoroastrians, the Bombay high court said that the BPP’s trust deeds did not give them power to restrain the priests.

Priests Khushru Madon and Framroze Mirza were banned from the Towers of Silence in Malabar Hill and two BPP-managed fire temples because they had performed ‘irreligious’ ceremonies, including after-death prayers for Zoroastrians who were cremated.

The priests were also accused of conducting Navjote or initiation ceremonies for children of women married to men from other religions and conducting marriages where one partners was not a Parsi-Zoroastrian.

Quashing the ban, the high court said that the BPP’s trust deed of 1884 did not entitle it to ban priests from the Towers of Silence and fire temples. The trust was asked to withdraw the notice banning the priests.

BPP chairman Dinshaw Mehta said the appeal was filed after advice from the community’s high priests. “They have categorically said that we were right in banning the priests.”

Meanwhile, a group of community members have started an online petition urging the BPP not to file the appeal against the high court order. The petition signed by over 350 people said that instead of spending community money on expensive litigation, the trust should use the funds for education, housing and business loans. The group suggested that the BPP should treat the HC order as a settled matter. The petition said: “The trustees of the BPP should realise that they are the custodians of the funds and properties of the trust… This is a petition to show our dissent and also an earnest appeal to them to accept the high court verdict…”

Mehta justified the appeal saying that the community’s high priests supported the ban. “We will have to go by what the high priests have advised us. Those who have started the online petition are the same people who are supporting the banned priests,” said Mehta.

  • Raksh

    Type your comment here…We Parsi Zoroastrians of India wish the BPP its well deserved victory. May they always be guided and blessed by our High priests. One fails to understand why Kersi Kabraji a resident of Pune is bothered about how the BOMBAY Parsi Punchayat spends its funds and what case to challenge in which court. Is his money being put to use in the legal battle? Have learnt through reliable sources that the reformist bandwagon stands no chance of winning in the Supreme Court, so rather than fight the case, better to scuttle it with last minute attempts by floating a petition which has no meaning whatsoever. If they didn’t want BPP to waste money on litigation why did Kanga and Khushrookhan drag BPP to court? It is important to note that BPP never went to court, they were dragged into litigation by Kanga and Khushrookhan and all the other signatories. Didn’t they realize then that precious Parsi trust funds would we wasted ?

    Now that the battle lines are drawn there is no going back. BPP will now kill two birds with one stone, the second “bird” is to vacate Mister Khushroo Madon from his flat at Godrej Baug since the building is meant only for mobeds and Mister Madon is no longer a mobed as he has been defrocked by the high priests and will be seconded by the SC verdict. This will not make any difference to Madon since ARZ founders, the Wadia brothers are obliged to provide a shelter over the heads of those who have served them faithfully for several years. Maybe Kabraji can float another petition to find an alternative accomodation for the renegade defrocked priest.

  • Zerxes.

    “Those who have started the online petition are the same people who are supporting the banned priests,” said Mehta.”
    If that be so then really Madon and Mirza seem to have a very large following much more than it would actually be since the Online petition has gathered nearly 600 signatures. So Mehta will listen to advice of five senile ‘High’ Priests and WAPIZ megalomaniacs but deliberately disregard feelings and opinions of over 600 individuals. This speaks eloquently about his regards for democratic principles.Really, it is overdue, the community needs a Parsee Anna Hazare to start impeachment process against the ‘Six”.
    My only question to Mehta is, without the Fatwa and Court case, could the BPP have not prevailed upon the Panthakies of two Fire Temples not to avail service of Mirza and Madon. Are the Trustees so powerless that their advice will not be heeded by concerned Panthakies? OR was the motive behind the Fatwa ulterior in that to scare other Mobeds from following the path of these two Priests? Even a primary school going child will know the intent.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    Lets get this clear. I am neither for nor against the BPP. The recent judgment delivered by the High Court is in my opinion incorrect and should by all means challenged in the Supreme Court. The Judge passing the order has no knowledge of our religion and has gone as per the law. For every Unwalla’s and Kersi’s in favor of the judgment there are 10 Arzan’s opposing the Judgment. These on line petetions does not guarantee anything and will have no impact on the BPP or when it comes up for hearing in the Supreme Court. Take my word for it. These people who have signed the petition have taken your word as gospel without verifying the facts and signed hence i do not blame them.
    Our Religious heads are also against such priests who will do anything for money. The BPP Trustees are constitutionally appointed by the people in a democratic manner and in the interest of the community they have every right to fight for what is right and such processes cost money and do you you expect the Trustees to pay from their pocket as if it is their personal agenda to keep these 2 priests away from performing what by and large the community also feels is wrong? What personal agenda do the trustees have against these 2 priests? Please be precise and state the reason.
    You call this Ban ridiculous and you demand to know what the BPP has spent to fight this case? You dont need to waste time on petitions. Simply approach the concerns in writing and ask them for details.
    You want people to sign a petition on the basis of gossip printed by the media that they have spent 75 lakhs ? Based on such false information you want to influence the community to turn against the BPP? I now feel you have an axe to grind with the BPP or you are friends of the 2 priests who have been debarred.
    My friend i don’t blame you for your lack of information on BPP matters. The BPP is spending money on education, Housing, studies abroad etc besides fighting court cases and i strongly suggest you do your homework before passing allegations and influencing people to sign petitions by providing false information.
    This is not a ‘non issue’ as you have termed it in your email. This is an issue that matters to the community and everything possible will be done to uphold the values.
    I suggest you start a petition to curb corruption and petition the Govt of India since they too are not the owners of the country but merely custodians and they are answerable to us Tax Payers. start chasing the elephant and stop chasing the mouse. See the bigger picture.

    All i can fairly say is Prove any of your allegations in your email and you will find my signature on the petition.

    In all fairness please circulate this email to all community members and let them decide what needs to be done. Show them both sides of the coin and let them decide.

    Warm Regards

    Arzan J Ghadially

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    This email is addressed to the community members who have started this online petition.
    Lets get this clear. I am neither for nor against the BPP. The recent judgment delivered by the High Court is in my opinion incorrect and should by all means challenged in the Supreme Court. The Judge passing the order has no knowledge of our religion and has gone as per the law. For every Unwalla’s and Kersi’s in favor of the judgment there are 10 Arzan’s opposing the Judgment. These on line petetions does not guarantee anything and will have no impact on the BPP or when it comes up for hearing in the Supreme Court. Take my word for it. These people who have signed the petition have taken your word as gospel without verifying the facts and signed hence i do not blame them.
    Our Religious heads are also against such priests who will do anything for money. The BPP Trustees are constitutionally appointed by the people in a democratic manner and in the interest of the community they have every right to fight for what is right and such processes cost money and do you you expect the Trustees to pay from their pocket as if it is their personal agenda to keep these 2 priests away from performing what by and large the community also feels is wrong? What personal agenda do the trustees have against these 2 priests? Please be precise and state the reason.
    You call this Ban ridiculous and you demand to know what the BPP has spent to fight this case? You dont need to waste time on petitions. Simply approach the concerns in writing and ask them for details.
    You want people to sign a petition on the basis of gossip printed by the media that they have spent 75 lakhs ? Based on such false information you want to influence the community to turn against the BPP? I now feel you have an axe to grind with the BPP or you are friends of the 2 priests who have been debarred.
    My friend i don’t blame you for your lack of information on BPP matters. The BPP is spending money on education, Housing, studies abroad etc besides fighting court cases and i strongly suggest you do your homework before passing allegations and influencing people to sign petitions by providing false information.
    This is not a ‘non issue’ as you have termed it in your email. This is an issue that matters to the community and everything possible will be done to uphold the values.
    I suggest you start a petition to curb corruption and petition the Govt of India since they too are not the owners of the country but merely custodians and they are answerable to us Tax Payers. start chasing the elephant and stop chasing the mouse. See the bigger picture.

    All i can fairly say is Prove any of your allegations in your email and you will find my signature on the petition.

    In all fairness please circulate this email to all community members and let them decide what needs to be done. Show them both sides of the coin and let them decide.

    Warm Regards

    Arzan J Ghadially

  • Byram. Sidhwa.

    Those who were once staying in sanatoriums and were favoured with flats in in BPP Colonies in South Mumbai cannot but be expected to act as Chamchas of Trustees. Zerxes is right, BPP Trustees, tried to kill two flies by using a high tensile hammer.
    Of course, BPP never went to court, they created a cause of action. Will Ghadially or Raksh assure the community that Supreme Court will overturn the verdict of Mumbai High Court and rele THAT BPP IS A RELIGIOUS BODY AS PER ITS TRUST DEED?

  • Ratan Unwalla

    To: All Our Fellow Parsi Irani Humdins,
    HOPE BETTER SENSE PREVAILS WITH THE BPP.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/hbspwbpp/petition.html

    We all know about the landmark judgment delivered by the Bombay High Court on 11th March 2011, wherein the ban imposed by the BPP on the two priests Ervad Khushru Madon & Framroze Mirza was quashed & struck down.
    The court judgment clearly states:
    1. There is nothing in the Trust conditions which gives right to BPP to meddle in religious matters
    2. An Ordained Priest cannot be de-frocked.

    Now BPP has decided to appeal & take the matter to the Supreme Court.

    What is BPP trying to achieve and at what cost & purpose? To begin with the ban itself was a bad idea & was certainly not prudent on the part of BPP to issue such a Fatwa of banning the two priests. It smacked of vindictiveness & a political move for political gains.

    What has been the total expense the BPP has incurred from the community funds on trying to defend their ridiculous ban in the court till date? This is a highly valid question every member of the community, as a beneficiary, should ask & have a right to know.

    As reported in various media, the BPP have squandered Rs. 75 lakhs (7.5 million) till date and if they file an appeal in Supreme Court the expenses would be further more than 1 Crore (10 million) on the community coffers. What is BPP trying to achieve and at what cost & purpose?

    Now that the High Court has delivered the verdict, shouldn’t the BPP treat it as a settled matter and concentrate on more real and serious issues? Can BPP not use funds for constructive manner like:
    1. Buy seats in Medical, Engineering, Law, Commerce and other colleges (those giving courses in professional fields), so that our students can get into these colleges. Any expense spent on such a project will bring many fold results. The prosperity of the community will definitely go up.
    2. Use funds to see that every student of the community can get higher education of his / her choice.
    3. Use funds to subsidize house rents of the needy community members.
    4. Use funds to finance our young entrepreneurs– Some of it can be as loans or on returnable basis.

    Are these not better ways to use the funds instead of wasting financial resources of the community on a non-issue ?

    The trustees of the BPP should realize that they are not the owners of the Trust but are the custodians of the Funds & Properties of the Trust. Should they be allowed to squander & waste any financial amount they wish to from the Trust’s fund to further their own political agenda?

    This is a petition to show our dissent with the BPP against wasting & squandering the community funds and also an earnest appeal to them to accept the High Court verdict & not waste any further resources of the Trust funds by approaching the Supreme Court over a non-issue.

    If you are in agreement, please sign your name in the Petition below & also forward it to as many members of the community as possible. We will be forwarding this to the BPP so that better sense prevails. Join us, and let us make ourselves heard.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/hbspwbpp/petition.html

  • Homi Dalal

    Yes I fully agree on one point of the priest can do anything for money.What Kotwal deed for two flats on in Cusrow baug & one in Rustom Baug + life time pension of 15000 per month. DRM now says that they have obeyed high priests. But why it took 9 to 10 years to obey these Puppet Priests, As per the admission the notices were issued to all agiaries & Atashbehram not to appoint services of these two priests since they are praying for those who opt for burial Or cremation. The second charge is doing Navjot of intermarried couples.

    Now regarding first charge all the priest who are praying at Doongerwadi should be banned , since the rotting bodies are taken out & burried in Mass grave in a pit adjacent to Dokhma or either burnt inside Dokhma itself when there is House Full sorry Dokhma Full board on dokhma. Today dokhmas are used as temporary godowns for the dead, which are emptied when they are FULL. So ultimately bodies are buried in undignified manner without dignity.

    About navjot, what Kotwal did is same as Mirza & madon are doing. Grand father of Jamspasa did Navjot of Suzzane Tata ( Mother of Jrd) & blessed her wedding. Pious dastur Kukadaroo performed the Navjot of 17 Juddins. Why his photos are there in all the firetemples. Any Fatwas for them?. When trustees like DRM< KM<AM<AT own close relatives are married to inter faith why this show bazi to prove that they are religious.It was reported in Parsiana that Tirandasown sister who is married outside faith & fully converted were accompanied by her to Dadar Agiary in one of the religious ceremonies. DRM & Even KM issaid to be heavy smokers.

    Now the question before court was whether Trust deeds provide any powers to Trustees to interfere in religious matter & judges clearly said that they read the whole trust deed & nothing as such is there. Now by going to SC how that clause will come in Trust Deed.

    Now they know that chances of reversing the judgement -so what they need is face saving device. Who can be better than these Puppets?

    If these priests were so concerned why they did not say a word & try to become intervener? Why after the judgment was delivered they wake up from the sleep?

    Now as per their claim they had issued letters against priests how is that in December 2006 Dastur Kotwal did a Navjot along with Madon in Saher Agiary. Similarly in Sept & October he did Jashan in Wadia's house along with Mirza.

    Mr. Ghadially , can you do me one favour to the community? You write to these BPP how much money they spent on legal charges on this case. They refuse to account to their co trustee Mr. Noshir Dadrawalla – it will be amusing to see what you get in reply. If you think that they will respond to your letter than I feelthat you are living in fool's pardise.

  • Icchaporia.

    Mr. Ghadially.
    Uptill now I had not bothered to sign the Online petition but after reading your above message insinuating that all 700 plus signatories have signed without comprehending the facts and that they are blind followers, I too will now place my signature.
    You better read the post of Zerxes herein above.
    Such online petition are outcome of one sided publication of “paid News’ in Community’s “Weakly” to use earlier term of WAPIZ. Persons need avenue to express themselves, their inner feelings but to dismay of persons like you, you are helpless in stopping such Online petitions because the Moderators /Editors on such platforms are not on payrolls or subsidized ‘Conveyance’ facilities from BPP or WAPIZ. Hence your outburst of frustration is understandable. But remember, the current generation believes in freedom of expression and that is going to manifest itself even if vested interests continue choking the print media by misusing the financial prowess.Just because a Dasturji with white beard said something is not going to be accepted at face value more so after knowing their own past ‘exceptions’.
    For persons like you, it is time to reflect on what has been ‘achieved’ by taking over a community weekly mis assuming that it will be a cake walk to brain wash youngsters with one sided “News”.

  • Icchaporia.

    Zerxes,
    I fully support your line of thinking as to your question “My only question to Mehta is, without the Fatwa and Court case, could the BPP have not prevailed upon the Panthakies of two Fire Temples not to avail service of Mirza and Madon. Are the Trustees so powerless that their advice will not be heeded by concerned Panthakies?
    To term seven hundred signatories as blind followers of Unwalla or Kabrajee is to insult the the intelligence status of the signatories and to treat them on par with those attending meets at Dhobhi Talao and nod their heads and raise both their hands for a vote count.

  • Phiroze

    Zerxes, Arzan has thankfully answered all your queries. Do you seriously think that 600 signatures out of which half are either repeats or by non community members qualify as an opinion? And would it not be better that once and for all this question is settled so that the BPP does not have to spend on legal cost again and again to reply to somebody else in future on this matter? Let all mobeds and behdins who want to follow Madon and Moos know that the community is not going to stand and watch silently while they carry on their anti Parsi nefarious activities.

  • kunwalla

    Now let us all wait for the divine intervention! Why did the so called high priests themselves not ban those two & what right do they have to pass judgement on what BPP does? Next, does BPP undertake to always listen to our so called high priests in the future? If not, then can the high priests take recourse to law, just because the BPP has already dug their own grave earlier. Either way its a loss-loss situation for BPP and this is going to haunt BPP forever……….

  • Behroze.

    If we analyse dispassionately, what Zerxes has stated has much truth. BPP could have instructed the Panthakies of 2 Fire Temples not to employ the two Priests and the matter would have ended there. It is the aim to control the enrire community that BPP Trustees indulged in issuing a fatwa to deter others from following Madon & Mirza and their misdaventure has proved to be a drain on BPP finances.
    A. Ghadially should note that persons who have signed the petition have done so not out of sympathy for two Priests but to prevent wastage of funds in court cases. Those who have signed are educated and worldly wise and are not the type to be swayed by anybody. He should not insult the intelligence of the signatories of Online petition. How else would an average Parsi is expected to be heard Mr. Ghadially? Will Jame weekly ever print the opinion of avarage Parsi if that opinion is not in consonance with the “official’ thinking of those who control this weekly.?

