Stop taking painkillers if you want to breed vultures

BNHS says Bombay Parsi Punchayet’s plans to breed vultures at Towers of Silence will not work, as the birds will die from feeding on bodies of those who have consumed diclofenac.

By Manoj R Nair / Mumbai Mirror

In fact, a member of the BNHS – which was initially involved in the breeding programme – has asked the State Forest Department not to grant permission for the project.

rishad-naorojiThe BNHS had first decided to disassociate from the project in June 2007, but following recent reports that the BPP will be going ahead with it, the organisation has clarified that it wants to have no part in it.

An issue that regularly stirs up debate among Parsi-Zoroastrians is the partial breakdown of Dokhmenashini – a funeral system that relies on the sun and carrion birds to dispose of dead bodies. Though there are unverified reports of vulture sightings around the towers, the last time the birds were found in significant numbers there was more than a decade ago.

At a recent community meeting, BPP chairman Khojestee Mistree announced plans to set up an aviary in an attempt to reintroduce the birds at the towers.

“We will source them from a breeding centre and stock them in an aviary built in one of the towers,” said Mistree, adding that they were not planning to breed birds there.

“After saying in their report that the project was workable, BNHS backed out under pressure from members of our community who do not want the Dokhmenashini system to continue. We are nevertheless working towards the project,” Mistree added. The BPP plans to get between 60 and 75 birds for the towers.

BPP faces stiff opposition to breeding programme

The nation-wide decline of vultures has been linked to diclofenac – a drug used in a variety of medicines including painkillers – that causes kidney failure in birds.

“After speaking to scientists, we realised that we cannot go ahead with captive breeding because humans take diclofenac in various forms. Birds bred at the towers would die after feeding on bodies there,” said BNHS member Rishad Naoroji, a former member of the organisation’s executive committee.

Naoroji, who has suggested that the community look for alternate methods to bolster the traditional funeral method, is one of many naturalists to fiercely oppose the project.

“There is no way they are going to get permission from any State Government to breed or stock the birds. As it is, there are few of them left. We cannot take risks with the endangered bird,” he said.

Naoroji, who has written a book on raptors, has asked the BPP not to go ahead with project. He has even written to the state Forest Department to refuse permission to the BPP for captive breeding.

BNHS director Asad Rahmani has told BPP that unless the community stops using the drug, birds kept at the towers will die. “We withdrew because the BPP could not fulfil the conditions that we had set, including stopping the use of diclofenac by the community.

We are surprised that the BPP trustees have been quoted in recent newspaper reports that we are still involved. We do not want to be involved in the issue. Let them solve their problem,” said Rahmani.

  • AT LAST DDD – i.e. Dadar Duo’s Dialogues relentlessly accusing others who disagreed with them will come to an end.Thank Dadar Ormazd for that.
    What the Community needs is a healing touch. We have had more than fair share of controversies and it is time for consensus and not for confrontations. Trust sense will prevail to accommodate and respect feelings of others.One must gracefully accept facts as they stand.To bow before realities as they are is sign of greatness and not of defeat.Our community is too tiny in numbers to remain ignorant of realities and arrogantly indulge in controversies.

  • Moderator, Pl delete my earlier post.The same sholud reas as under:
    This, unfortunately is the credibility level of a sitting Trustee, who {according to his like minded bigots} addressed Anjuman Meet a fortnight back without public address system and ‘clarified’ on this issue.The salient question is how can a community be expected to
    repose confidence in such persons who mislead the audience.
    THE JOKE OF ASHISVANGH ROJ(TO DAY).
    BPP should pass a RESOLUTION prohibiting all Chemist & Druggist in area of Greater Mumbai from dispensing drigs containing Diclofenac to Parsi Zoroastrians.
    The Second RESOLUTION should be to prohibit all Parsi Zoroastrians from reading any News Paper, Magazine or Journal other than WAPIZ page, failing which they will not be allowed entry in any Fire Temple.

  • rustom jamasji

    The aviary project suiting the dokhmenishini system is challenging.Infact the aviary project with regards to vulture is challenging yet has met sucess worldwide.
    To adapt this chalenge to dokhmenshini is thus challenging.

    Yet
    To land Man on the moon was challenging. to find water on mars was chalenging yet sucessfull thought coupled with failures.

    Mankinds survival just 60 years back was challening, average age of a man in europe was 22!! due to WW2.Yet after passing thru such challenges , europe boasts of having first class nation and builders of such.

    A budding nation’s boundaries were protected when India just after independence adapted the ‘packets’to fly at heights unthought of by the makers of such-The USA

    Vietnamese faced a challenge that was most horrifying, more bombs were dropped on vietnam than tghe whole of world war 2! Not only they survived the chalenge but won too!

    Glaciers are melting yet acts by someone named the ‘Glacier man of India’has restricted such.