  • Ratan Unwalla

    Phiroze Panthaki,
    Please convey our thanks to your spouse Mrs. Meheru Phiroze Panthaki on our behalf for endorsing the petition. Her signature is on number 399 for your information.

  • Contradhongi

    Logic of Raksh is astounding. He has raised a question why Kabrajee from Pune is bothered about Bombay Parsees. Why did Raksh not find anything wrong when the Ahmedabadi fruit juice magnet meddle in affairs of Bombay.

  • Thrity.

    RAKSH AND ARZAN J. GHADIALLY.
    Please note that what Ervad Khushroo Madon is doing is as per the tenets of ZOROASTRIAN RELIGION.You say that we should respect and obey the HIGH PRIESTS.O.K.But why only the five approved by the BPP.namely Dr.Jamaspa Asha,Dr.Feroze Kotwal,Dastur Meherjirana,Dastur Cyrus Dastur and Dastur Peshotan Mirza.

    Why not respect the other five HIGH PRIESTS like Dr.Kersy Antia, Dr. Jehan Bagli, Dastur Khushroo Dastur,Late Dr.Kanga,Late Dastur Jamasp Asha(grandfather of present Dr.Jamaspa Asha), Please read the translations of Gathas and other Zoroastrian prayers they have done.All these translations by these scholars say that “ZOROASTRIAN RELIGION IS UNIVERSAL AND SHOULD SPREAD IN ALL THE SEVEN REGIONS OF THE WORLD.(Means Zoroastrian Religion is not only for parsees)Also they say that a man and a woman are equal in Zoroastrian Religion.This book is published by BPP (three volumes) of Dr.Kanga.
    Now Ervad Madon obeys these second set of High Priests so what is wrong.Why he respects the second set,I suppose because the first set of High Priests are not able to show any scriptural evidence from Gathas,etc.

    Also I had read in Parsiana magazine that Ervad Madon had requested the trustees of BPP when he was summoned in their board meeting after the ban was imposed, that let the matter be settled over a cup of tea and let it be out of court settlement,but the trustees flatly refused and the chairman Mr.Dinshaw Mehta told Ervad Madon that he will be physically lifted and thrown out of Doongerwadi if he dares to perform any religious ceremony there at Doongerwadi.
    Hence I suppose he had no choice but to resort to court.

    Please be fair to Ervad Madon and note that he is not doing any conversion(even though it is allowed in our Zoroastrian religion) and anything wrong or anything against the Tenets of Zoroastrian Religion.He had written a long letter of 12 pages showing the documetary evidence of over 15 avesta scholars/Vada Dasturs,past and present who fully supports him and his actions,since they are not at all irreligious.(You may go to archives of this Parsi Khabar and read his article of 4th October,2010 under the caption “ERVAD KHUSHROO MADON SENDS MAIL FOR SUPPORT.”
    No High priest from set 1 has been able to point out a single flaw in his above referred letter,as naturally they cannot say that over 15 such INTELLECTUALS(like Dasturs/Professors/Scholars Kanga,Dhalla,Bagli,Antia,Jamaspasha,Sethna,Stanley Insler, Minocher Homji,Bode,Nanavutty, Humbach, K.D. Irani,Mills L.H. ,T.R. Sethna,,Sidhwa,,Taraporweala I.J.S.,Nasr,Behramgore Anklesaria,,S.J.Bulsara,BahmanSurti,Azargoshasb,Homi Dhalla,etc.)are wrong and renegrade and that they do not know the avesta or understands our Zoroastrian Religion.

    You are mistaken that Ervad Madon is defrocked.He has not been defrocked.He has been performing all religious ceremonies as a full fledged mobed, like navjotes,weddings,jashans,afargans,farokshis,satums,etc.etc.in many agiaries in Mumbai along with other respected mobeds.It is all nonsense and absolutely wrong to say that he has been officially defrocked by his own ecclesiastical panth.There does not exist any such ecclesiastical panth as was also announced by a high Priest that once a priest is ordained in the house of God he cannot be defrocked.
    IN FACT HE HAS MENTIONED TO MY FRIEND MR.UNWALLA ONCE WHEN HE MET HIM IN AGIARY Performing afargan for HIS deceased WIFE,THAT HIS PRIESTLY WORK HAS INCREASED TREMENDOUSLY AFTER THE SO CALLED FATWA OR BAN.
    In my opinion he should not be defrocked as he has not done anything wrong.

    Ervad Madon is also not charging exhorbitant amounts for his services and is very nominal compared to other Panthakis of agiaries,etc.which he has mentioned in his letter and not a single behdin has till date complained about the same.SO THIS IS THE TRUTH. So I feel we should appreciate his selfless service to this community and also for keeping our wonderful Zoroastrian religion alive.
    Let us have peace in our community.
    MAY DADAR AHURA MAZDA BLESS THIS NOBLE SOUL AND MAY HE GET JUSTICE(as he got in the HOUSE OF GOD) in SUPREME COURT..

    Ahura Mazda never fails.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    I have nothing to say except go deeper and you may find out that the views of the persons who have started this initiative are reformists and are all hand in glove with the 2 priests. If their concern was to stop this wasteful expenditure of the BPP there were other options within the parameters of law that could have been exercised. CAN ANYONE OF THESE SIGNATORIES PROVE THAT THE BPP HAS SPENT 75 LAKHS. i DARE ANYONE TO PROVE IT AND I WILL SIGN THE PETITION BUT I WILL NOT SIGN IT ON THE BASIS OF GOSSIP PRINTED BY THE MEDIA. THE PURPOSE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO STARTED THE PETITION DRIVE IS NOT TO STOP THE BPP FROM WASTING MONEY ON COURT CASES BUT THEIR HIDDEN AGENDA IS TO GATHER SUPPORT FOR THE PRIESTS BY USING THE 75 LAKH EXPENSE PROPAGANDA AND MAKE PEOPLE SIGN. YES I VERY MUCH DOUBT THE INTELLIGENCE OF THESE PEOPLE UNLESS THEY CAN PROVE 75 LAKHS HAVE INDEED BEEN SPENT.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    Let me also mention here THE BPP DID NOT DRAG THE 2 PRIESTS TO COURT. IT WAS THE OTHER WAY ROUND. WHY DID THESE SO CALLED PETITIONERS NOT PETITION THE 2 PRIESTS TO WITHDRAW THE CASE. WHERE WERE THESE 600 ODD SIGNATORIES AT THAT TIME? THEIR TIMELY ACTION WHEN REQUIRED COULD HAVE SAVED THE COMMUNITY 75 LAKHS. WHEN YOU POINT A FINGER 3 FINGERS ARE POINTING AT YOU. THE BPP WILL FIGHT THE CASE EVEN IF THERE ARE 10000 SIGNATORIES ( THOUGH I DOUBT IF IT WILL CROSS 2000 ) ONLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR WHAT IS RIGHT AND LEAVE THE REST TO GOD.

  • Raksh

    Thrity,

    If as you state Mister Khushroo Madon’s business has improved after the ban as he is getting more offers for ceremonies, what is the hue and cry all about? He and all right thinking Parsis should then support and enforce the BPP ban as we are helping our fellow mobed increase his business. Thank you for pointing this out to us, we can use this aspect in our SC case.

    The high priests who are supporting the BPP ban are all from India and all orthodox in their outlook and practice of our faith. The so called “High Priests” you have mentioned in set 2 who reside outside India are already banned by the Parsi community since they chose to move away from the tenets of our religion. It is obvious that a thief would only support a thief, birds of the same feather will have the same opinion. This is exactly why their opinions are never taken into account. As regards religion being spread over seven regions of the earth, this canard has been doing the rounds ever since ARZ was formed and wrong translations thrust on the gullible Parsis. This has been refuted several times and we shall not repeat them here for the sake of brevity. By the way it is Ervad Kavasji Kanga and not Dr. Kanga as you have wrongly mentioned.

    After the BPP wins the SC case and we are all sure it will, Mister Madon’s revenue will increase leaps and bounds as there are so few renegades. Also he may receive offers from the “High priests” you mentioned in set 2, so he will get opportunities for performing ceremonies abroad. At the rate at which the foreign Parsis are intermarrying, I am sure he will make good money and plan to settle there. Which also means his Bombay flat at Godrej Baug will be vacant. This can then be utilized to house a deserving mobed who performs ceremonies as stated in our religion and as has been approved by the High Priests in India.

  • Icchaporia

    Ghadially here wants proof that BPP spent Rs. 75 lacs on the Court case. O.K. the onus of proving the same lies on the persons making this claim BUT can Ghadially substantiate his hypothesis that ALL the signatories to the Online Petition are REFORMIST AND HAND IN GLOVE WITH THE 2 PRIESTS? Now it is for Ghadially to prove.

  • Thrity

    Dear Arzan,
    Please read third para of my above referred comments and you will be proved wrong when you say in your first line of your above comment dt. 9 April 2011 at 12.15 am. “THE BPP DID NOT DRAG THE 2 PRIESTS TO COURT,IT WAS THE OTHER WAY ROUND. This statement of yours is wrong.
    So now be fair and keep your word and sign our petition which you promised to do so if you are proved wrong as mentioned by you in your first long comments.Thanks.
    Thrity.

  • Zerxes.

    To,
    Phiroze,
    I do not find anything in the post of Ghadially which answer my points. Forget the Online petition for a moment, are you not of the opinion that a Trust Deed incoroprates the wishes of the Settlor and the provisions therein have to observed. Well here is a case where BPP tried to overstep their powers. Thats all. If BPP has no powers then it cannot become arrogant and assume powers not incorporated in Trust Deed. Before you say that Trust Deed was made ages ago, true but then the provisions of exposure of dead to Sun too were made centuries back when Malabar Hill was a jungle- not a concrete one as at present. There were scavenging birds which are missing now.
    After reading Ratan Unwalla’s post of 8th April 2011, I suggest you avoid use the word ‘NEFARIOUS’ hereafter.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    Dear Ichaporia – Seems your understanding of the english language is very poor . I quote my words ‘ I have nothing to say except go deeper and you may find out that the views of the persons who have started this initiative are reformists and are all hand in glove with the 2 priests’ It means the initiators of the petition and all the petitioners.
    Ms Thrity – Your understanding of the English language too is poor. I quote ‘ I DARE ANYONE TO PROVE IT AND I WILL SIGN THE PETITION’ Prove that 75 lakhs have been spent. Prove it and i will sign it. I still maintain it and i still maintain that i doubt the intelligence of the signatories. One character after reading my post on people signing blindly informed that he too has signed ( blindly ) One more thing pl dont believe what the parsiana says. They are anti BPP and will write trash. Check it out yourself. This is what i have been saying. Dont sign the petition on the basis of gossip printed. Take some trouble and find out the facts unless you too are living abroad and have to depend on the net for information.

    Both of you please read my post and let me know if i am wrong.

    No matter what these people living abroad and those married to non parsees say. The Reformist will never succeed in suppressing the orthodox. This is not my challenge but my faith and the confidence i have in our religion.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    Dear Ichaporia – Seems your understanding of the english language is very poor . I quote my words ‘ I have nothing to say except go deeper and you may find out that the views of the persons who have started this initiative are reformists and are all hand in glove with the 2 priests’ It means the initiators of the petition and not all the petitioners.
    Ms Thrity – Your understanding of the English language too is poor. I quote ‘ I DARE ANYONE TO PROVE IT AND I WILL SIGN THE PETITION’ Prove that 75 lakhs have been spent. Prove it and i will sign it. I still maintain it and i still maintain that i doubt the intelligence of the signatories. One character after reading my post on people signing blindly informed that he too has signed ( blindly ) One more thing pl dont believe what the parsiana says. They are anti BPP and will write trash. Check it out yourself. This is what i have been saying. Dont sign the petition on the basis of gossip printed. Take some trouble and find out the facts unless you too are living abroad and have to depend on the net for information.

    Both of you please read my post and let me know if i am wrong.

    No matter what these people living abroad and those married to non parsees say. The Reformist will never succeed in suppressing the orthodox. This is not my challenge but my faith and the confidence i have in our religion.

  • Aban.

    One thing has been made certain by BPP Trustees i.e. to antagonise the middle of the path voters who were always inclined towards traditional minded orthodox candidates. Their anger, I am afraid will translate into voting for a die hard Reformists in the next election and only BPP Trustees will have to blame for thir misadventure.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    This one is for Ichaporia – I quote from my post ‘ go deeper and you may find out that the views of the persons who have started this initiative are reformists and are all hand in glove with the 2 priests’ I have said THE PERSONS WHO HAVE STARTED THE INITIATIVE and not all the signatories.

    This is for Thrity – I quote ‘CAN ANYONE OF THESE SIGNATORIES PROVE THAT THE BPP HAS SPENT 75 LAKHS. i DARE ANYONE TO PROVE IT AND I WILL SIGN THE PETITION’ I still stand by me word. Prove it and i will surely sign it. One more thing Thrity. Rely on neutral sources. Dont go by the gossip of the Parsiana writes. They are again Puppets of a group of reformists. Dont believe in gossip please. What is written on the net is not gospel. Take some pains and find out facts.

    I hope i have clarified myself explicitly.

  • Behroze.

    ‘ and i still maintain that i doubt the intelligence of the signatories.’ Arzan Ghadially. Doubting intelligence of over a thousand educated individuals ? -Only an extremely prejudiced and a servile mind can utter such words.

  • Phiroze

    Zerxes / Unwala, Sorry to dissapoint you but the person referred by both of you is not related to me. My wife also finds such activities of your group NEFARIOUS.

    Zerxes, the trust deeds also states that the doongerwadi estate be used only for dokhmanasini. All those mobeds and behdins who want and advocate cremation cannot claim use of the estate for anyother method of disposal.

  • Phiroze

    Arzan, Also the case was decided in BPP’s favour by the single bench judge and the petitioners went in appeal. So the BPP had to spend more on the appeal. Let thrity ichhaporia and aban know this too

  • Ratan Unwalla

    For Arzan Ghadially,

    BPP has spent close to 75 lakhs till date on this case and God knows how many crores would be spent in the Supreme Court. Parsiana has reported accurately. Mr. Dinshaw Mehta the Chairman of the BPP is on record, be it in the Federation Meetings, in the BPP Review & also in his letter in Jame dtd. 7th November 2010, stating the high expenditure being incurred by the BPP for this case. Parsiana reported the figures around 3 issues back and if you dear Arzan, think it is fictitious, why is that the usually very vocal Mr. Dinshaw Mehta & BPP are totally silent about it. Now that for Supreme Court, BPP has appointed Abhishek Manusinghvi & Mukul Rohtagi, God only knows how many crores of the community funds would be spent.

    Arzan Ghadially, you appear to be totally ignorant or not aware about the fees the legal counsels charge in High Court & the Supreme Court. I would like to draw your attention to the following article which appeared in INDIA TODAY (8th Dec. 2010):

    “India Today: What Lawyers Earn? Salve, Rohtagi & Mansinghvi at Rs. 25 lakhs per day.”
    http://www.barandbench.com/brief/2/1160/india-today-what-lawyers-earn-salve-rohtagi-and-manusinghvi-at-rs-25-lakh-per-day

    Abhishek Manusinghvi – Fee for Appearance Rs. 2.50 to Rs. 3 lakhhs. For a Full Day Rs. 25 lakhs.

    Mukul Rohtagi – Fee for Appearance Rs. 2.50 to Rs. 3 lakhs. For a Full Day Rs. 25 lakhs.

    (Now please do not say that even India Today figures are not correct).

    Now your guess is as good as mine. Now BPP will spend multi-crores to defend their ridiculous ban. In fact Parsiana has understated the expenditure & not overstated it.

    And for your information the Legal Team from the Petitioner’s side fought & is fighting the case “PRO BONO” i.e. without charging any penny – FREE OF COST. That is what I would call commitment to the cause. Try finding such people from the other side.

  • Kanga.

    Mr. Azan Wadia.
    With five messages a day from one A.J. Ghadially alone , Parsi Khabar may soon have to undergo change of name to GHADIALLY”S BLOG.

  • Hormuz

    This issue is not one of orthodoxy or reformism. The fact that the Trustees are doing something in this ‘sub chalega’ sort of environment is good enogh for me.

    Dont know if any one has read the main reasons why the Vada Dasturs de-frocked these priests and why the BPP obeyed the instructions of the Vada Dasturs.

    How many of you are aware that these two priests were doing conversions of FULL NON PARSIs in to the faith. Not only that – in a recent case, one of these priests was caught doing a NAVAR MARTAB ceremony on a non-parsi Russian.

    Is this what is acceptable to us. Do we want the Parsi community opened up to one and all. Please consider that this action only dilutes the community and full true parsis will die out within a matter of years.

    There is so much negative propoganda that is being spread but should one seek the true facts you will realise that what the BPP and Vada Dasturs are doing is only safeguarding the interests of our community, religion and youth.

    I tried to write the same on the online petition – however – my post was disregarded and ignored. Where is there much spoken about transperancy now?

    Our community faces issues which the community need to discuss and decide unannimously – however, opening the doors of the community to all would be catastrophic. You would have any Mohammed Michael or Mahesh wanting to entre our agiaries, and living in our baugs.

    Please try to let better sense prevail on this entire issue. A sollution is possible but banning these priests for their actions of full non-parsi conversions – for MONEY is a correct step.

  • Zerxes.

    Hormuz,
    Since you are a pure Parsee can you give replies to the following:
    !) What is the criterion for elevation of a Priest to Vada? All the 6 can not claim to have made “research”.
    2) Beyond Martab, is their any further training?
    3)Mere putting on a Shawl by another self styled “Vada” is all that elevation ceremony that takes place. Right or Wrong?
    4) I agree with you that doors of our Fire Temples cannot be opened up for all and sundry but what explanation do you have for presence in Fire Temples of Chasniwalla who are of mixed Origin?
    5) If you read foreign links, Zoro priests of Iran perform Navjotes in Norway and CIS Countries. They induct them into Zoroastrianism not Parseeism. Right?
    6) Are ALL Priests in Iran PARSEES?
    7)What wrong is committed in inducting a Russian into Zoroastrian priesthood. That chap would never have entered any Fire Temple in India, that for sure.
    8) Speaking of :Vada’ Priests, can you justify rank conversion of a Christian at the age 80 for favour of a monthly dole and two flats? So what is the difference between Kotwal and Mirza & Madon?
    9) Can a Navjote be performed after attaining puberty.?

    IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS, PL GO TO YOUR “VADA” PAV PRIESTS AND GET THEIR CLARIFICATION AND THEN REVERT ON THIS PORTAL.
    Till then spare your “Vadas’ of further exposure and adverse publicity.

  • Raksh

    Hormuz,
    Did you in your wildest dreams imagine that your comment would be posted on the reformist’s online petition? Delve a little deeper, you will realize that this whole petition is rigged. Pick up any 50 names and ask Kabraji for their contact details. The truth is these names / identities do not exist. These are “ghosts” signing the petition and only Kabraji and his cronies are the living identities. The comment requires “approval” from the moderator. So much for their double standards and hypocricy. Don’t bother, these online petitions have no standing in a court of law.

  • Contradhongi

    I am prepared to ensure that comments of Hormuz get reflected in Online petition PROVIDED he is able to arrange for publication of views of mine and some others holding rational views in JAME. WEEKLY.
    As for comments of Raksh, I assume he is computer literate and if so he ought to know that unless a valid E Mail address is provided, the Votes and comments are held invalid by Online Petition Moderator.
    RAKSH : I STILL AWAIT YOUR REPLY TO MY POST of 8th April @9.53 p.m. which read as “Logic of Raksh is astounding. He has raised a question why Kabrajee from Pune is bothered about Bombay Parsees. Why did Raksh not find anything wrong when the Ahmedabadi fruit juice magnet meddle in affairs of Bombay”
    No body is interested in reading outbursts of a frustrated and prejudiced mind. It only proves that such messengers are pure, unadlterated DHONGEES. believing in one set of rules for them and another for those having rational thinking.

  • Contradhongi.

    Shakespeare rightly said that ‘Lover, the lunatic and the poet are imaginations all compact – one sees more devils than vast hell can hold……………” Thats exactly the predicament of frustrated dhongee ‘orthodox’ when they say that ‘ghost’ /fictitious votes have been cast on Online Petition.But if these SAME frustrated persons start an Online petition, all signatories have to be ‘assumed’ as ‘genuine’ ! Hypocrisy has its limits.

  • Phiroze

    Hormuz, just tell Zerxes that if he wants to follow what is done in Iran we shall pay for his one way ticket there. Also ask him why could the sham induction of a russian not be done in Russia or Iran? How could he have ensured that the russian or anyone else after him would not have entered firetemples?. If he reads foreign links and sees the photos of navjotes done in Norway and CIS countries he will know the age at which a navjote can be done. Let him know that all vadas and samosas who are anti Parsis will not be spared and exposed.

  • Phiroz.

    The ‘High Priests’ are getting badly exposed of their past actions and living as they do in a house of glass, it would be prudent for them not to contradict their past actions. Are they truly repentant of their past deeds?
    Next point is those who want to pretend to be pillars of Orthodoxy and tenets and refer to such chameleon Priests as ‘High’. Their views quoting such “High” Priests only enables persons like yours truly to expose double standards and earn the High Priests adverse publicity
    Raksh should note that the many signatories to online petition against BPP’s wastage of finances, .have also earlier signed the Online petition for Save Udwada. So much for alleged ghosts petitioners. What prevents Raksh & Hormuz from starting another Online petition in support of BPP’s foolhardiness? Will that accommodate divergent views?Think before expressing and do not underestimate the intellectual level of others.

  • Thrity N.Madon

    Dear Hormuz,
    kindly be fair to Ervad Khushroo Madon and read the explanation letter of 12 pages which he had written in his defense proving that what he is doing is right and absolutely as per the tenets of our Zoroastrian Religion.This letter was on this PARSI KHABAR DT. OCT.4,2010.You may go the ARCHIVE of this portal and read the same.However I have a copy and I am quoting a few paragraphs from his letter as follows:-Ervad Madon says:-

    B.P.P. AND WAPIZ SAYS THAT I AM DOING CONVERSIONS. PLEASE NOTE THAT THOUGH CONVERSION IS ALLOWED IN ZOROASTRIAN RELIGION, I AM NOT DOING ANY CONVERSIONS. WE ALL KNOW THAT OUR SACRED FAITH OF ZOROASTRIANISM EXIST IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD BUT HAS SADLY DECLINED. THESE ZOROASTRIANS ARE NOT PARSEES. THEY ARE FERVENT BELIEVERS IN THE TENETS OF OUR HOLY PROPHET AND DON’T CLAIM TO BE PARSEES.

    Ervad Madon further writes:-

    As regards the naver ceremony of Russian Zoroastrian Mr.(Herbad) Mikhail Chistyakov at Sanjan, I wish to state that we have not done anything wrong. The rule that a “son of a Parsee Zoroastrian athornan(from parsee priestly family) can only become a Naver “ applies to the PARSEE ZOROASTRIANS IN INDIA.It does not apply to NON-PARSEE ZOROASTRIANS IN ARYAN VAEJA COUNTRIES LIKE TAJIKISTAN,UZBEKISTAN,MOSCOW,ST.PETERSBERG,ETC,ETC.(also there is no such rule in the Avestan texts,and which in fact give equality of status to both men and women as ‘MAGHAVANS’-the original Avestan term for mobeds, means not only that a Zoroastrian man but a women can also be a mobed)For this reason we did not want to use any PARSEE TRUST PROPERTY LIKE AGIARY,WELL,BARASHNUM GAH,ETC. That is why we made arrangements at Sanjan, at the private property of Zoroastrian College owned by Dr. Meher Master Moos’s SBBS and Mazdayasni Monestree.Mikhail was ready and prepared for this ceremony. He has learnt by heart the required prayers and is a practicing NON-PARSEE Zoroastrian for the last so many years. If he had become a naver and had gone back to St. Petersberg WHAT HARM THIS WOULD HAVE BROUGHT TO THE PARSEE COMMUNITY IN INDIA? He would have used his priesthood to promote Zoroastrianism which already persists in his country. Their Zoroastrian Association members about 250 in number had collected the amount for his ceremony.
    Unfortunately this good work which we were doing was stopped in the middle in my absence by so called 45 saviours of our Zoroastrian religion in an un-zoroastrian way, by destroying property, desecrating fire, attacking a lady (Dr. Moos)and a very respected, kind and mild Russian. Zoroastrian(Mikhail) whose clothes were also torn and was made naked. I AM SURE PROPHET ZARTHUSTRA WILL GIVE JUSTICE AND WILL PUNISH THESE SO CALLED SAVIOURS OF OUR RELIGION.
    Unquote:
    ______________________________________________

    So you can see from the above that what Ervad Madon has done and is doing is not at all wrong,as the five priests have also not been able to counter this,till date.
    Also I read recently that 8 Zoroastrian Women after training have been made Zoroastrian Priests in Iran.Ofcourse they are not parsees,so what is the harm.Can our Dasturs or BPP trustees stop them from becoming good Zoroastrian Priests.Why have they not objected to this(ofcourse they dare not).

    Zoroastrian religion is not the monopoly of parsees alone,please note again. There are a lot of non parsee Zoroastrians all over the world,especially in aryan vaeja countries like Tajikistan,Uzbekistan,Moscow,St.Petersberg,Kazakastan,etc,etc,
    Even I saw on YOU TUBE that Russian President Mr.Putin saying about Zoroastrianism In Russia.

    Parsee is a race and Zoroastrianism is religion.

    Sorry for being too long in my comments but I feel we should give justice to Ervad Madon and listen to his side of explanations also.
    THANKS AND LETS HAVE PEACE IN OUR WONDERFUL PARSEE ZOROASTRIAN COMMUNITY.

  • Hormuz

    Dear Zerxes

    There is no need to mock the current state of affairs.

    There is a divide in the community and it is causing destruction from within. Let us on this forum have discussions and refrain from making attacks on one another.

    You seem to have the opinion that the conversion of anyone be allowed. That is your opinion. However you must also respect that this is not the opinion of the majority of the community.

    If for a change we have pro-active Trustees who have taken the the renegade priests to task – why are we now shutting them. When they do something we yell when they dont we yell. Can we never be appreciated with what we have!

  • Zerxes.

    Dear Hormuz,
    Since you have replied in a sensible /rational manner, I take this opportunity to state as follows:
    Firstly, I have no intention to mock at anybody but I cannot allow the historical facts as they are to brushed under the carpet. Your ‘well’ wisher by name Phiroze suggests that I should be given one way ticket to Iran but like a true hypocrite does not find any wrong in the Tour conductor of Demavand Tours operating Trips to Iran. So when it suits, we talk of Iran a place of origin and conduct tours but when talk of following their practices, it becomes a taboo.
    Another moronic question raised by your ‘well’ wisher Phiroze is how can one stop entry of converts to our places of Worship. Well are we not doing the same preventive measures now? And by the way do we not find ‘workers’ in Fire Temples of mix breed?. Does Phiroze have Navjote certificate and birth certificate of such Fire Temple workers.?
    I am not in favour of blanket conversion as misunderstood but if a Christian owing allegiance to English Church could be inducted into our faith at 81 years of age, why not children of Parsee mothers if the concerned father has no objection?.
    Lastly, please enlighten me what exactly is the difference between the actions of those Priests who have not been defrocked despite performing Wadia Navjote and Uthamna of JRD at Doongerwadi and the acts of likes of Mirza and Madon.
    I and you are living in free India and paper bullies can issue one way ticket to Iran only in their dream after having “nav tak bevda’ too many.
    I fully agree that our community cannot afford controversies considering its numbers and for that reason would be more than happy if a via media is worked out so that all such issues can be buried for ever.One must learn to be accomodative of feelings and urges of others instead of saying that “you build you own institutions’ as if those who say so are intending to carry such mundane brick and mortar to nether world after bidding good bye in present birth.
    Warm wishes,
    Regards,
    Zerxes.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    Behroze – who certifies for the intelligence of the 1000 signatories. Just because there are 1000 signatories does not make them intellectual. I have doubts about your intelligence with your statement. Do you know these 1000 signatories to vouch for their intelligence. Lets talk sense and not nonsense.
    Kanga – Lets face it my friend. You people are responding to them which makes them more important. Thanks for the complement.
    Dhongee – Can you define valid email address ? Anyone can create 10 dhongi email ids and still be valid. Lets not waste time posting nonsense.
    It takes 2 hands to clap and i notice people getting personal and the other reacting. Lets keep this forum issue based and not get in to mud slinging.
    We all belong to a community that is well respected the world over. Why are we indulging in these arguments.
    We have not met nor know each other and there is so much venom in our post ( used the word ‘our’ to be fair ).

  • Behroze.

    Mr. .Arzan Ghadially,
    You feel that I am not competent to what you say ‘certify’ intelligence of one thousand persons. So according to you these signatories are intellectally bankrupt. Fine, who will CERTIFY your OWN INTELLIGENCE?
    Mr. Ghadially.
    Now you decide who. is posting nonsense with imagination running riot.

  • Behroze.

    It would be correct to say as Ghadially does that’Just because there are 1000 signatories does not make them intellectual” but over 1100 signatures implies and does imply suppoert. If one goes by the theory of Ghadially then all those who participated as Voters in BPP elections did NOT MAKE RIGHT CHOICES AS THEY WERE NOT INTELLECTUALS OR INTELLIGENT. Go on shooting yourself in your foot.

  • Raksh

    Contra – Dhongi,

    As per Wikipedia “The Contra is a label given to the various rebel groups” and Dhongi is translated as clown. That makes you a Rebellious Clown! Why do you want your comments to be printed in Jame Weekly when you have often termed it as a weakly? Are not Parsiana and Bombay Samachar sufficient avenues to publicise your dhongee thoughts?

    To answer your questions comparing Areez Khambatta to Kersee Kabraji is like comparing oranges to apples, literally. We all know that Khambatta manufactures Rasna Orange but Kabraji is nowhere close to an apple. Both their surnames start from “K” and there ends the similarity. Areez bhai is a friend of the Parsi community doing lots for its welfare wheras Kabraji is hell bent on splitting it. Areez bhai is doing all he can in his individual and collective capacity to preserve and strengthen religious traditions wheras Kabraji is doing all he can in his individual and collective capacity to destroy everything religious that our forefathers strived, achieved and died for. We can encourage Areezbhai to comment and help the BPP to function as he spends his own money and donates to various charities including BPP. I am not aware of any charitable act done by Kabraji from Pune even in Pune. As regards the latest online petition, though the list is moderated I see the same names repeated twice one after the other. Why havent the moderators bothered to remove the duplicates. I keep forgetting that even the moderator must be a “ghost”. As per Mumbai Mirror report the petition has so far collected 1150 signatures from ghosts, duplicates and living entities all put together. This is against a Parsi population of 60,000. Therefore simple logic tells us that 58,850 Parsis are AGAINST the petition. I assume you possess a calculator and can calculate the percentage of the tribe that supports your dhongee ideas. So much for your “rational” thinking.

  • Phiroze

    Dear Hormuz,
    Let us examine how rational and sensible Zerxes is:

    1. Following religious practices of Iran where the religion is dead is same as conducting Tours (Business) Very rational.
    2. He feels that doing the Navjote of “ONE” christian man born of PArsi father is the same as “MANY” children of non Parsi fathers. And once that is allowed the same preventive measures will work? Very sensible indeed.
    3. He who has not contributed to the building of these institutions wants to change the trust deeds of those who built them to be accomodative of others URGES. ie Bijana paisa thi sakhavajute. Wah wah.
    Maybe we should get him a one way ticket to Mars instead

  • Phiroze

    Thrity N Madon, why did Moos and Madon not do the navar of the Russian in Russia? They had done navjotes in CIS countries and no Parsi had objected.

    You are right Parsees are a race and their institutions like Agiaries and Doongerwadis are PRIVATE. Non Parsi zoroastrians (as Madon says) are not allowed entry which your Madon and Moos want.

  • Behroze.

    Never knew that faqther of Neville Wadia was a Parsee professing Zoroastrianism. Phiroze can now rewrite history/geneology.