    The deeds of ‘Lady Lindy’made her reffered to the term bestowed upon her. Ofcourse some can take recourse in her last flight in June of 1937, yet many more take her up for what she achieved.

    The challenges faced by our forfathers that threathened their very survival to them leaving so much behind that we as custodians cannot even meet a chalenge to preserve shows how much some of us have taken for granted.

    For some are happy and prasy to Ohramzd that the challenge before us suceeds in ending Ohramz’s system, many more thrive to meet this chalenge though mind bogling and on a suprenatural level seek ohrmazd’s help in aiding in finding solutions…

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Our faith is basesd on “MANASHNI, GAVASHNI & KUNASHNI”.
    Dadar Ahuramazda can not be expected to be taken for a ride by charaltans, hoodwinkers and those who follow principles of Goebbels via fortnightly edition of FPJ Ad pages distributed free, assuming the readers to be unaware of realities.

  • Yazdy Palia

    Friends,
    One can not go against nature. I do not expect the forest department to ever agree to any suggestions of the sort.
    I know that there are a couple of new colonies of vultures observed in wayanad wild life sanctuary in Kerala. I live in wayanad, My estate is adjacent to the wayanad wild life sanctuary but I heard of it in a hush hush manner from some naturalist. Only the experts have knowledge of the location. They do not even discuss such things in public.
    That is how seriously the forest department takes its job. If anyone living in an ivory tower thinks that he can maneuver his way around, he is living in a fools paradise.
    Regards
    Yazdy Palia.
    Please note, I do not have anything against Dokhmenishi.

  • QUOTABLE QUOTE.
    “Thanks to the WAPIZ page, the community now refuses to be brainwashed by the Jame Rag.”
    Posted by Behram Dhabhar | October 30, 2009, 1:02 pm
    VERY VERY APPROPRIATE FOR “LAUGHTER CHALLENGE COMPETITION”

  • farzana

    Rustom- “The challenges faced by our forfathers that threathened their very survival to them leaving so much behind that we as custodians cannot even meet a chalenge to preserve shows how much some of us have taken for granted.”

    DONE TO DEATH AND TOTAL EMOTIONAL BLACK MAIL!!! TRY SOMETHING NEW!!!

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Farzana,
    By ignoring the laws of nature, some people want to ‘CHALLENGE’ the Almighty himself. If the Almighty intended for continuation of the hitherto prevailing method, there would have been no need to contemplate Aviary. Time & tide wait for none.
    Can we bring dinosaurs back?
    God helps those who help themseves and not those who refuse to read the writing on the Wall.
    It is futile to discuss with those having intelligence deficit.

  • rustom jamasji

    Farzana

    On your remarks portraying that remembering history for future use for survival of zoroastrian systems akin to emitonal blackmail and that it bores you to death

    Well even Ahmedijan said the same, Infact he went further and even says that History of Iran Pre Islam is no history at all.

    Ofcourse many who take shelter in avoiding or tryign to malign efforts to remember history so one does not forget it have themselves creatd atrocities and forced heir way done others…

    So far no one has been forced to adapt to dokhmenishini, I guess not adering to a senseless change and a meetings demands that make zoroastrianisma personal workshop can be termed as blackmail by you

    Also our generation never had to fight for zoroastrianism surviving , this was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.

    We do not own all that has been passed on , at best we are merely its custodians. We can only hand over this hard won survival as Zoroastrians to the next generations. We cannot squander our liberties in th garb of change and thrusting this change on everyone. We simply do not have the right to do so.

    Contrary to your beliefs, I stand by the history of Israel as an example of them surviving due to their not forgeting their history. Even though again Ahmedijan says its a hoax and that the jew should not emotionally blackmail others.

    Your statement is very similar to Ahmedijans thinking

  • farzana

    Anti -Dhongee, you spoke my mind and i couldn’t have said it better.

    Though i would support all efforts put in by environmentalist to conservation wild life including vultures, however i cannot bring myself to support any efforts to breed vultures by these religious nitwits which is aimed selfishly to force the birds to eat toxic bodies knowing it fully well they are poisonous for the birds…and it would eventually push them to slow painful death.

    This is what their religion teaches them…to mindlessly stoop at any level to follow irrational dogmas… and if others happen to see logic in not following blindly, than manipulate them with obscure nonsense like… ‘The challenges faced by our forefathers to preserve the religion’ … Utter nonsense…RUSTOM, I WANT HISTORICAL EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS OUR FOREFATHERS CAME TO INDIA TO PRESERVE ZOROASTRIANISM.

    There is enuff evidence that shows Arabs were not interested in conversion … by the end of Arab rule in Persia ie 200 years… only 40% of persians had adopted Islam…and these converted zoroastrians were not even considered muslims by the arab…They were slandered as ‘MAVALIS’ … So stop spreading false stories about religious persecution just to blackmail us here…Try something new!!