  • Contradhongi

    RAKSH:
    At the outset, your issue was why a person from Pune should intervene in a matter relating to Mumbai. Hence my counter question to you was why you had no issues with an Amdavadi interfering in affairs of Mumbai. As you may be aware this Amdavadi is not a part of local Amdavad Parsee Punchayet. Instead of answering logically or rather admitting that you had no answer to your double standards, you have opted of supposedly easy way out of name calling – calling me a clown. You may note that persons like you earlier called me a dhongee because of their impaired eye sight in reading the prefix to dhongee viz contra. Then thosefeku scholars resorted to calling me and others Deformists. Those feku scholars/ Aviary proponents have long disappeared into oblivion and if you assume that by indulging in diatribes you will succeed in eliminating me from this portal, you are in a paradise of those whom I do not wish to mention. You are free to admire that Amdavadi because these days people prefer imitation jewels over real gold. You are also free to worship moneybags or even Rasputin but do not try to intimidate me by your ‘culture’ language as it demonstrates your intellectual emptiness. I understand that WAPIZ too wants to collect signatures in support of BPP’s action of litigation. I trust that such a collection of signatures of ‘intellectuals’ will include their respective Telephone Nos, Mobile Nos, Address Proof and even PAN Nos. so that person like me have no scope to call them as ghosts signatories. And may you and your tribe succeed in collecting 58.850 genuine signatures with or without the aid of Casio Calculator. But if WAPIZ can get, by hook or by crook, 2000 signatures on the proposed petition,will it imply that the remaining Parsees oppose their proposed petition? BTW how many Parsees in all voted in 2 BPP Elections. Was it 58.850? Do not attempt to confuse and distort issues with everybody. The constituency which can be swayed by such rhetoric as yours,is available only in meetings held at F.C. Hall Dhobhi Talav.

  • crusader

    I have read a few comments here and can only get one thing out of it.
    – It is a waste of funds to be defrocking some priests.
    – It is a better and wiser option to use these funds towards education of parsis rather than spending it on bribing ‘babus’ to ban two priests.
    – Parsi religion is about following your heart and mind and not about sitting in front of a diva and chanting “ashem vahu” all day long.
    – Good Words,Good Thoughts & Good deeds are our religion’s principles. Nothing has ever been enforced on parsis.
    – Ahura Mazda didn’t allow it to happen in Iran, why the hell should we let a bunch of “chors” at the parsi panchayat do it. Who gave them the right to be the ONE & ONLY DIVINE BODY?
    – All the parsis who go for these BPP free lunches at allbless and cama baug and feast there are nothing but a bunch of puppets. I haven’t been to one but as we parsis say “khali laal karech potani” would be the right thing to say about this.
    – Follow our Zoroastrianism, respect other religions.
    – Use these funds for a better cause and not to defrock people who are living with the Zoroastrian philosophy of Humata Hukata Huvarashta!

    So there is no point in arguing with these bunch of CHORS, instead stop them from embezzling funds and using them to build palatial houses with Zarathustra statues only left at the mercy of a mere pigeon. wake up people, wake up bawajis!

  • Rathestar.

    CAN ANY BODY TELL ME THE DOCUMENTARY SOURCE WHICH PROVIDES FOR:
    1) “ELEVATION OF PRIESTS TO “HIGH” PRIESTS AND THE PROCEDURE THEREFOR?

    2) TEXTURAL REFERENCE TO SOLAR PANELS AND HOW THEY CAN BE A PART OF OUR “TRADITIONS & TENETS”

    3) NAMES OF PERSONS (IF PARSEES) WHO OPERATE SUCH SOLAR PANELS IN BOMBAY.

    4) What was the penalty imposed on the Panthaky of the Fire Temple who authorized consigning the corpse to Towers of Silence of a lady who had a Hindu name. This lady was having her Panthak at this Patkar Rad Fire Temple. Ignorance of law is no excuse.

  • Kanga.

    The suggestions for verification of authenticity of signatures made by Contrdhongi is laudable. Not only will it remove scope for doubts about the genuineness of the signatures but also put an end to some persons compelling their better/worse halfs from disowning the signature once placed.

  • farzana

    Crusader,
    Why should we stop BPP trustees from wasting trust funds on useless litigations to satisfy their personal ego?… Let them waste as much as they want..Let them empty the coffers…Let them pay Two lacs per day to Singhvi.and Rohtagi.Inevitably they are sealing their fate, even if they succeed in their Appeal… With empty coffers, they will be rendered toothless, spineless and pride less …Na rahega Baans na bajegi bansuri…Once BPP loses its relevance and its money power.. in no time Shiv Sena and MNS will start encroaching flats in Parsi Colonies…Don’t think its not possible, anything thing is possible in a democracy where numbers matter…Just read the matter about Ranina Nursery, rumor has it that some builder is eyeing the property. Everyone knows -Parsi is a dying community… Get ready for a roller coaster ride into reality…

    This is not the first time that Ahura Mazda is showing empty pride its place…Way back in 8th century Persian Army was decisively defeated by an Arab army which was not even half its size and led by an inexperienced general…Call it divine justice against Sassanians who just like unscrupulous WAPIZ THUGS were using Ahura Mazda’s name to cover up their misdeeds. Just look what happened of King Yazdegird III, he was captured by Arab soldiers starving under a tree and beheaded after being pronounced -a kafir…His daughters were raped and sold in Arab slave markets…And his son had to flee to China… All his pride shattered… When he was the Shah of Iran, he used to refer to himself as ‘A DIVINE RULER’ and the only representative of Ahura Mazda’ … Haaahaaa didn’t I tell you, all these so called ‘REPRESENTATIVES of GOD’ have a similar fall by the DIVINE DISPENSATION of the same GOD !! Wait and watch Sharbatwala Khambatta is on the same list… Then comes pseudo self style scholar Khojestee Mistree and his lickers…followed by parasite Parsis living in Parsi colonies on charity AND DOLES. Close family members of both are married out of faith and so are sister and daughter of ‘Social Worker’ Trustees. More than ever, the absence of a Legal mind on B.P.P. board is now being acutely experienced.

    Actually there is more common between Sharbatwala Khambatta of Ahmedabad and Yazdegird III…Both are/were supported by double dealing ‘HIGH’ Dastoors … both fund/funded fundamentalist clergy coteries in lieu of support to their hallucinations of grandeur…both wasted public money/trust funds mindlessly on useless battles with opponents that left coffers empty …And after tasting his first defeat with Arabs in Iraq, Yazdegird wrote a letter calling the victorious Arab king as a ‘lizard eater’ and provoked him by sending a larger army contingent to the borders to fight arabs… Just the way ‘intellectuals’ at WAPIZ are repeating the history after 1400 years !! I do not remember when I first heard of the quote” Them, who God wish to destroy, – He first makes them mad!”

    For many years now the Parsis have turned mad
    with their ego and their money power…Some brainless bawas even live under a delusion that only they are chosen by Ahura Mazda as ‘keepers of faith’!! haaahaaa… No Matter what they say — those who do not practice the discipline of “GOOD THOUGHTS , GOOD WORDS, GOOD DEEDS” ARE NOT ZOROASTRIANS.

    The religion will go on long after the Parsi tribe is no more than a minor line in the encyclopedia…

  • khoremand

    Contradhongi,
    Do not get perturbed by what a dhongidox RAKSH says. He says you are a rebel. Arent you a rebel against Dhongees pretending to be Religious minded and Orthodox. Just try reversing RAKSH and you will get SHKAR roughly – Sahukar and don’t be too surprised but one Karl Sahukar who is known to do identical hogwash about importance of ‘High Priest’ on Face Book could be the same person as Raksh…Or may be its mistaken identity… either way who cares… and since both talk nonsense, it is established beyond doubt that inbreeding is catching up with the ostriches in the community… Here is the WAPIZ toon character- http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=142693992412959&topic=131

    He is also a living examples to show how Rasna Orange & Apple cocktail can damage brain cells and induces bi polar disorder when he claims that Areezbhai is doing CHARITY for the community. Never knew that free food distribution to gluttons meant Charity. IT IS CALLED FREE FOOD FOR VOTE SCAM.
    Probably by charity Raksh meant ‘Ashodad’ packets doled out by this Amdavadi show off to these High Priests. Next question, which Religious Book suggests Jashan Ceremony of 101 Priests, some of whom are snoring. Is this public and vulgar display of largesse called CHARITY?

    Than he drifts into forefathers sacrificing their lives for the religion… What sacrifice is he talking about? In 2004 a study was conducted on Parsi mitochondrial DNA (matrilineal) and compared it with that of the Iranians and Gujaratis. The result showed that Parsis are genetically closer to Gujaratis than to Iranians. What does that have to tell us?? Either the migration from Iran is totally fabricated piece of tale from Qissa e Sanjan written by an inebriated Rasna drinker in 15th century…or the whole notion about purity of race is piece of figment of imagination of a person with inherited insecurity. Either way the only people who really sacrificed to stay Zoroastrians have been Iranians and Kurds…

    Oh!! well regarding his baloney about ‘High Priests’ well… their current rate for performing Ashirwaad is Rs. 3,000/- The same done by ordinary priest is less than half. High Priest like Kotwal (resides in a flat in Cusrow baug worth Rs. 2 crores)for doing Navjotes of those like Wadias gets a hefty ASHODAD And Ervad Khushroo Madon does it for few HUNDRED… So that is the main difference between ‘High Priest’ and non high priest. If Khushroo Madan is defrocked for the identical deed as Kotwal has done before him, then we should float a petition seeking defrocking of Kotwal too under the same ground and cause seeking eviction of his flat from Cusrow baug too for which he allegedly pays a princely rent of Rs 1/ Rs.ONE… and simultaneously receives life time monthly pension of Rs. 15,000/ (not taking into consideration loss of interest on the Deposit amount that another Bawa would have paid for non interest bearing deposit.)

    Than we have another clown on the blog-Arzan J Ghadially …according to him the HC judge had no knowledge about Z’ism hence the judgement is flawed… Now will our legal eagle Arzan J Ghadially show us in which book /scriptures does it say that Zoroastrianism is for Parsis only? and converting to it out of freewill is a sin? Also what do the same book say about practising Dokhma method in absence of scavenger birds at Doongerwadi ? Where does the same book recommend the use of Solar Panels to semi cremate the corpses? Why no steps have been taken to start the Aviary? huh? Enlighten us, please.

    After writing the tenth mail on this PK blog in a week, with the same recycled nonsense he finally shows signs of going totally berserk by saying- “Our Religious heads are also against such priests who will do anything for money.” The joke of the day is these religious heads themselves charge a bomb to chant simple prayers… and as remarked above they also charge in way of flats in Cusrow Baug… These so called Religious authorities criticizing Mirza and Madon, are fine example of ‘pot calling kettle black’.

    Of cause finally Mr Rumbling Mumbling ends his ranting with a memorable B grade dialogue -‘start chasing the elephant and stop chasing the mouse.’… fine, lets start chasing ‘High”Kotwal. Example is definitely better than preaching.

    Btw, a genuine Orthodox Sethia passed away a few months back. He was a true Orthodox and a Trustee of many Trusts including Fire Temples. May his soul rest in peace. Now his son, who is married to a non Parsee is taking his place. I wonder if he qualifies as a mouse or an elephant?

  • Burzin

    Farzana, your post does not make any sense.

    With the grace of Ahura mazda the BPP’s coffers will not go dry by fighting a worthy case.

    Though one thing I can surely say that the ability to think right (for few members of our community) is surely running dry.

    And of all things please do not speak ill about our last Sassanian Padshah Yazdegird Sheheriar.

    Khoremand, our forefathers made great sacrifices to ensure that we have a distint identity today. It greatly pains me (as well as other right thinking Parsis) when you undermine their struggles.

    (for god’s sake people lets please have pride in ourselves and our past)

    Remember that our forefathers who landed at sanjan over 1,300 years back definitely did something correct to ensure that we are still surviving as a race and religion even today. Some of the other tolas that went to China (prince Pirooz) and other lands did not survive – they assimilated completely.

    Let’s ask ourselves what we can now do to ensure that our race and religion lasts for the next thousand years and beyond?

    The answer is to uphold our traditions and way of life. Look to the future and take pride in our past.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    On very few occasions, a reasonable voice emerges in the small galaxy of Zoroastrian cyberspace. I want to compliment Arzan and Hormuz for approaching contentious issues within the community with civility and basic human decency. Arzan, I cannot agree with you more when you say that there is no need for so much venom being spewed amongst people who do not know each other and probably will never set eyes on one another. You are right about the needless mudslinging that must stop in a community that prides itself as being enlightened, cultured, and well educated.

    Now, I am not in your camp. My views on our religion are diametrically opposed to what you hold. My purpose then in writing is to see if we can learn from each other and do so in a dignified manner. No one is going to effect a change in issues confronting the community by posting their views on Parsikhabar, Facebook or any such medium so the barrage of rude responses from any poster that may follow this are unnecessary.

    I am a little bewildered by your stance on the Madon/Mirza episode. I gather you are opposed to their actions as, per your understanding, it violates the tenets of the religion. I do not believe it does. These two dasturs acted in accordance with the teachings of our prophet and did the right thing. The Gathas are clear that the message that Zarathustra brought to the world is for all humanity. No, I am not a Gatha scholar, but am well versed in what they convey. There are those in your camp who will argue that the Gathas cannot be relied upon as they are of antiquity and the translations and meanings come from non-Zoroastrian European scholars. In reality, many Zoroastrian Gatha scholars offer similar explanations. One does not have to be an expert in English literature to understand Shakespeare. A well-read and reasonably educated person with a modicum of intellect can understand what the bard is trying to say. And so with the Gathas. If one fails to grasp the well-translated hymns by myriad scholars then that is indeed another story. However, if we dismiss the Gathas, then what is the basis, the foundation, of our religion? Those on your side are quick to point to the entire world that the other side is wrong. However, not once have they provided an intellectual argument WHY the other side is wrong.

    I do not support the notion that dasturs Madon & Mirza should be excused because of what Dastur Kotwal did. The two are dissimilar. Dasturjis Madon and Mirza should not be penalized at all, because they did the right thing for the right reasons. Their actions were in line with Zarathustra’s teachings. Dastur Kotwal also did the right thing, but for the wrong reason. I do not endorse the double standard, but that is not the point of this discussion.

    If we, in this faction, support our position with historical evidence, scientific fact or scriptural proof then the expert whose work is put forward becomes a heretic, a rogue, and a renegade. A defense of the conservative position would carry some weight if they could provide a sound argument instead of rude labels. Occasionally, someone on the opposite side will say tradition must not be shaken. The eminent Dasturji Maneckji Nusserwanji Dhalla says this in his magnum opus “History of Zoroastrianism”: “…tradition is stagnant, and knowledge is ever on the onward move. Besides, tradition is wedded to the time that is dead, and knowledge looks to the time to be born without end. Moreover, tradition demands its instruction to be taken on trust, while knowledge is based on inquiry and discussion.”

    Why would anyone want to believe that only in India the practice of Zoroastrianism is in its true form? How does one arrive at that conclusion? In fact, in India, Zoroastrianism has morphed into a form far from the original precepts of Zarathustra. We have incorporated quite a few Hindu beliefs in our own culture and traditions. How can anyone say that Zoroastrianism is dead in Iran or Azerbaijan? Zoroastrianism flourishes around the world and the pristine message of our prophet is preserved thanks to conversion efforts and individuals recognizing the powerful, practical teachings of our great religion. I was pleasantly surprised to see a report that there are 2.7 million practicing Zoroastrians worldwide. Doesn’t that make the orthodox proud?

    Why should anyone build their own institutions? Where is the harm in allowing converts to enter our temples? Who is hurt by accepting converts to the fold? How is the religion or the practitioner defiled by someone not born in the faith praying shoulder to shoulder with us? Ah, yes! The infamous trust deeds. Yes, one has the right to create a deed if one finances an enterprise, but to say that the deed is based on religious principles makes a mockery of our religion, because the religion does not proscribe anyone from following the faith or praying in a communal house of worship, deeds of trust notwithstanding.

    Then the meaningless argument crops up of why God sent Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed if the almighty wanted people to convert to Zoroastrianism. According to the questioners, there was no need of latter prophets if conversion was part of God’s plan. My question to that is: Why did God send Zarathustra? There was a religion in place (call it by whatever name you want) before Zarathustra’s time. Why would God want people to convert/reform from that religion to the one Zarathustra taught and preached? Maybe, there’s your answer. There are people who claim to know God’s plans. How does anyone know God’s plans? Where are those plans filed? Are those who claim to know divine plans on God’s planning committee? Share with us the minutes of the last meeting. Please!

    Yes, the conservative will refute the scriptures, demonize scholars and deny historical facts, because they don’t mesh with his illogical thinking. Zoroastrianism calls for wisdom in all walks of life; we refer to God as “supremely wise” and it would benefit our faith and followers if, as individuals, we apply wisdom to our beliefs and not wallow in warped concepts, superstition and prejudices.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    Meheryar – Thank you for your kind words.We all at one point or the other agree to disagree on various issues and we must do it within the framework of the issue related and not get personal. I am not against anyone perse but against a few people who are friends of the 2 priests who tried to fool the signatories by bring out the issue 75 lakhs spent by the BPP based on media reports and making them sign a petition thus gaining support for the 2 priests. There is a hidden agenda. They have an axe to grind with DM. When they could not given any answers they start getting personal which i feel should not be encouraged as people would react and the main issue gets diluted.
    I respect your views as much as you respect mine.

  • Rathestar.

    Meheryar,
    A Trust Deed does mention as to who would be the beneficiaries. But forget allowing non Parsees into Fire Temples, the legitimate Parsee Zoroastrian members are aggrieved more because of denial of funeral prayers if they choose to opt for mode other than rotting in pits. Why would they choose cremation. Is it not because burial facilities are not provided for. There is a large number of populace on the would side of sixties and are aware of the possibility of an option in form of chemical decomposition of the body. Much of the present controversy and heart burning and consequent controversies would have been buried so to speak if such an option is provided. Only an imbecile would say that the current ‘method’ is eco friendly. When the entire atmosphere near Spenta Apartments virtually stinks and is nauseating only a perverted mind would say that the ‘system is weakened’. There is no system. It is itself dead.Why these priests remain silent spectators that they now complain of injured innocence. If only an alternative were provided, much heart burning and passions would get attended.
    P.S. This is meant for Meheryar and not for any Bigot.

  • khoremand

    Meheryar Rivetna, well said. Those Parsis who call themselves ‘Choost Traditionalist’ will never question ‘conversion’ because historically Zarathusti religion spread to millions via conversion, peaceful or forced. In 60,000 years of Human existence its ridiculous to believe Zoroastrianism is the first religion for mankind. There were religions that were followed by millions which predates zoroastrianism…just as there are hundreds of sects and religions which are post Zoroastrianism…People living in various times make their choices of adopting and discarding religions according to their personal understanding. No body is suggesting proselytize by inducements as is being done by Christian Church, but how can anyone stop those who want to adopt Zoroastrianism by freewill?

    Those traditionalist who are questioning ‘conversion’ are either IGNORAMUS blind followers of Dhanshak WAPIZ culture or they are knowingly DISHONEST with themselves and with the world. According to me, most like Arzan, Burzin ,Raksh ,etc classify as Blind followers with no basic historical knowledge of their roots.They go blindly with whatever is told to them by some self style fekuchand scholar without showing any inclination to investigate the facts or applying their minds. If they are told conversion and acceptance is against the tenets of religion, they lap it up as truth, although such a claim are totally illogical to any rational mind. For such people, world starts and ends in Parsi Colony.Their only life mission is to preserve the colony flat inherited by them and live off doles since they know they have no real talent to earn it the hard way. While types like Khojeste Mistree who deliberately keep the truth from the people and spread misinformation and canards with the intent to misguide them are DISHONEST and they don’t even qualify as Zarathustis. On the whole both these kind love to deceive and mislead.
    One reason why this community is dying is not because of its decreasing numbers, but because it has become a stagnant pool of idleness. The hypocrites allow performance of Sacraments for first four days if the Parsee concerned is cremated abroad but if the poor soul happens to pass away in Mumbai or Surat,such sacraments can not be recited.Any person who says that C.D.’s of Towers are Silence are doctored is a liar and follower of Ahriman.

    Ive asked all those who believe ‘conversion’ to Zoroastrianism is barred to come forward and give scriptural evidence to attest their belief…but to date not a single soul has shown any credible evidence or put forth any verse that says Zoroastrianism is for chosen few and those not born of Zoroastrian parents can not accept Zoroastrianism out of freewill. This challenge still stays. Ive asked Arzan Gadially to furnish evidence of the same…considering he claims the Judges of HC were not qualified to talk of Zoroastrianism. Lets see how qualified he is. Let him establish his credentials

    If he or any of the other person here are not able to furnish scriptural evidence to prove Zoroastrianism bars Conversion, that will mean Vada Dastoor Kotwal , Dastoor Mirza and Madan have done nothing wrong…If they can, which I very much doubt, it will mean Vada Dastoor Kotwal will have to go first…in the manner Mr. Ghadially himself says- go after the elephant.

    Now Burzin, you say-“Khoremand, our forefathers made great sacrifices to ensure that we have a distinct identity today. It greatly pains me (as well as other right thinking Parsis) when you undermine their struggles.”
    Ive still not figured out what struggles you are talking about. You mean only Parsis have distinct identity, all the rest of the communities in the world don’t? Do you think Marathis, Gujaratis, Kashmiris,Bbhojpuris, Bengalis, , Punjabi,Tamils etc etc have not retained their DISTINCT identities? What is so distinct about Parsi identity that you crow about? Language- Gujarati (borrowed), Script – Gujarati Devnagiri (Borrowed); Dress- Gujarati (borrowed); Cuisine- Gujarati + Mughalai (borrowed), Rituals and Customs- Gujarati Hindu (borrowed); Festivals- Holi, Diwali and Nouroze.

    Iranians have a distinct identity even in LOOKS from their Parsi counterpart and they consider Parsis at par with Hindus. They even laugh it out when some Nazi bawa tells them Parsis have sacrificed and struggled to maintain purity of race and their gori chamree. Again, i ask, What sacrifice? what struggle? and what makes you so sure that you are a RIGHT thinking Parsi and all those who don’t agree with you are WRONG thinking parsis? According to me, you don’t even qualify as a ‘thinking’ parsi. Consider, i already gave you the result of research done in 2004 on Y-chromosomes of Parsis and that of Iranians and Indians, and it was found that Parsis are closer to Indians genetically than Iranians. What does that tell you about the so called ‘struggles’ and ‘sacrifices’ of forefathers?

    Next, you say- “Remember that our forefathers who landed at Sanjan over 1,300 years back definitely did something correct to ensure that we are still surviving as a race and religion even today. Some of the other tolas that went to China (prince Pirooz) and other lands did not survive – they assimilated completely.”

    Excuse me, but do you have any proof/chronicle record/eye witness account to show that our Parsi forefathers landed in Sanjan 1300 years ago? You call yourself a ‘right thinking Parsi’ and you’ve not even thought of examining whether this story has any substance before preaching it? Im not surprised by you holding ideals of WAPIZ so dearly. All those who lack ability of abstract reasoning are usually found supporting hollow Neo-Nazi ideological groups like KKK, VHP,SHIV SENA, AL QUIDA, WAPIZ …In character all these racist groups advocate supremacy of gene pool…and consider all who disagree with them as -‘WRONG THINKERS’.

    You say that Parsis have survived as an ethnic group and as Zoroastrians since 1300 years in India…So? even Hinduism has survived, even Buddhism has survived, even Sikhism has survived, even Jainism has survived and so has Islam and Christianity has..In fact they have thrived. Today you find Mosque in Udwada ! These religions have not only survived but they are also proliferating unlike Parsees because they are not shortsighted idiots like WAPIZITTES. And FYI, Zoroastrians have survived in Iran too…and that is because they have always propagated conversion to faith. Even today Zoroastrian fire temples in Iran are open to all who would like to connect to Ahura Mazda… And thanx to two Mobeds- Kamran Jamshidi and Koroush Aryana who have spread Zoroastrianism to the Russians years back and today its on its part of revival not just in Russia but in Kurdistan too besides Iran.

    Both these Mobeds are living in exile, they travel all across Europe propagating Zoroastrianism and risking their lives at times. Even today Iranians are becoming Zoroastrians in private and revival of Zoroastrianism is sending chill down mullah’s spin. Check the clip on you tube and bozorgbazghast website. Its thanx to the efforts of these selfless Mobeds that Zoroastranism will survive beyond the demises of stagnant PARSISM in India.

    You talk of taking pride in our past!! for that dikra, you need to first know your past from credible sources not from feku dhanshak scholars.

  • khoremand

    “When they could not given any answers ‘

    Mr Arzan J Ghadially are you running away because you have no answers to all that you have claim earlier? You said the judgement given by HC is wrong because the judges were not aware of Z’ism …I have asked you to prove that. Where is the proof that Z’ism bars conversion, and those 2 priests who are initiating conversion to it are going against the religion.
    You say you are only against those who were fooling about the cost of litigation…How can you be so sure of that? and why should we believe you when you said those 2 priest were doing irreligious deeds, but you are not able to prove their acts as irreligious when asked to furnish proof. WEREN’T YOU TRYING TO FOOL WITH US ? Run away coward…and rename yourself ARZAN LOUDMOUTHWALA

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Rathestar:

    I understand a trust deed mentions beneficiaries and the author of a deed has the right to do so. I object when it’s done in the name of religion, because there is nothing in our great religion that calls for excluding any human being from following the faith. When the right to deny someone entry to a temple or religious service not born in the faith is done in the name of religion, it makes a mockery of the religion and corrupts the basic principles of our faith. That is the point I am trying to get across.

    You make an extremely valid argument on the dokhma issue. This again goes back to my premise that we are so steeped in tradition and get so emotional about our beliefs that we lose track of what the religion actually says.
    I am a strong proponent of our mode of disposal of the dead. I believe it is an excellent system from a scientific point of view, as well as from a religious perspective as Zoroastrian principles embrace and embody laws of nature. However, we have failed the system and not the other way around. When I say “we” I mean as a society and not just as Parsis. The present conditions are deplorable and actually violate Zoroastrian tenets. A rotting corpse defies our religious principles. The acrid odor means air pollution. Pouring acid on a cadaver may decompose the flesh, but pollutes the earth and underground water as the waste products seep through the earth. How are we observing our religious principles of not defiling natural elements by such practices? Are we not going against our cherished beliefs? Over the centuries, we have absolved ourselves of many traditional practices as warranted by practical considerations. By clinging to archaic traditions, we are divorced from doing what is right and lose all sense of practicality.

    Why priests can’t perform Zoroastrian funerary services at the doongerwadi for those cremated or buried beats me. Common sense, which I find very uncommon in a segment of our community, tells me that God is not going to give me a pass key to his kingdom because some birds pecked upon my dead body. He is not going to plunge me into the depths of hell because I was cremated or buried. Our prophet has taught us that heaven or hell (if there are such things) depends strictly on my deeds on earth. Nothing else.

    It is foolish to prohibit priests from praying for one’s soul at the doongerwadi because the body was not disposed according to tradition. I personally do not believe that a priest mumbling incantations for my salvation will accomplish that. But that’s me. I see no point in denying a living being some solace and peace of mind if a priest prays for the departed regardless of how the body was disposed. Be it at doongerwadi or anywhere else. Why all the fuss about who can pray where and when?

    From where do the die-hard traditionalists get their cockamamie ideas? Will someone stand up and produce some scriptural evidence?

    Are the trumpeters of tradition hell bent on creating their own brand of Zoroastrianism and scorn the religion Zarathustra gave us?

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Arzan:

    Thank you for your response. I realize your unease with the petition defending dasturjis Madon & Mirza and the alleged misstatements about the cost of litigation the BPP incurred. Personally, whether the amount spent was Rs. 75 lakhs or not is immaterial. If the BPP spent Rs. 100 in legal fees, it was Rs. 100 too much. I am not sure that any of the petitioners or signatories have an ax to grind with the BPP chairman or any other trustee.
    The issue is these two priests acted in accordance with the teachings of our religion and no action against them can be justified. To move against them is to move against the religion as far as this matter is concerned.

    If those who share your view can produce an ounce of evidence that what they did was wrong, let them come forward with that proof. That call to come forward was made more than a year ago and no one has produced a scrap of evidence. If you feel I am wrong, you have to tell me why I am wrong and support your contention with authentic scriptural fact. “It is tradition,” is not an acceptable answer, because traditions are instituted at a certain time for a certain reason. (Please refer to my quote from Dhalla on tradition.) We do not observe all the traditions are grandparents and great-grandparents followed.

    On another post you have challenged the existence of Zoroastrianism in Iran. Why? I think Khoremand has provided very good evidence that the religion flourishes in our ancient homeland. In my line of work I meet many medical students from Iran. I strike up a conversation with them about my Iranian ancestry (also, my maternal great-grandmother was an Iranian), and they tell me about the revival of Zoroastrianism in Iran. I wear a Farohar around my neck and show it to them. I am told that the symbol is the most prominent symbol in Iran today. About a month ago, Time magazine had pictures of Iranian students wearing T-shirts with the Farohar embossed on the shirts. The renowned Iranian journalist Christiane Amanpour (formerly with CNN, now with ABC news) has a pen holder on her desk with the Farohar inscribed on it. Christiane is not Zoroastrian, but just trying to impress upon you how pervasive Zoroastrian thought is in Iran.

    See, Arzan. It is not enough for me to say Zoroastrianism flourishes in Iran. I provide verification for my statements. Can you tell me why you maintain that Zoroastrianism is dead in Iran? Any proof? Or is it just that you do not want to believe facts?

    It is not enough to respect each other’s views. That is important, but if we are intelligent people, we learn from each other and shed false concepts we hold dear. If you want to save and preserve the religion, then dispensing with baseless notions and beliefs becomes critical.

    Zoroastrianism will not disintegrate by adding converts to the fold, but its destruction will come, if it ever does, from false beliefs, practices, and ignorance persisting within the community.

  • Phiroze

    dear Meheryar,

    Pleased to read a post from you after a long time. If as you would have us belive the Parsis in India are doing all the wrong things, why are you wasting your time posting here?. Why do you want free entry into our private religious institutions? What is preventing you from building your own clubs? The Parsis are happy doing what they are here and have no problems with what you do in US or rest of the world. Your gathic knowledge and conversion talents would be much appreciated in Iran and Azerbaijan. Same about Moos and Madon. Parsis do not need them. Thank you.

  • Phiroze

    rathestar, who is stopping you from being cremated? Recently one of your ARZ friend Malegaum had his mother in law (may her soul rest in peace) cremated and all the prayers done. Why don’t you ask him for advice?

  • Phiroze

    khoremand, let me put your thesis in two sentences. Anyone can become a zoroastrian. Only those born of Parsi parents can become PArsi Zoroastrian and have right to enter PArsi religious institutions. Those who do not agree can do what they want in their clubs.

  • Rathestar.

    Mr. Phiroze,
    My message dated of 17th April was addressed to Meheryar and I have clearly mentioned as such at the end.
    “P.S. This is meant for Meheryar and not for any Bigot.”. Is it that simple English is incomrehensible to you or you want to confirm that you are a bigot.?
    I do not need any superfluous advice from you nor am I interested in discussing any thing with you. I assume you will now understand this.

  • Arzan J. Ghadially

    From the recent posts it seems that the discussions are getting very personal and rude. People are called Bigots and what not. just lets do what each one feels is right and leave the rest to God. i cannot change your mindset and you cannot change mine so why abuse each other.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze.

    Thank you for your words of encouragement. What am I doing here wasting my time? Yes, sometimes I wonder. The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced that you would rather see the religion fracture than make a serious effort to consider the error of your position on matters we discuss in cyberspace.

    I am willing to entertain the possibility that I may be wrong in my beliefs. Do you have the courage to do the same? I have supported my arguments with ample evidence from various disciplines. Can you intelligently discredit any of that? Intelligently, not emotionally. I have yet to see you produce anything of substance besides “deeds of trust” which are not worth the paper they are written on. I gave you recent evidence that those you deem “inappropriate” are freely walking in and out of agiaries with the blessings of the attending priests. Your ranting and raving is all for naught.

    Can you give me anything to chew on why I may be wrong? You told me to forget about “Gathas and Kathas.” I am willing to if you can give me something else to hang my hat on and why I should accept that. You have not come up with anything.

    You would rather stoke your vanity than make a concerted effort to preserve the principles our prophet has given us. Is your ego more important than our faith? You want people to blindly accept your brand of Zoroastrianism? Willingly if you can give logical reasons. Please don’t use the cliché: “You can take a horse to the water….” I told you once, this horse will drink from the pool, but the pool you want to drag me to is heavily polluted. The water is not potable. Clean it up and this horse will drink. Gladly!

    Unlike you, I am not willing to see the religion fragment. I am prepared to change my way of thinking if you can tell me why my viewpoint is wrong and you are right. I follow Zarathustra, so any explanation you offer must come from his teachings. You have disavowed his teachings (“forget the Gathas and Kathas”) because you put your pride before his message. It is futile to say you are a follower of Zarathustra and not practice what he preached.

    Now you know why I am here wasting my time.

  • Phiroze

    rathestar, the only thing I understand is you have skeletons in your closet hence hidding your real identity. I shall keep asking you uncomfortable questions and advice. You can call me anything you like.

  • Phiroze

    Dear Meheryar,

    I am very impressed with your verification of the thriving of the religion in Iran based on your wearing the Farohar and striking up conversations with a few Iranian medical students wearing T shirts with Farohar printed on them and Amanpour having a pen stand with the Farohar.