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Farzana,
    Quote:
    “For some are happy and prasy to Ohramzd that the challenge before us suceeds in ending Ohramz’s system” Unquote.
    EVEN ASSUMING THAT THE SYSTEM WAS PRESCRIBED BY AHURA MAZDA, THEN WHO ARE ORDINARY BEINGS LIKE US TO QUESTION HIS ‘WILL’ IN ASKING US TO DISCARD THE SYSTEM. FOR IF AHURA MAZDA SO DESIRED, COMMUNITY WOULD NOT BE FACING THE CURRENT PREDICAMENT.
    NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS ISSUE IS NOW REQUIRED BECAUSE THESE BIGOTS WILL USE THE SAME AS SO CALLED OPPOSITION FROM REFORMIST WHICH COMPELLED THEM TO DROP THE PROJECT. LET US NOT GIVE THEM AN EXCUSE ON THE PLATTER TO ESCAPE FROM THEIR COMMITMENT TO GULLIBLE DURING ELECTIONS. LET THESE ‘SAVIOURS’ ADMIT THAT THEIR IDEAS WERE IMPRACTICAL.
    IT SEEMS THERE IS OPPOSITION FROM WITHIN THEIR OWN RANKS BECAUSE ‘AVIARY’ WOULD DISCOURAGE PROSPECTIVE BUYERS OF PROPOSED OWNERSHIP’ BUILDING PROJECT AND A BUILDING IS A REMUNERATIVE PROPOSITION.

  • Anti Dhongidox & Farzana,
    Does debating this issue with arrogant and foul mouthed fake “Scholars” leads us anywhere? These monuments of non achievement are now on the look out for scapegoats to shift the blame for this failure. As is their style, they will indulge in whipping up emotions at a meeting against the Thinking sections of the Parsees and falsely label them as Reformists.In any case we need no credit for failure of their mission owing to its impracticality.
    Please do not give them an escape route to evade answering their core constituency and supporters.
    Let them not harp that thinking section of Zoros created obstacles in the path of their ‘mission’. We should ensure that they are exposed as short sighted bunch of opportunists.

  • Kersee Kabraji

    Some say that our community is geting extict. I say that a community does not get extict for want of resources or any such reason. It gets extinct because it does not see the writings on the wall or has lost vision. It gets extinct because it has no ‘mission’. Why bother about surviving the birds ? hy not bother about surviving ourselves?.
    Are the Panchayet Trustees and our Priests capable of comming up with any concrete suggestions ? There is nothing ‘religious’ about getting rid of the dead body.One has to use any system that is available locally. If this does not make sense to our Trustees and so-called ‘high-priests’, the community can not help but to become extinct.

  • Right you are Kersee Kabrajee.
    Those bald not bold were more interested in free publicity of their names indulged in name calling and hurling adjectives against those who did not agree with their myopic vision of our Religion.
    The earlier Board of Trustees was made to rescind the Resolution regarding prayer facilities at the Towers for those opting for alternate methods. The present Seven went a step further with their FATWA against two mobeds despite reading the writing on the Wall. If they have two clean up the mess of ‘two eggs on their faces’, they have themselves to thank. They are now in a mire of their own making. Be a spectator and watch the predicament of those who believe that’majority are with them’.

  • farzana

    Yep, Piloo and Anti-Dhongee, you are so right… Trustees are already making grounds to pin blame on ‘non-brainwashed’ if their baby project fails….

    read this- “After saying in their report that the project was workable, BNHS backed out under pressure from members of our community who do not want the Dokhmenashini system to continue.”

    Kersee, you are spot on as always… im so happy to see you here… remember those words by rabbi hillel -“He who refuses to learn deserves extinction.”

    Rustom, i asked for historial evidence to show our ancestors came to India to preserve Z’ism.. …not lawarra…

  • True Reformist Zoroastrian

    Listen you guys ! Have any of you contributed towards the BPP coffers ? Have any of you raised your little finger in doing any good for the community ? Have any of you even got the guts to walk into the BPP boardrooom / office and critize the trustees face to face ? and all you guys know and are good and doing is Yap, Yap and Yap.

    I am no BPP sympathizer and do feel that this Aviary project would not take off, but atleast let them try. Is it YOUR money that is being put to gamble ?
    The cosmo press is waiting to pounce on such juicy tit bits, at our expense and here we have bawas fighting over something they dont know or have not even bothered to know. It seems most of you are not gainfully employed, and would rather nit pick at anything you can lay your hands on.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    T.R (?) Z.

    Whose money is sought to be used? The Trustees are certainly not going to contribute from their own pockets.Who will be accountable for likely loss?
    Definitely it is not the money of any of the bloggers but money meant for Charitable purposes, for the poor that will be diverted to satisfy the ego of a handful of individuals.FYKI there is a concept called ‘Accountabilty” and it is for this reason there is an Office of Charity Commissioner.
    It is none of anybody’s concern whether somebody is gainfully employed or otherwise so long as he/she is not a parasite on the charity funds or residing in BPP Charity Buildings.
    Those resorting to Cosmo Press, are self styled “Scholars’ who have had to eat a humble pie for their reckless utterances and not those posssessing common sense who confine such discussions on this blog or in Parsee Press. This line last line clearly shows your affiliations/ true colours.
    Imitation is the best form of flattery insofar as using a pseudo names is concerned.
    YES, lastly I for one would like these Scholars(?)to ‘try’ their experiment as suggested by you so that in next elections their Waterloo becomes a certainty.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Farzana,Piloo, Kersee,
    Those who called others as “Cowards” are now adopting the same strategy of using pseudo names. WHY. Because their earlier desire for cheap fame by mentioning their full names ended in a fiasco.Identifying of such persons does not require Sherlock Holmes.

  • kfkeravala

    All traditional Parsis should be vigilant about this point and refuse to take this drug.The Respected Trustees of the Petit Hospital should ban the use of Diclofenac in their hospital.They should immediately stop procurement of Diclofenac.Trustees of all Parsi Hospitals should call for a meeting with all their Doctors and instruct them to not prescribe diclofenac to Parsi patients.
    If there is a will(Parsi Community and Political) there is a way,God Willing the Revered Vulture will surely make a comeback.The Bald Eagle has been removed from the endangered list.

    We(i.e. traditional and reformist) and our Dear Departed ancestors owe a lot to these Vultures and now it is a pay back time to save these Birds from extinction.

  • farzana

    Very well said Anti dhongee…thumbs up!!

    Just want to add –
    “The cosmo press is waiting to pounce on such juicy tit bits, at our expense and here we have bawas fighting over something they dont know or have not even bothered to know.”

    True Reformist Zoroastrian, if you are ‘no BPP sympathizer’ why does it bother you if mainstream press exposes BPP’s lie?? Freedom of press and right to information are integral parts of any democratic process… As i can see, its a coveted attempt on your part to gag our voices… which has failed miserably.

    “It seems most of you are not gainfully employed, and would rather nit pick at anything you can lay your hands on.”

    im sure your definition of ‘gainfully employed’ is- being on BPP payroll

  • farzana

    “Those who called others as “Cowards” are now adopting the same strategy of using pseudo names. WHY. Because their earlier desire for cheap fame by mentioning their full names ended in a fiasco.Identifying of such persons does not require Sherlock Holmes.”

    haaahaaa true…and this coward is one post wonder:)))

  • farzana

    Kerawalla, if you want to live your life as a can food for vultures, you are welcome to do so by all means don’t try to impose it on others who want to live their lives like human beings.

  • If we had the same level of thinking as displayed by TRUE REFORMIST ZOROASTRIAN when he says “but atleast let them try. Is it YOUR money that is being put to gamble ?” then in all probability Funds of BPP would have been 5% of current corpus had this ‘thinking’ been followed by earlier Trustees. Each Trust has a clause specified known as Object clause on which alone money from the Trust Account can be spent.
    For better enlightenment of all on this portal, please inform the name of Trust under BPP which allows money to be spent on experiments.
    Thanks.

  • rustom jamasji

    Kerawala, on farzana’s point to you that you should not enforce your practise on other’s, i wonder when was the last time you or anyone imposed Zoroastrianism or its practises on everyone?!!!

    The funny part is that when such pass such judgements they forget that no one has been forced to adapt to dakhmenishini yet many are enforcing ending this practise whilst acting like martyrs..

    I wonder since Farzana mocks this prctise as Tin food for vultures, woult the same thought process be applied to burials as tin food for maggots or roast meat for cremations..

    ALSO such people mock the basic thumb rule of decomposition and that is twice as faster in air than water and upto 8 times faster than when buried..

  • farzana

    Rustom, treat yourself for amnesia and tell us what do you call a ban imposed by BPP on Khushroo Madon and Faramroz Mirza from conducting prayers at Towers of Silence ?

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Farzana,
    Mr. Keravala’s post is based on several impractical assumptions.
    Firstly, foe every joint pain people do no get hospitalised;

    Secondly,even if some one does get hospitalised for chronic joint pain, then it is not neccessary that such a person will get admitted to a Parsee managed hospital, what with dispersal of Parsee population in all cities;

    Third assumption is that every Parsee invariably gets treated by a Parsee phyician.

    Lastly, many persons repeat the earlier precription rather than spend money on visting a medico.Even Pharmacist often recommends medication.
    Let these 5 Garden Parsees live in their own World ignoring realities.They do not know the realities of poverty and middle class being impoverished by a phenomenon called inflation.Hospitalisation and calling on medicos is a luxury those ‘gainfully unemployed’ can never comprehend.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    “treat yourself for amnesia and tell us what do you call a ban imposed by BPP on Khushroo Madon and Faramroz Mirza from conducting prayers at Towers of Silence ?”