    No doubt you think that the Parsis who wear the Sudreh and Kusti 24 x 7 and say their compulsary prayers daily are doing it all wrong. You would rather we give up this tradition as it is outdated and start sporting the Farohar ONLY as it is done in Iran today!!!

  • farzana

    bigot (?b???t)
    — n
    a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

    Now tell us dear Arzan Ghadially, why the above definition of /Bigot/ doesn’t fit you? You assume that the judges are wrong, the 2 priests are wrong, the secular newspaper is wrong, Parsiana is at fault, and everyone here who disagrees with you, are wrong yet at the end of the day you could provide not even a single shred of evidence that YOU are right.
    Khoremand and Meheryar asked you to provide the proof that conversion to Zoroastrianism is forbidden. You have not shown us a single verse to demonstrate your belief. Right? You further extend your irrational hatred for 2 perfectly noble Priests who are offering prayers for those who opt for cremation. Why? may I ask you who are you to call it irreligious act? On what basis? As said by some that if B.P.P. were to provide an alternative like Chemical decomposition, no Parsee will opt for cremation. Are you and your ilk not supporting a dead system which is against the ethos of our Religion not to pollute since the defuncy ‘system’ emits foulest stench which is unbearable.
    Your book says -Dokhma method can not function if there are no animals or birds to feed on the dead. And its fully acknowledged by all concern that there are no birds to feed on the dead…therefore as per the same books its a sin to allow the dead to rot if the Dokhmenashini is not functional.
    Than on what ground were you justifying and supporting the ban on DASTOOR-Madon and Mirza? Even to the extent of supporting BPP’s Appeal in SC at the expense of the community funds? I can understand if you were paying from your own pocket.
    Khoremand pointed out that Vada Dastoor Kotwal has already done the Navjote of a Christian. Why didn’t we hear you condemning Kotwal the way you jumped in to condemn Madon and Mirza? Im not saying Kotwal has done anything wrong by initiating a Christian into Zarathushti religion but than nor has Mirza and Madon done any wrong. How come you stayed selectively quiet. Do you have a personal enemity with Mirza and Madon? Or are you a paid agent of some WAPIZ/BPP trustee? Either way, you have not come out with flying colours that you assumed you would.. I guess you too sense that very clearly, so you are looking for a respectable exit by claiming to be a victim of personal attacks here. Good try!! And finally saying -leave all to God. Yes, i agree with you. Leave it to God, and he has already put your foot in the mouth. BPP has lost the case in HC and SC has refused to admit their appeal, instead BPP is asked to negotiate a settlement with the other party. Who do you think is at advantage?

    P.S. I have often heard old mamaijee saying that those who lie and misguide; and those who come in the way of the prayers offered to the dead souls will find it impossible to find Chinvat Bridge on the day of their reckoning.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    When people on these posts and elsewhere questioned your ability to grasp concepts and understand simple language, I dismissed it is as frustration on their part with your stance on religious issues. My personal bias made me think that way. I am now beginning to realize they are right and you really have a problem comprehending plain language. You are so blinded by prejudice and in your zest to prove others wrong and belittle them, you end up making absurd statements and the one that is belittled is you.

    If you read my post of April 18 calmly and not with all your pent up emotion, you will see that my point about the Farohar was to illustrate that Zoroastrianism is not dead in Iran as you suggest. I said that Time magazine had a picture of Iranians with the Farohar on their T-shirts; I made no mention of the students I meet wearing such garments. An individual who thinks with a clear, reflective mind would understand that I was trying to draw attention to the fact that Zoroastrian concepts are well and alive in Iran, contravening your assertion of the demise of our religion there. If you find my simple example unsatisfactory, please let me direct you to a book called “A Zoroastrian Tapestry.” This book is edited by Pheroza Godrej and Firoza Punthakey Mistree (wife of Khojeste Mistree.) There are two chapters in the book (pg. 337-365 and 366-383) co-authored by Dastur Firoze Kotwal and Mr. Khojeste Mistree. Both chapters carry numerous photographs of priests performing jashans, navjotes and other Zoroastrian ceremonies in Iran in the not too distant past. Mr. Mistree has photographed these events. You may find the book in the cubby hole that Mr. Mistree occupies on the ground floor of the K. R. Cama Inst. Instead of making foolish statements that Zoroastrianism is dead in Iran, please take the time to research your premise and then present your arguments. I am sure Mr. Mistree will be glad to share with you his stories and pictures from his recent trips to Iran and tell you about Zoroastrianism in Iran today. Will you take the word of your two heroes, if not mine, that Zoroastrianism is well and alive in Iran?

    I have said nothing about wearing the sudreh/kusti and prayer being wrong or giving up that tradition. This is typical of you. Instead of making an effort to understand what your opponent is saying, you go into an attack mode, put words in his/her mouth, mangle the meaning of their words and accuse them of having an agenda. I really don’t think you have the capacity to engage in an intelligent discussion on religion in a dignified manner.

    I have not known you to present any argument on religion based on sound knowledge or express intelligently an opinion on this subject. It is all bluster, denial of facts, insolence towards those who possess knowledge, and disagreements without merit. And you accuse me of having an agenda? Since you claim to know my agenda, would you be so kind as to tell me what is my agenda?

  • Contradhongi.

    Farzana.
    You are right.Had the B.P.P Trustees the vision to start an alternative workable system for disposal of dead (with the option of retaining of existing defunct one) there would have been no instance of cremation and no Madon and no Mirza and so no ‘problem’, no ‘defrocking’. Ironically the Trustees of the past showed how weak kneed they were and allowed outsiders to bring ‘instructions’ signed on dotted lines by High Priests who allowed themselves to be manipulated by unscrupulous and charcterless dhongees/parasites. Thus these High Priests unwittingly became virtual Rubber stamps
    Spurred by being able to secure 6000 votes and becoming Trustees, these dhongees assumed that they have a mandate to enforce their dadagiri and reverse the clock back by 100 years. So the present predicament.
    On this blog itself I find a couple of individuals talk ‘ you set up your club’ as if they have a mandate to speak on behalf of the entire community. In the process they make a laughing stock of themselves.

  • Arzan J Ghadially

    My Dear Farzana,
    Thank you for confering the title of ‘a Bigot’ I will only react with a saying ‘When an elephant walks,Dogs bark but the elephants keeps walking as it makes no difference to him knowing that after some time the dog will tire out and stop barking’ so bark away lady . Should i suggest some more names?
    Everyone wants to showoff their knowledge from google.

  • Rathestar.

    Dear Meheryar Rivetna,
    Take my advice, you are wasting your time discussing with a closed mind who suspects everybody.Probably you would have heard the adage: PATTHAR PAR PANEE. When a person believes that his version alone is right and everybody else is wrong and compounds it by taliking as if he owns the majority section of the community, it certainly is a case of ACQUIRED INTELLIGENCE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME THE NEW DEFINITIONFOR A I D S in our community.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Rathestar,

    I know what you mean. Sometimes I do wonder if it’s worth expending all this time, banging my head against a brick wall. But there is a lot at stake. We cannot give up. It is very sad that a few people refusing to see truth are trying to hijack our great religion. They must be stopped. I can already see responses that it is we who are trying to hijack the religion and not they. They will accuse us of being wrong, but not substantiate their accusations with any legitimacy. They are punch drunk from the cup of ignorance. How can anyone who is heavily inebriated see straight and talk sense? He cannot. If you ask them to produce meaningful arguments, they cannot. In their drunken stupor, they can only spew nonsense. What else can you expect from one in such a state? We have to be patient. They will drink more from the cup of ignorance, call us names, ridicule us, mock us…all this we must endure. They denounce our scriptures, scoff at our religious history, and discredit facts that don’t suit them. That will continue. They may win small battles, don’t be disheartened; we shall win the war. I know you are frustrated, so am I. Let’s not give up.
    The great religion that our prophet gave us will prevail in the manner in which he intended—free of mendacity, full of righteousness and for all humanity!

  • farzana

    Yes, dear Arzan Ghadially , if you possess knowledge, you can show it off. If you don’t possess knowledge but only hot air, than you have no other choice but to pretend as an elephant.

    I take your reply to mean that you have no credible proof to prove all you had claimed earlier when you were playing the role of the dog here.

  • Adarbahman

    B.P.P. is making martyrs out of Mirza and Madon. In short time, thanks to stupidity of Trustees owing allegiance to WAPIZ, Mirza and Madon will get elevated to 21st Century Joan of Arc’s of Parsees. After all WAPIZ guys themseves have become ‘heroes’ out of Zer0es.

  • Arzan J. Ghadially

    Same to you Mr Rathestar. you and your band of imported reformists are no better. please dont associate yourself as ‘our’ community. There is no place for people like you and farzana in our community. Come on a platform for an open debate and i bet you and your band will be thrown out in no time. Its a challenge. Come out in the open and stop being a faceless paper tiger.
    Heed mt advice and stop getting personal and continue a healthy disucssion that is if you are from a cultured family and i am sure people will react in a positive and respect you views.
    I am sure Farzana has a mind of her won and can decide without people telling her how she has to conduct her posts.

  • Rathestar.

    @ Ghadially,
    At the outset my advice to Rivetna was NOT intended for you. I am stating this though I owe no need to clarify. It seems you have overlooked to read the name of the person whom Rivetna has addressed his message of April.20.
    I WILL CERTAINLY AND DEFINITELY USE THE WORDS “MY COMMUNITY” irrespective of your approving or disapproving the same since you are no authority and you do not have any Patent rights/ Trade Mark on how our community ought to conduct itself. Your beliefs do not constitute whole Parsi Community.
    You talk of coming on a platform. Yes Ghadially, BPP has not conducted a meeting after Dadar fiasco and it is alleged that microphones there were ‘managed’ to be switched off to avoid inconvenient questions. I am aware how brainless noise creators/ lumpen elements are placed in select corners at the venue of such meetings to shout down and drown differing voices. That is the concept of
    (a) Majority (b)freedom of thought and expression,
    such elements have disregarding the tenets of OUR Religion on freedom . That may be your concept of majority. You say I am faceless. WHAT MAKES YOU ANY DIFFERENT ON THIS BLOG? I CAN NOT SEE YOUR FACE HERE, CAN I?
    One day you preach about not getting personal, next day you yourself beach your ‘sage’ advice and get personal on behalf of somebody else who has been cornered. Unless of course you are comrade in arms with the person badly cornered.
    You would have surely noticed that I have not used Zoological language unlike you. Thats my upbringing.

  • Farsak.Ashli.

    One fruitcake here says that Fire Temples are ‘private Religious institutions’. If they are private then I wonder why these same fruitcakes want to rely on Trust Deeds. Obviously, when A Trust submits annual Budget to Charity Commissioner, then it is a Public Trust.
    Oft and on same persons refer to Trust Deeds. What puzzles me is that many of our Fire Temples are a century old but the Trust Act came into existence in 1950. So what governed these Fire Temples before India’s independence. I assume we had places of worship even during Mughal period i.e before the British set their feet on Indian Soil. Thus the question, what govern these establishments of Worship?

  • Farsak.Ashli.

    Mr.Arzan J. Ghadially.
    On the one side you express ‘continue a healthy discussion’. On the other hand you talk of muscle power, or so it sounds when you meancingly tell Rathestar that ‘Come on a platform for an open debate and i bet you and your band will be thrown out in no time’
    Is throwing out persons with differing thought pattern suggestive of hailing from a ‘cultured family’?

  • farzana

    Quote Arzan => “Same to you Mr Rathestar. you and your band of imported reformists are no better. please dont associate yourself as ‘our’ community. There is no place for people like you and farzana in our community.”

    Very respectfully and humbly, i would like to know if Vada Dastoor Kotwal is a part of YOUR community?

    Quote Arzan=> “Come on a platform for an open debate and i bet you and your band will be thrown out in no time.”

    Yes dear Elephant as soon as you have the SCRIPTURAL PROOFS and CREDIBLE EVIDENCES that we- [ Meheryar, Khoremand, Rathestar, Remi and myself ] had asked from you to support your position…You are free to broadcast it on the open forum in presence of all Vada Dastoors esp Kotwal….

  • Minocher Ardeshir

    Dear Sir,
    while the discussion is getting here too long and nasty, I have no interest in mud slinging. However I would like to point out to the fact that our respected Vada Dastoor K Jamaspasa and Vada Dastur Cyrus of Surat are both spotted without a beard. A clean shaven Priest is a grave disregard for the our Ashoi Tarikats that forbids Pav Mahal rites if the Priest makes a mistake of shaving his beard. Is this right? We unfortunately have modern crop of Vada Dastoors who break rules when it suits them. I am sure they show disregard for other Tarikats too in private if they show such blatant contempt for our principles in open. Do they really have rights to criticize others?
    I also would like to add, that no one, not even a Vada Dastoor has any right to judge others. Only Ahura Mazda has that right. And God doesn’t judge Vada Dastoors by a different yard stick.

    Thank You.

  • Anonymous

    Dear Sir, while the discussion is getting here too long and nasty, I have no interest in mud slinging. However I would like to point out to the fact that our respected Vada Dastoor K Jamaspasa and Vada Dastur Cyrus of Surat are both spotted without a beard. A clean shaven Priest is a grave disregard for the our Ashoi Tarikats that forbids Pav Mahal rites if the Priest makes a mistake of shaving his beard. Is this Right? We unfortunately have modern crop of Vada Dastoors who break rules when it suits them. I am sure they show disregard for other Tarikats too in private if they show such blatant contempt for our principles in open. Do they really have rights to criticize others? Does Ahura Mazda Judge a Vada Dastoor differently from the rest?

  • MinocherArdeshir

    Dear Sir, while the discussion is getting here too long and nasty, I have no interest in mud slinging. However I would like to point out to the fact that our respected Vada Dastoor K Jamaspasa and Vada Dastur Cyrus of Surat are both spotted without a beard. A clean shaven Priest is a grave disregard for the our Ashoi Tarikats that forbids Pav Mahal rites if the Priest makes a mistake of shaving his beard. Is this Right? We unfortunately have modern crop of Vada Dastoors who break rules when it suits them. I am sure they show disregard for other Tarikats too in private if they show such blatant contempt for our principles in open. Do they really have rights to criticize others? Does Ahura Mazda Judge a Vada Dastoor differently from the rest?

  • Byramsidhwa84

    Monicher, I would not like to call these old gentlemen as Modern

  • Byramsidhwa84

    Monicher, I would not like to call these old gentlemen as Modern

  • Byramsidhwa

    And BTW,Minocher what is your source of the Rule that Priests must have beards?

  • Byramsidhwa

    And BTW,Minocher what is your source of the Rule that Priests must have beards?

  • Anonymous
  • MinocherArdeshir
  • Behram. Sidhwa.

    Thank you very much Mr. M Ardeshir,
    By implication the concerned Priest can not perform Pav Mahal Ceremonies if he shaves his beard.Then I wonder how can a Priest be called HIGH if he is not performing Pav Mahal ceremonies since many of such High Priests are clean shaven which includes the Navsari Atasbehram affiliated Er. K.N. Dastur.

  • Behram. Sidhwa.

    Thank you very much Mr. M Ardeshir,
    By implication the concerned Priest can not perform Pav Mahal Ceremonies if he shaves his beard.Then I wonder how can a Priest be called HIGH if he is not performing Pav Mahal ceremonies since many of such High Priests are clean shaven which includes the Navsari Atasbehram affiliated Er. K.N. Dastur.

  • Barak Aga

    Dear Arzan,
    Hope you don’t mind me joining this debate.

    You have stated, “Same to you Mr Rathestar. you and your band of imported reformists are no better. please dont associate yourself as ‘our’ community”. sic

    “Reformists”.

    The line of defence taken by the orthodox / pseudo-orthodox is that Zarathustra did not convert anyone to a new faith. He merely REFORMED an already existing faith.

    So why not denounce prophet Zarathustra, and take offence to the reforms preached by him too, as according to the pseudo-orthodox he too was a “Reformist”?

  • Barak Aga

    Dear Arzan,
    Hope you don’t mind me joining this debate.

    You have stated, “Same to you Mr Rathestar. you and your band of imported reformists are no better. please dont associate yourself as ‘our’ community”. sic

    “Reformists”.

    The line of defence taken by the orthodox / pseudo-orthodox is that Zarathustra did not convert anyone to a new faith. He merely REFORMED an already existing faith.

    So why not denounce prophet Zarathustra, and take offence to the reforms preached by him too, as according to the pseudo-orthodox he too was a “Reformist”?