    MANY CALL SUCH FATWAS AS SANCTIMONIOUS MAFIAGIRI. And these very persons pretend that they are not having Taliban mentality.

  • piloo.

    They say, whatever will be , will be. Recently a friend of mine drew my attention to an article authored by a renowned Dastur under the title Tenets of Zoroastrianism. It is said that while consecrating a Fire in Atashbehram, fires from 16 different sources is procured, which includes vocational fires and fire from funeral pyre. Our Religion originated in Persia and first Atashbehram was established in Persia. The inference that can be drawn is that cremation was in all likelihood practiced in Persia at the relevant time. Otherwise how else the Atashbehram there was set up?
    In Mumbai it is a fashion to practice hypocrisy like saying that no one can enter the dakhmas but when Kharwas enter, it is not defilement.

  • farzana

    “And these very persons pretend that they are not having Taliban mentality.”

    and these very people also pretend to be constantly victimized by the so called ‘reformists’.

    I call this ‘Persecution Envy’ which is a mutant strain of Reality Denial Disease (RDD). It causes the ayatollahs in the world to imagine that they are being discriminated against, persecuted and oppressed. Basically it causes them to view any and every disagreement, parody or insult as nothing less than the persecution of their lovely religion. Symptoms include (but are not limited to): constant whining in the media regarding the war on truth/conservative values; the complete inability to see criticism as constructive; the constant need to feel victimized; the urge to feel offended by everything and the puzzling habit of dismissing valid criticism.

  • farzana

    Anti-Dhongee,

    types like Kerawala, Rustom and Behram Dhabhar never cease to amuse … in fact they are the reason why bawas are projected as crack pots in Bollywood movies.

  • Rustom,
    You say “the basic thumb rule of decomposition and that is twice as faster in air than water and upto 8 times faster than when buried..”
    If the system is so very efficient then why apply “Herbal Powder” and why have Solar Panels.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Agreed Voice of Reason. Just to add that since the ‘disposal’ is perfect and rapid as claimed in comparative terms, then even the need for Aviary is superfluous. Correct?
    Some ‘intellectual’persons suffer from foot in the mouth ailment.

  • rustom jamasji

    By Banning Madon and Mirza.,they havent enforced Dokhmenishini……

    Madon and Mirza do whatveer they do for those who have already opted out of dokhmenishini!!! probably when threy are still alive..

    Statements portraying that by banning Madon n Mirza ,impose dokhmenishini, adds strength when I say tat when not adering to a senseless change and a meetings demands that make zoroastrianism a personal workshop of personal likes or dislikes is termed blackmail or enforcing…

    Infact if anyone is acting like a taliban, it is the cotorie that wants its thirst to end dokhmenishini or change Zoroastriansim to their likes and want to exclude what they do not like….to be quenched in whatever way possible..

    You may not like the thumb ruile of decomposition and even disagree with it as it shows decomposition the fastest when not buried , i wonder if you wud like ure dislike to such as demanding a change to this fact and when not heeded, cry from rooftops that science is acting like a taliban

  • rustom jamasji

    Piloo about cremation being done in Persia and trying to protray it that Zoroastrians pracrtised it is akin to implying that muslims eat pork as many people do so in India .

    Zoroastrian lands were tolerant lands due to the people and it is a fact that Hindus, buddhists, Chinese, jews, christians all stayed under zorioastrian/persian lands..
    Infact Christianity took shelter in Parthian times when rome wasnt christianised..

    I hope that whilst ure attention was drawn to the fact that consecrated fire comprises of even fire from a burning corpse, it was not left out by the attention drawer that it is this fire which is consecrated the most according to zoroastrian theology showing that zoroastrian philosophy sees fire being polluted the most by a corpse thus dispelasing adar yazd/ Ardibehst amesaspenta the most according to zoroastrianism…..

    Now since many people in india eat pork, are u going to attribute it to islam or since muslims adhere to halal meat in India, attribute this to the rajputs!!?

  • piloo.

    Folks,
    I do want to retain my sanity and not become a candidate for treatment by a shrink.
    When we talk of Atsh Behram Fire, Jamasji talks of food habits.Perhaps that is because the Free food happens to be the bait WAPIZ doles out to attract ‘Listeners” at their ‘packed’ houses.
    He can not reply to the points.
    Does he deny that Fire in
    Atash Behrams is derived from 16 different types of Fires including Fire from a funeral pyre.?
    Was not Zoroastrianism was a state religion or not during the relevant period in Persia?.
    If so, how was the Atash Behram there consecrated in ancient Persia?..
    Those who attend WAPIZ meets can only think of food., nothing else.
    What is the ‘archaelogical evidence’ that Hindus, Chinese , Jews & Christians stayed under Persian lands as claimed?
    Or by implication,does he imply that fire from funeral pyre was that from pyre of a “Parjjat”?
    R.J’s post is read repeatedly by me but not understood. If any other blogger could fathom its meaning vis- a – vis my earlier post, please do try to explain.
    As for comments against Madan & Mirza, RJ claims that this two priests have not ENFORCED DKHMNISHNI. ‘Enforced’ is the word used.If this is not an example of ‘coercion’ & dictatorial tendencies than what is it.
    Science certainly is not acting Taliban. It has given a befitting snub to Talibans by stating that Aviary is not feasible.
    Yet please do go on harping on this issue. My congratulations in advance for ‘success; of your ‘gamble’ – the word used by True Reformist Zoroastrian. But do please let us know the time span for your ‘success’ in the venture of Aviary.
    My inevitable conclusion is that those who have no say on the issue are most vociferous without understanding its implications.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    piloo. says:
    November 21, 2009 at 9:45 am
    Our Religion originated in Persia and first Atashbehram was established in Persia. The inference that can be drawn is that cremation was in all likelihood practiced in Persia at the relevant time.

    Yes you are right. The Devayasnis did practice cremation.

    Piloo says :- In Mumbai it is a fashion to practice hypocrisy like saying that no one can enter the dakhmas but when Kharwas enter, it is not defilement
    .
    That is not hypoccrisy. To the best of my knowledge no one “allows” or “permits” the juddins to enter. They do so illegally or with the connivance of the staff. Some years ago a past trustee of the BPP also did so challenging all rules. This is the reason why the Talesams of the Dakhma are broken and we are in the situation that exists today. We are ourselves to blame who have allowed the situation to deteriorate.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Piloo,
    I assume you are referring to write up on
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_temple. I have done a cut paste job and reproduce the same herebelow.
    Atash Behram

    “The Yazd Atash Behram The highest grade of fire is the Atash Behram, “Fire of victory”, and its establishment and consecration is the most elaborate of the three. It involves the gathering of 16 different “kinds of fire”, that is, fires gathered from 16 different sources, including lightning, fire from a cremation pyre, fire from trades where a furnace is operated, and fires from the hearths as is also the case for the Atash Adaran. Each of the 16 fires is then subject to a purification ritual before it joins the others. 32 priests are required for the consecration ceremony, which can take up to a year to complete.”
    I got the point you have attempted to make in your post of 21st Nov 2009 that practice of cremation existed in Ancient Persia.The next question is about the Atash Behrams in India and how the fires thereat were consecrated.
    But you have to realise that we are dealing with Parsi Bourbons who never forget any thing because they never learnt any thing. The myth created by these opportunists is that flesh can not be burnt on Fire. That myth gets exposed by the above quote. On a lighter note, all Bawas like to eat Tandoor food and relish it disregarding their ” pious religious beliefs”.
    Yet these individuals lay claim to being Scholars of our Religion replete with historical background and they expect others to be their followers and imbibe their mumbo jumbo “TEACHINGS”.

  • farzana

    Rustom,
    here is a link… that clearly says “Two Zoroastrian priests, who have been conducting navjotes or initiation ceremonies for children from mixed marriages, and offering after-death prayers for cremated Parsis, have been banned from praying at Towers of Silence and FIRE TEMPLES.”

    http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=2&contentid=20090727200907270214559685ca50f15

    So in other words, those priests who muster courage to offer prayers for those who opt for any other method other than Dokhmenishini…will be harassed and persecuted by imposition of ban on their practice in fire temples and at Dongerwadi. In a way bullying the community into cowing down to DOKHMENSHINI as the only method for disposing the death available…

    And the irony is, those who impose religious fatwas and bully the community into following their version of religion… are the ones who also whine constantly in media of being victimized and bullied.

    Parsee Ayotollahs like Khojeste Mistry and his chamchas think they have a religious duty to tell others what to think… They re probably under an impression that they own the community like they own WAPIZ CIRCUS…The sooner they wake up from their delusions better for them…
    And last but not the least BPP is not a religious body… its a body to manage trust…So it has no business what so ever to impose bans on priests or issue religious fatwas. Understood?

  • farzana

    One more thing, Rustom, are you trying to tell us that Zoroastrianism was never modified in its 3,000 years of existence?

  • Aban Jussawalla

    Those who have no knowledge of the “BATEN side of our religion and are interested only in disposing the dead body with dignity and are not bothered to acquire knowledge about the 9 spiritual parts which have to be disposed with dignity should be allowed to make arrangements elsewhere at their own expense. The priests who are willing to offer prayers should be allowed to do so. After all they will have to be answerabe to Dadar Ahuramazda. As long as such arrangements are not encouraged by the high priests and the trustees, they will not be held responsible for such sins committed by Zoroastrians on their own.