  • Arzan

    Please read my response again. What i meant was that the community would throw the lot of reformists out like it did at he time of elections wherin the entire lot of reformists were voted out. That is the power of deomcracy. Dont show of your misguided and distorted evidences.you are fooling no one but yourself.I am too small a person to compete with Google scholars like you for i do not possess the knowledge that you have gained googling.
    Inspite of scriptural prrofs and credible evidence you people are still struggling to gain a foothold within the community as no one is buying your ideologies. Till date refromists such as you have not succeded. Need any further proof. Ask the community.

  • Arzan

    Please read my response again. What i meant was that the community would throw the lot of reformists out like it did at he time of elections wherin the entire lot of reformists were voted out. That is the power of deomcracy. Dont show of your misguided and distorted evidences.you are fooling no one but yourself.I am too small a person to compete with Google scholars like you for i do not possess the knowledge that you have gained googling.
    Inspite of scriptural prrofs and credible evidence you people are still struggling to gain a foothold within the community as no one is buying your ideologies. Till date refromists such as you have not succeded. Need any further proof. Ask the community.

  • Arzan

    Dear Mr Farsak,
    At this moment i am ready to for a healthy and meaningful discussion but are all ready for this ? I am only reacting to the rude posts. If they are stopped there wont be a reaction.
    There is no muscle power involved. What it meant was come on a platform and the refoemists will be thrown out by the community not by me. I am sorry if my statement has been misunderstood.
    I respect you learned scholars of our community but you are not making any headway at all. Learn a lesson from the election results. The entire reftormists lot were voted out by the community and we must learn to respect democracy.
    I am against conversions, Non parsees visiting the agiary,Thread ceremonies being conducted by priests of children whose mother has married out side the community, I dont think anyone will approve a nonparsi in our agiary. It will spoil the purity of our agiary.

  • Arzan

    Dear Mr Farsak,
    At this moment i am ready to for a healthy and meaningful discussion but are all ready for this ? I am only reacting to the rude posts. If they are stopped there wont be a reaction.
    There is no muscle power involved. What it meant was come on a platform and the refoemists will be thrown out by the community not by me. I am sorry if my statement has been misunderstood.
    I respect you learned scholars of our community but you are not making any headway at all. Learn a lesson from the election results. The entire reftormists lot were voted out by the community and we must learn to respect democracy.
    I am against conversions, Non parsees visiting the agiary,Thread ceremonies being conducted by priests of children whose mother has married out side the community, I dont think anyone will approve a nonparsi in our agiary. It will spoil the purity of our agiary.

  • Farsak Asli

    Arzan,
    How do you justify the presence of Chasniwallas and Saaf Safai Kamgars in Fire Temples who are apparently progeny of mixed marriages. Do the Agiary Panthakies satisy himself about parentage of such youngsters. Do the presence of such youngsters not affect the ‘purity’ of Fire Temples?Do not misconstrue that I am advocating active conversion. All that I am saying is that such things have become order of the day, so to say because of circumstances over which neither you not I have any control. ALL THAT I AM OBJECTING TO IS DOUBLE YARDSTICKS.
    In fact in one Fire Temple where I usually go and which has many devotees every day has employed non Parsees for washing utensils used in Afringan etc though these are being washed by non Parsees in the adjoining toilet room and not in the Main Fire Temple premises.
    Many have asked a question agitating their minds as to who is operating the Solar Panels?
    You say that you are ready for meaningful discussions, though neither you nor me can decide the issues. All of us are trying to express our feelings/ Opinions.The attitude of some having views identical to yours has been downright offensive when they utter “I AM PURER THAN YOU AND BECAUSE YOU (LIKE ME) POINT OUT DOUBLE YARDSTICKS WE HAVE SOME ONE MARRIED OUSIDE THE COMMUNITY. This presumptive approach is nothing but laughable and demonstration of utter ignoranceof self styled orthodox. People like me do not make allegations in the hope of silencing others.

  • Farsak Asli

    Arzan,
    How do you justify the presence of Chasniwallas and Saaf Safai Kamgars in Fire Temples who are apparently progeny of mixed marriages. Do the Agiary Panthakies satisy himself about parentage of such youngsters. Do the presence of such youngsters not affect the ‘purity’ of Fire Temples?Do not misconstrue that I am advocating active conversion. All that I am saying is that such things have become order of the day, so to say because of circumstances over which neither you not I have any control. ALL THAT I AM OBJECTING TO IS DOUBLE YARDSTICKS.
    In fact in one Fire Temple where I usually go and which has many devotees every day has employed non Parsees for washing utensils used in Afringan etc though these are being washed by non Parsees in the adjoining toilet room and not in the Main Fire Temple premises.
    Many have asked a question agitating their minds as to who is operating the Solar Panels?
    You say that you are ready for meaningful discussions, though neither you nor me can decide the issues. All of us are trying to express our feelings/ Opinions.The attitude of some having views identical to yours has been downright offensive when they utter “I AM PURER THAN YOU AND BECAUSE YOU (LIKE ME) POINT OUT DOUBLE YARDSTICKS WE HAVE SOME ONE MARRIED OUSIDE THE COMMUNITY. This presumptive approach is nothing but laughable and demonstration of utter ignoranceof self styled orthodox. People like me do not make allegations in the hope of silencing others.

  • Farsak Asli

    Arzan, I do not know about your popularity but I am certain that if I choose to stand for elections of B.P.P., I will lose. Let me be candid for I can not afford to wine & dine the electorate.
    Perhaps even if you or those who hold identical beliefs may also not get elected. Does that mean that people do not ascribe to your views??
    Election results were for managing the Trust property and the B.P.P. Trust deed does not allow religious interference. So why bring this Election story in picture. Are you still harbouring a belief that B.P.P. can have a say in Religious Affairs as per its Trust Deed. On one side persons like you talk of observing sanctity of Agiary Trust Deeds but for B.P P.. Trust Deed persons like you want to exceed the vested powers.

  • Farsak Asli

    Arzan, I do not know about your popularity but I am certain that if I choose to stand for elections of B.P.P., I will lose. Let me be candid for I can not afford to wine & dine the electorate.
    Perhaps even if you or those who hold identical beliefs may also not get elected. Does that mean that people do not ascribe to your views??
    Election results were for managing the Trust property and the B.P.P. Trust deed does not allow religious interference. So why bring this Election story in picture. Are you still harbouring a belief that B.P.P. can have a say in Religious Affairs as per its Trust Deed. On one side persons like you talk of observing sanctity of Agiary Trust Deeds but for B.P P.. Trust Deed persons like you want to exceed the vested powers.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Arzan,

    I trust you read my post on “A question of trust, a matter of faith” where I asked if you would be willing to have a healthy discussion, as you put it.
    I do not believe there are many “scholars” here from Google University, but most of us are reasonably well versed with scholarly works. When arguments are presented, they are generally from the works of renowned Zoroastrian scholars such as Mary Boyce, Lawrence Mills, and James Moulton to name a few among many other giants. I would also like to add the names of Ervad Kavasji Edalji Kanga, Ervad Jivanji Jamshedji Modi and Ervad Maneckji Nusserwanji Dhalla to that list. These Ervads are stalwarts of Zoroastrianism.

    If, like some others, you also question the validity of European scholars, I would like to remind you that your arch conservatives Dastur Firoze Kotwal and Mr. Khojeste Mistree have studied under Mary Boyce, and proudly claim so, and reference numerous European scholars in their own writings. If, according to you, these European scholars have no merit, then it would stand that Kotwal and Mistree have no merit in their own scholarship. The three dastur scholars I mentioned above have stated that they owe an invaluable debt to European scholars in their study and understanding of Zoroastrianism. Are you still willing to have an intelligent, healthy discussion? Please read my other post before you answer.

    I do not understand your objection to conversion, and navjotes of children of Parsi women married to non-Parsis, etc. I trust you do not have your head buried in the sand, because navjotes of such children are being performed every day and these children of mixed marriages are entering our fire temples, as they can and must, whether you like it or not.

    What do you mean by spoiling the purity of an agiary? From your knowledge of Zoroastrianism, you must know from the Gathas that Ahura Mazda asked Zarathustra to spread his message across the world. Zarathustra’s message and teachings are for all of humanity. Can you intelligently identify where in our scriptures it states that conversion is not permitted? Keep in mind, I am not talking about forceful conversion; I am talking about people who, of their own free will, want to follow our faith. Let’s boil it down to just children of mixed parentage who want to follow their mother’s religion, for now.

    Barak made an excellent point. Why not hold it against Zarathustra for reforming an existing religion? You mislabel us as reformists; we are merely trying to bring back and practice Zoroastrianism as given to us by our prophet. It is you and your camp who are reformists, trying to corrupt our religion to accommodate your prejudices.

    I will ask you the same stupid question I have been asked in a different way. Why did Ahura Mazda send Zarathustra to convert a nation that already had a religion if the Almighty was opposed to conversion?

    Will await your intelligent and healthy response.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Arzan,

    I trust you read my post on “A question of trust, a matter of faith” where I asked if you would be willing to have a healthy discussion, as you put it.
    I do not believe there are many “scholars” here from Google University, but most of us are reasonably well versed with scholarly works. When arguments are presented, they are generally from the works of renowned Zoroastrian scholars such as Mary Boyce, Lawrence Mills, and James Moulton to name a few among many other giants. I would also like to add the names of Ervad Kavasji Edalji Kanga, Ervad Jivanji Jamshedji Modi and Ervad Maneckji Nusserwanji Dhalla to that list. These Ervads are stalwarts of Zoroastrianism.

    If, like some others, you also question the validity of European scholars, I would like to remind you that your arch conservatives Dastur Firoze Kotwal and Mr. Khojeste Mistree have studied under Mary Boyce, and proudly claim so, and reference numerous European scholars in their own writings. If, according to you, these European scholars have no merit, then it would stand that Kotwal and Mistree have no merit in their own scholarship. The three dastur scholars I mentioned above have stated that they owe an invaluable debt to European scholars in their study and understanding of Zoroastrianism. Are you still willing to have an intelligent, healthy discussion? Please read my other post before you answer.

    I do not understand your objection to conversion, and navjotes of children of Parsi women married to non-Parsis, etc. I trust you do not have your head buried in the sand, because navjotes of such children are being performed every day and these children of mixed marriages are entering our fire temples, as they can and must, whether you like it or not.

    What do you mean by spoiling the purity of an agiary? From your knowledge of Zoroastrianism, you must know from the Gathas that Ahura Mazda asked Zarathustra to spread his message across the world. Zarathustra’s message and teachings are for all of humanity. Can you intelligently identify where in our scriptures it states that conversion is not permitted? Keep in mind, I am not talking about forceful conversion; I am talking about people who, of their own free will, want to follow our faith. Let’s boil it down to just children of mixed parentage who want to follow their mother’s religion, for now.

    Barak made an excellent point. Why not hold it against Zarathustra for reforming an existing religion? You mislabel us as reformists; we are merely trying to bring back and practice Zoroastrianism as given to us by our prophet. It is you and your camp who are reformists, trying to corrupt our religion to accommodate your prejudices.

    I will ask you the same stupid question I have been asked in a different way. Why did Ahura Mazda send Zarathustra to convert a nation that already had a religion if the Almighty was opposed to conversion?

    Will await your intelligent and healthy response.

  • Rathestar,

    Correct, people need to learn that B.P.P Trustees are known as the Trustess for Trust & Properties NOT FOR RELIGION VIZ ZOROASTRIANISM.

  • Rathestar,

    Correct, people need to learn that B.P.P Trustees are known as the Trustess for Trust & Properties NOT FOR RELIGION VIZ ZOROASTRIANISM.

  • Rathestar,

    Correct, people need to learn that B.P.P Trustees are known as the Trustess for Trust & Properties NOT FOR RELIGION VIZ ZOROASTRIANISM.

  • Rathestar.

    Correct, the Trustees are naned as Trustees of Bombay Parsi PuchayetFunds & Properties NOT ZOROASTRIANISM.

  • Rathestar.

    Correct, the Trustees are naned as Trustees of Bombay Parsi PuchayetFunds & Properties NOT ZOROASTRIANISM.

  • Phirozepanthaki

    Dear Meheryar,
    As you are aware of my aversion to long never ending posts, I shall ask you just this: Do you see anything in these photos in the book that even remotely resembles what you grew up seeing in our religious institutions in India?. Maybe you did not go to as many religious institutions as i have. I think rationally and belive what I see and not take anyone’s word for it..

  • Phirozepanthaki

    Dear Meheryar,
    As you are aware of my aversion to long never ending posts, I shall ask you just this: Do you see anything in these photos in the book that even remotely resembles what you grew up seeing in our religious institutions in India?. Maybe you did not go to as many religious institutions as i have. I think rationally and belive what I see and not take anyone’s word for it..

  • Phiroze

    Dear Meheryar,
    You say I have disavowed Zarathustra Spitma’s teachings. But then what you know about them is some European’s translation who did not know the language or traditions.
    You say I want to fragment the religion. On the contrary I say let the Parsis do what we have been doing for hundreds of years, those who think otherwise are free to do their own and we shall see survives.

  • Phiroze

    Dear Meheryar,
    You say I have disavowed Zarathustra Spitma’s teachings. But then what you know about them is some European’s translation who did not know the language or traditions.
    You say I want to fragment the religion. On the contrary I say let the Parsis do what we have been doing for hundreds of years, those who think otherwise are free to do their own and we shall see survives.

  • Phiroze

    Well fruit fly the trust deeds were in existance from the time these were built and way before the charity commisioner’s office was established under the act of 1950. after 1950 they were registered with the charity commisioner an dsubject to audits. It did not change anything in the deeds just that the trusts were monitered. Enjoy the cake with the cherry on top.

  • Phiroze

    Well fruit fly the trust deeds were in existance from the time these were built and way before the charity commisioner’s office was established under the act of 1950. after 1950 they were registered with the charity commisioner an dsubject to audits. It did not change anything in the deeds just that the trusts were monitered. Enjoy the cake with the cherry on top.

  • Phiroze

    Dear Meheryar, All Zarathustra did was reorganise the religion of Ahura MAzda. There was no conversion. The Parsis have not permitted conversion since the time they set foot on Indian soil. It’s a tradition and transcendental law that we are happy to follow in our religious organisations. If anyone does not like it they are free to leave the community.

  • Phiroze

    Dear Meheryar, All Zarathustra did was reorganise the religion of Ahura MAzda. There was no conversion. The Parsis have not permitted conversion since the time they set foot on Indian soil. It’s a tradition and transcendental law that we are happy to follow in our religious organisations. If anyone does not like it they are free to leave the community.

  • Behroze.

    Despite the clear verdict that B.P.P. is a body meant to administer Trust & Properties and not religious affairs, it is really amusing to read the same repitiotion that Orthodox won the elections. Leaving aside the inducements to the electorate, like free booze & dinners, I would like to ask this ‘winner brigade’ about the family background of those who have been elected.
    .
    1. Brother & Sister of one are married out of the community and this elected Trustee is a founder member of Association of inter married Zoroastrian Ladies.
    2. Sister of another Trustee (who got elected upon demise of her husband) is married to a Jew and carried her converted sister to a Dadar Agiari;
    3) Brother of Messiah is married to a non Zoroastrian.
    4) Daughter of another Dadar based Trustee is married out of faith but is a frequent visitor to a Fire Temple- though I see nothing wrong in it.
    Do you guys still want to expose your ignorance or your intention is to hoodwink the readers here?
    If I go to the family life of certain HIGH clergy only further embarassment will result. So pl learn to stop hoodwinking the readers about the ‘triumph of orthodoxy’ in elections meant for administering Trust Funds & Prpoerties.

  • Behroze.

    Despite the clear verdict that B.P.P. is a body meant to administer Trust & Properties and not religious affairs, it is really amusing to read the same repitiotion that Orthodox won the elections. Leaving aside the inducements to the electorate, like free booze & dinners, I would like to ask this ‘winner brigade’ about the family background of those who have been elected.
    .
    1. Brother & Sister of one are married out of the community and this elected Trustee is a founder member of Association of inter married Zoroastrian Ladies.
    2. Sister of another Trustee (who got elected upon demise of her husband) is married to a Jew and carried her converted sister to a Dadar Agiari;
    3) Brother of Messiah is married to a non Zoroastrian.
    4) Daughter of another Dadar based Trustee is married out of faith but is a frequent visitor to a Fire Temple- though I see nothing wrong in it.
    Do you guys still want to expose your ignorance or your intention is to hoodwink the readers here?
    If I go to the family life of certain HIGH clergy only further embarassment will result. So pl learn to stop hoodwinking the readers about the ‘triumph of orthodoxy’ in elections meant for administering Trust Funds & Prpoerties.