  • Aban Jussawalla

    The above mail is sent by Aban Jussawalla. Why should it not be published? My name is aready there along with the message.

  • piloo.

    Behram,
    As per my information Kharwas are allowed to enter for clean up operation and burying the bones.If my information is incorrect then please clarify, who perform these tasks.

  • piloo.

    Behram,
    By the way, are you suggesting that persons who ‘officially” enter the precincts of Dakhma are ‘holier’ than others?
    Does their entry for clean up etc not affect
    Talesams?

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Aban,
    The property on which Towers are situate is not the personal property of any group of Zoroastrians or of BPP Trustees. It is held in fiduciary capacity by the Trustees. Trustees are not owners. It is for use of all Parsees practicing Zoroastrian faith, not necessarily your particular “brand”.
    Please enlighten others about the source for acquiring knowledge of 9 spiritual parts that you claim you are aware of.No body wants to interfere in the way your group wants to practice religion.But do not create obstacle for others who are not bumpkins.
    As for “High Priests”, they have a ‘system’ of treating each case on its ‘merits’ i.e.Status/ Wealth of the concerned non Zoroastrian. Depending on such ‘factors’ they permit performance of Navjotes and Uthamnas of Non Zoroastrians.
    Are you implying that Priests who offer prayers for those Parsees who are buried or cremated in places other than Mumbai, Surat etc. are committing a sin.? People like you deceive yourself if you believe that such talk will scare rational minded individuals.One is judged by one’s own karma viz manashi, gavashni and kunashni and not by the way their mortal remains are disposed off.
    If Parsee Zoros are not allowed use of the facilities, then surely, those who deny the facility are in league with builder lobby.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Hi, Farzana,

    Lets stop this endless arguments with those who know they are wrong. After being exposed of phenomenon of what you termed as ‘One Post Wonder’, these self styled Religious Scholars and Authorities! are busy apparently borrowing E Mail Id’s of friends, neighbours and relatives to ‘propagate’ some mumbo jumbo of ‘ “TALESAM”/ “BATEN’ 9 Spiritual parts etc. The language of Proxy posts reveals the ‘hidden hand’ sorry “brain”.
    They want to project that ‘majority is with them’ by such proxy posts.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Piloo, as far as my knowledge goes the task of burying the bones is done by the Nasasallars themselves. If I remember well the Kharwas were evicted ftom the property by the late Rustom Tirandaz and Dinshaw Mehta years ago.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Well said Aban. The problem here is that our learned friends do not even have knowledge of the “Jaher” side, so how do you expect them to have knowledge of the Batein side. Once I wrote a long post on a religious argument on this very forum. On second thoughts I immediately deleted it without posting since it does not make sense to face ridicule and senseless criticism from folks who do not wish to learn but are only interested in pulling others down.

  • farzana

    Aban,
    is there one God or many?? How can there be one God who has no problems with 80 million hindus cremating their dead or with other 3/4th of the world that buries their dead… but have a different yard stick to judge us?? What does your 9 spiritual parts have to say about this?

    Im sure Dadar Ahuramazda, if he exist, is going to answer me why he created a situation where his beloved DOKHMENSHINI failed, before he judges me as a sinner… So rest assure its between him and me…or rather ‘us’.

  • farzana

    Anti-Dhongee,
    i recently bumped into a Shia guy who is as inclined towards knowledge of spiritually as apree Aban and Behram…He sent me an email pointing out that i was on a wrong PATH since HELL is full of fire and worshiping fire is equal to worship of Satan. To quote in his words-” you fire worshipers are domed as the Fire only devours…is never pleased or satiated… no matter how much it is worshiped…”
    So all these self style authorities on God on right path and 9 path and jaher side or batein side are all basically brainwashed ‘gainfully unemployed’ as you had rightfully pointed out. And quite an abundant of these ‘parvaarta parsis’ are registered on Behram’s yahoo grp on Traditional Z’ism. Now you know from where ‘one posts wonders’ originate … and why behram lands up each time to give his bachas a shaabaaashi 😀

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Piloo,

    Pls ignore my earlier post ref Nasasallars, this job is being one by Cyrus Siganporia and his dedicated team of volunteers from Navroze Baug.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Piloo,

    No, nothing of that sort.

    A Dakhma is a consecrated place much like our Agyaris / Atashbehrams. The consecration ceremony ensures that a spiritual fortress is developed. This explanation is quite intricate and we shall not enter into the details. Various reasons cause the Talesams to break, one of them being entry of juddins.

    As regards the “trustee” entering the precinct of the Dakhma the required Nahn should be taken before and after which was not done. This is to prevent Drujih from spreading and contaminating the environment and the general public.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Farzana,

    This topic was discussed in detail as a seperate Forum on UB and you are well aware of the answers. Asking the same question again several times is not going to do you any good specially so since you do not have the required “Maddo”

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Farzana,
    Jussawalla’s post is an admission that their coterie is NOT interested in disposing the dead body with dignity. Rather it is an admission in their own words that the cuurent practice is UNDIGNIFIED.
    Her language strangely resembles the pep talk given by mad Mullahs to young men promising ‘martyrdom’ and beautiful virgins waiting for them in paradise. And these ‘intellectuals’ resent being called Talibans.