  • Zerxes Dordi

    Behroze,
    You forgot to add that nephew and grand nephew of so named Fruit Juice Concentrate Emperor from Ahmedabad too are inter married. Hi. hi. One set of teeth for display and another for chewing!

  • Zerxes Dordi

    Behroze,
    You forgot to add that nephew and grand nephew of so named Fruit Juice Concentrate Emperor from Ahmedabad too are inter married. Hi. hi. One set of teeth for display and another for chewing!

  • Barak Aga

    Dear Mr. Phiroze,

    You have stated “1) Dear Meheryar, All Zarathustra did was reorganise the religion of Ahura Mazda. 2) If anyone does not like it they are free to leave the community”.

    Does this imply that Ahura Mazda’s, the Supreme Lord of Wisdom’s religion was flawed?
    Why did Zarathustra have to reorganise, what God had created?

    Why wasn’t Zarathustra told by Ahura Mazda, or by the followers of Ahura Mazda, “if you don’t like the religion, you are free to leave it, but you may not “reorganise” “?

  • Barak Aga

    Dear Mr. Phiroze,

    You have stated “1) Dear Meheryar, All Zarathustra did was reorganise the religion of Ahura Mazda. 2) If anyone does not like it they are free to leave the community”.

    Does this imply that Ahura Mazda’s, the Supreme Lord of Wisdom’s religion was flawed?
    Why did Zarathustra have to reorganise, what God had created?

    Why wasn’t Zarathustra told by Ahura Mazda, or by the followers of Ahura Mazda, “if you don’t like the religion, you are free to leave it, but you may not “reorganise” “?

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    Your question suggests that you have seen the pictures. I seriously doubt it, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
    The basic idea is the same as far as I can tell from the photographs that Mr. Mistree has taken from an Iranian navjote. The differences are these: the boys are not in a “dagli,” but have a white polo neck shirt and white pants. They all have a white cap on their head. The priests have the full-length white gown (sorry, I know that is an inappropriate term, but I cannot remember what it is called in our lingo, I think it is called “jamo”; I could be wrong), anyway it is the same that our dasturs wear while performing religious ceremonies. The Iranian dasturs do not have a “paghdi” typically worn by their Indian counterparts, but they all are in a white cap that fully covers their head. The priests performing the navjote are standing behind the “navjotee” (just coined a new word) holding the kusti with the young boy or girl being inducted into the faith, as is done in “the many religious institutions” that you have been to and I haven’t, according to you.
    The picture of the “jashan” is a priest in a similar garb as described above and has the “padan” over his mouth. He has an “afarganiya” with pieces of wood (can’t smell it so don’t know if it’s sandalwood) in front of him with the “baresnom”; there’s a “diva” in front of him, exactly what we have. There are two trays: one filled with dry fruits and another with fresh fruits (water melon, apples, oranges, pomegranate, grapes) He has a glass of milk and another glass of what looks like pomegranate juice or could be red wine (can’t taste it, either.) What’s missing is the “malido and daran and papri”. The “jashan is performed in open air and with the Alborz mountains in the background looks heavenly!

    What’s missing from the Iranian navjote ceremony is the kids not carrying a coconut, there is no “tila”(kunku?), no floral garlands and no rice to pelt the kids with. There is also no “chowk” nor floral arrangements on the navjote podium.

    Satisfied? You are wrong when you say Zoroastrianism is dead in Iran. You are dead wrong! What gives you the idea that the Zoroastrians in India have a monopoly on the “correct format” of the religion? The “tila”, coconut, garlands, “chowk” are, in fact, all incorporated from Hinduism. How can you say that the Iranian Zoroasrians have it all wrong and the Indian Zoroastrians have it right? What proof do you have? I have no problem with a little gaiety with this “tila-tapka” fluff added to our ceremonies, but to say your way is the right way and the pure way is very ludicrous, because it’s not. I have spoken to several Iranian Zoroastrians and the basics are the same. The differences are in the fluff. The similarities are more prominent than “remote resemblances.” How do you know they are wrong?

    I understand your aversion to long posts, but we are dealing with a complex and sensitive subject. Brevity cannot do justice to the nature of the discussion, especially when you keep insisting you are right and everyone else is wrong, without any substantive proof. You cannot spread misinformation and expect others to lie back and let you disseminate what is pure balderdash. You have a nasty habit of making inaccurate statements, without any knowledge. You say you think rationally (???) and believe what you see. What have you seen? Where? When

    Zoroastrianism is well and alive in Iran, Azerbaijan (I have shown you proof), Kazikhstan, Peru, Brazil, Mexico, United States, Australia, Russia…( I have had personal discussions with a few South American Zoroastrians on their practices, have you? You just say they are wrong without any knowledge or first-hand information. Of course, you don’t need any proof they may have it all right. You get divine inspiration and you just know they are wrong. I know you can think for yourself that everyone, but you, is wrong without a rational explanation.)

    Phiroze, the basic beliefs and practices are very similar everywhere. The difference is in the fluff, each community adapting to their environment and culture, something very much expected of a Zoroastrian anyway.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    Your question suggests that you have seen the pictures. I seriously doubt it, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
    The basic idea is the same as far as I can tell from the photographs that Mr. Mistree has taken from an Iranian navjote. The differences are these: the boys are not in a “dagli,” but have a white polo neck shirt and white pants. They all have a white cap on their head. The priests have the full-length white gown (sorry, I know that is an inappropriate term, but I cannot remember what it is called in our lingo, I think it is called “jamo”; I could be wrong), anyway it is the same that our dasturs wear while performing religious ceremonies. The Iranian dasturs do not have a “paghdi” typically worn by their Indian counterparts, but they all are in a white cap that fully covers their head. The priests performing the navjote are standing behind the “navjotee” (just coined a new word) holding the kusti with the young boy or girl being inducted into the faith, as is done in “the many religious institutions” that you have been to and I haven’t, according to you.
    The picture of the “jashan” is a priest in a similar garb as described above and has the “padan” over his mouth. He has an “afarganiya” with pieces of wood (can’t smell it so don’t know if it’s sandalwood) in front of him with the “baresnom”; there’s a “diva” in front of him, exactly what we have. There are two trays: one filled with dry fruits and another with fresh fruits (water melon, apples, oranges, pomegranate, grapes) He has a glass of milk and another glass of what looks like pomegranate juice or could be red wine (can’t taste it, either.) What’s missing is the “malido and daran and papri”. The “jashan is performed in open air and with the Alborz mountains in the background looks heavenly!

    What’s missing from the Iranian navjote ceremony is the kids not carrying a coconut, there is no “tila”(kunku?), no floral garlands and no rice to pelt the kids with. There is also no “chowk” nor floral arrangements on the navjote podium.

    Satisfied? You are wrong when you say Zoroastrianism is dead in Iran. You are dead wrong! What gives you the idea that the Zoroastrians in India have a monopoly on the “correct format” of the religion? The “tila”, coconut, garlands, “chowk” are, in fact, all incorporated from Hinduism. How can you say that the Iranian Zoroasrians have it all wrong and the Indian Zoroastrians have it right? What proof do you have? I have no problem with a little gaiety with this “tila-tapka” fluff added to our ceremonies, but to say your way is the right way and the pure way is very ludicrous, because it’s not. I have spoken to several Iranian Zoroastrians and the basics are the same. The differences are in the fluff. The similarities are more prominent than “remote resemblances.” How do you know they are wrong?

    I understand your aversion to long posts, but we are dealing with a complex and sensitive subject. Brevity cannot do justice to the nature of the discussion, especially when you keep insisting you are right and everyone else is wrong, without any substantive proof. You cannot spread misinformation and expect others to lie back and let you disseminate what is pure balderdash. You have a nasty habit of making inaccurate statements, without any knowledge. You say you think rationally (???) and believe what you see. What have you seen? Where? When

    Zoroastrianism is well and alive in Iran, Azerbaijan (I have shown you proof), Kazikhstan, Peru, Brazil, Mexico, United States, Australia, Russia…( I have had personal discussions with a few South American Zoroastrians on their practices, have you? You just say they are wrong without any knowledge or first-hand information. Of course, you don’t need any proof they may have it all right. You get divine inspiration and you just know they are wrong. I know you can think for yourself that everyone, but you, is wrong without a rational explanation.)

    Phiroze, the basic beliefs and practices are very similar everywhere. The difference is in the fluff, each community adapting to their environment and culture, something very much expected of a Zoroastrian anyway.

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Excellent, excellent point, Barak. Just wait for a response packed with baloney!

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Excellent, excellent point, Barak. Just wait for a response packed with baloney!

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    There you go again! How do you know that all that the European scholar could do was translate the scripture? How do you know that these scholars did not have a thorough understanding of the religion, traditions or rituals? How do you know that? Have you read any of their works? Have you met any of the living scholars? Have you talked to them? How do you know? For God’s sake, how do you know?

    I have met quite a few in the last few years. I will just mention one. Peter Clark is a Welshman with an M. Phil in Zoroastrianism from the University of Cardiff, Wales. Peter is a personal friend because he stayed with me for five days when he came to give a talk to our association. We still maintain regular contact.

    Now, as part of Peter’s thesis, he spent a considerable amount of time in India. In his book “Zoroastrianism: An Introduction to an Ancient Faith” he acknowledges people I will mention that are of interest to you. Here’s what he says:
    “My trip to India in 1966 was facilitated by Khojeste P. Mistree, director Zoroastrian Studies, Bombay and if I have been remiss in the past in fully acknowledging the help given by him and his team, I gladly do so now.” He goes on to say, “…Dastur Dr. Firoze M. Kotwal who invited me to his home to discuss aspects of ritual and priesthood with me (and was similarly generous with his time when he visited London.)” He goes onto acknowledge Dastur K. JamaspAsa among many others. Since you are averse to long posts, I’ll be brief.

    Peter is not a translator of anything. He studied and wrote about Zoroastrianism as “it is a living faith with a coherent theology and a persuasive ethic of good thoughts, good words and good deeds.” It is a great book. If Peter, as a European, does not know much about the religion, as you might suggest, then Kotwal, JamaspAsa, Mistree and the other Zoroastrians must not have a clue of what they are saying. They taught him, for heaven’s sake! How many times do we have to go over this? The European scholars are and were well studied in the religion. You have not read any of their works. How do you know they were not familiar with the language and tradition? How do you know? Dastur Kotwal and Mr. Mistree studied under European scholars at European Universities. I have proven that to you. You have no idea what you are talking about. You just want to insist on being right when you are dead wrong!

    When you keep on saying “let the Parsis do their own thing”, it is fragmenting the religion. What do you call it? Why can’t you understand you are wrong? If you strongly feel you are right, then show some proof; present some arguments with validity; back it up with solid evidence from scripture, history, archaeology, anything!

    How can I forget? You don’t need to show proof. We have to take your word. And then our proof isn’t good enough for you. We are wrong. You just know we are!
    Brilliant!

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    There you go again! How do you know that all that the European scholar could do was translate the scripture? How do you know that these scholars did not have a thorough understanding of the religion, traditions or rituals? How do you know that? Have you read any of their works? Have you met any of the living scholars? Have you talked to them? How do you know? For God’s sake, how do you know?

    I have met quite a few in the last few years. I will just mention one. Peter Clark is a Welshman with an M. Phil in Zoroastrianism from the University of Cardiff, Wales. Peter is a personal friend because he stayed with me for five days when he came to give a talk to our association. We still maintain regular contact.

    Now, as part of Peter’s thesis, he spent a considerable amount of time in India. In his book “Zoroastrianism: An Introduction to an Ancient Faith” he acknowledges people I will mention that are of interest to you. Here’s what he says:
    “My trip to India in 1966 was facilitated by Khojeste P. Mistree, director Zoroastrian Studies, Bombay and if I have been remiss in the past in fully acknowledging the help given by him and his team, I gladly do so now.” He goes on to say, “…Dastur Dr. Firoze M. Kotwal who invited me to his home to discuss aspects of ritual and priesthood with me (and was similarly generous with his time when he visited London.)” He goes onto acknowledge Dastur K. JamaspAsa among many others. Since you are averse to long posts, I’ll be brief.

    Peter is not a translator of anything. He studied and wrote about Zoroastrianism as “it is a living faith with a coherent theology and a persuasive ethic of good thoughts, good words and good deeds.” It is a great book. If Peter, as a European, does not know much about the religion, as you might suggest, then Kotwal, JamaspAsa, Mistree and the other Zoroastrians must not have a clue of what they are saying. They taught him, for heaven’s sake! How many times do we have to go over this? The European scholars are and were well studied in the religion. You have not read any of their works. How do you know they were not familiar with the language and tradition? How do you know? Dastur Kotwal and Mr. Mistree studied under European scholars at European Universities. I have proven that to you. You have no idea what you are talking about. You just want to insist on being right when you are dead wrong!

    When you keep on saying “let the Parsis do their own thing”, it is fragmenting the religion. What do you call it? Why can’t you understand you are wrong? If you strongly feel you are right, then show some proof; present some arguments with validity; back it up with solid evidence from scripture, history, archaeology, anything!

    How can I forget? You don’t need to show proof. We have to take your word. And then our proof isn’t good enough for you. We are wrong. You just know we are!
    Brilliant!

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    Isn’t that just semantics? Reorganize? Nobody converted? You will try every trick in the book to deny Zarathustra introduced a new religion from the one that existed.

    Did Jesus convert people or reform people? Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Old Testament is but part of Jewish scripture. So, is Christianity a new religion or is it reformed Judaism? There are a lot of Judaic principles in Christianity. Just as Zarathustra was born in the Mazdayasni faith, Christ was born a Jew. Then, by your analogy, Christ was a reformer and not the founder of a new religion. Be careful when you mention your theory to a die-hard Christian. Don’t call a staunch Christian a reformed Jew. You may not go home in one piece. Use your “rational thought,” for Christ’s sake!

    Ah, yes! “The Parsis have not permitted conversion since the time they set foot on Indian soil.” First of all, that’s not true. Conversion took place on Indian soil. Look up the Rivayats. You don’t like the Rivayats? You say they are false? Tell thet your Dastur Kotwal. His catechism “A Guide to the Zoroastrian Religion” (co-edited and translated with an American, James Boyd) is littered with references from the Rivayats. Ask him to tell us the Rivayats are hokey which means all of Kotwal’s writings and beliefs are hokey.
    Secondly, if there is an ounce of truth in your statement, conversion to Zoroastrianism is validated by scripture and historical accounts and occured rampantly before “setting foot on Indian soil.” Do you follow Zarathustra or are you a follower of some dastur who may have made up that rule a few centuries ago?

    All you want to do is ask people who disagree with you “to leave the community.” How about changing your tune? How about, “let’s go back to the basics of our religion and practice it as the prophet gave it to us instead of breaking up the community?” Isn’t that a better approach? Shouldn’t we make a conscious effort to preserve the faith sensibly rather than asking people to leave?

  • Meheryar Rivetna

    Dear Phiroze,

    Isn’t that just semantics? Reorganize? Nobody converted? You will try every trick in the book to deny Zarathustra introduced a new religion from the one that existed.

    Did Jesus convert people or reform people? Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Old Testament is but part of Jewish scripture. So, is Christianity a new religion or is it reformed Judaism? There are a lot of Judaic principles in Christianity. Just as Zarathustra was born in the Mazdayasni faith, Christ was born a Jew. Then, by your analogy, Christ was a reformer and not the founder of a new religion. Be careful when you mention your theory to a die-hard Christian. Don’t call a staunch Christian a reformed Jew. You may not go home in one piece. Use your “rational thought,” for Christ’s sake!

    Ah, yes! “The Parsis have not permitted conversion since the time they set foot on Indian soil.” First of all, that’s not true. Conversion took place on Indian soil. Look up the Rivayats. You don’t like the Rivayats? You say they are false? Tell thet your Dastur Kotwal. His catechism “A Guide to the Zoroastrian Religion” (co-edited and translated with an American, James Boyd) is littered with references from the Rivayats. Ask him to tell us the Rivayats are hokey which means all of Kotwal’s writings and beliefs are hokey.
    Secondly, if there is an ounce of truth in your statement, conversion to Zoroastrianism is validated by scripture and historical accounts and occured rampantly before “setting foot on Indian soil.” Do you follow Zarathustra or are you a follower of some dastur who may have made up that rule a few centuries ago?

    All you want to do is ask people who disagree with you “to leave the community.” How about changing your tune? How about, “let’s go back to the basics of our religion and practice it as the prophet gave it to us instead of breaking up the community?” Isn’t that a better approach? Shouldn’t we make a conscious effort to preserve the faith sensibly rather than asking people to leave?