  • True Reformist Zoroastrian

    How do you guys want to be disposed ? Think fast cause your time is up ! I can see that from the crap that is spewed out on these bulletin boards. You can jump from a multistoried tower or drown in the Arabian Sea or better still just attach one of those Taliban bombs on your backside and pull the lever. Whooosh ! you will disintegrate in no time.

    What a “dignified” way to dispose yourself. Why bother about Dakhmas and Aviaries and high priests. After all religion is something between you and your God…… whatever that means. Take control of your own life and do what suits you best.

    I wonder if the moderator himself is ever reading this crap. You faltu bawas have no aim in life and can only spend your invaluable time in such senseless gossip.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    SUGGEST YOU CHANGE YOUR NAME TO
    “TRUE FRUSTRATED ZOROASTRIAN”.
    WHY CORRUPT A WORD CALLED REFORMIST?
    BTW WHY DO YOU READ THIS PORTAL IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE SUCH A BUSYBODY AND “VALUE YOUR TIME?

  • Seems this fake reformist is repaying his debt of free food provided by WAPIZ. in true WAPIZ style.

  • farzana

    No. Im not aware of any debate on this subject, Behram… You can simple say you have no answers instead of unnecessary getting defensive.
    To begin with my query was for Aban, unless you are implying that you post here on her behalf…
    Next, a religion is an idea…Just as any other idea, and its open to questioning and even criticism.Censorship of questioning belief system is an outcome of your fear of doubt and your incapacity to digest opinions other than your own. And judging from the level of lavaara that you usually write …your tenacity can only be compared with Don Quixote’s determination to fight with the windmill. Good luck.

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    “To begin with my query was for Aban, unless you are implying that you post here on her behalf…”
    This occured to you Farzana, a bit late.Read my post of 9.10 a.m. to -day regarding Proxy Posts.
    As for to -day’ post of True Reformist Zoroastrian, it is hard to believe that such a blogger who wishes ill of others can at all lay claim to be called a Zoroastrian. One may differ in his/her views,may not see eye to eye with point of view of another person but to wish ill of others is unbecoming of a Zoroastrian and wonder of wonders why Rustom and Behram do not contest this REFORMIST.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Farzana,

    The forum where this question was asked was started by me titled “A Simple Question”. All the participants on the forum benefited from the discussion except you since your pea sized brain could not comprehend what was being discussed.

    As regards answering the question addressed to Aban, I normally dont butt in but Aban appears to be new on this forum and in my opinion should not waste her time “educating” people like you whose only intention is leg pulling.

  • The gutter language deployed by a person posing himself or herself as a TRUE REFORMIST ZOROASTRIAN reflects on the upbringing of this person who wants to silence debates because of his/her impaired mental ability to discuss rationally and with reason.. Such ‘curses’ are not going to deter intellectual minds from discussing issues concerning the community and Religion. Far from it,such Nazi type outbursts only reinforces the zeal of others to debate more intensely rather then silencing discourse. Nevertheless it is a sad reflection of existence of ‘Korgas’ in our community who stoop so low as to become a source of embarrassment to even hard nosed genuine Traditional orthodox.Outbursts such as this merit no applause but unequivocal condemnation.

  • farzana

    Anti-Dhongee,
    Mad am Alretard bin Mullah Omar also declares that “which have to be disposed with dignity should be allowed to make arrangements elsewhere at their own expense.” … is she trying to imply Dungerwadi is her personal property? 😀

  • farzana

    Ofcoz Behram, anyone who expresses opinions contrary to yours regarding religion is automatically ‘brainless’…And thats only because you have no answers to the counter queries…Your so called knowledge is so fragile that it feels threatened by any counter argument …So the next best thing you do is declare the critic brainless and fleee from the scene. Deja vu

    Anyway anti dhongee, you got to know this- according to Behram, all spirits from ‘good pious’ parsis report to Ahura Mazda on planet Jupiter, all dead Xtians go to Venus, all dead hindus and buddhists report to their gods on planet Mercury and dead miyas go to Mars!!
    Now we are supposed to lap this trash without questioning him… or we are ‘brainless’!! 😀

  • farzana

    C’mon Aban, you claim you are very knowledgeable… so why don’t you answer me?? Is there one God or many?? How can the same God approve 80 million hindus who cremate their dead but consider cremation of dead Parsis as a sin? Answer me…

  • farzana

    Behram/Aban/True Reformist, another knowledgeable scholar from your category,,, May be you can plan a get together with him over a Chai-Biscute

    http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/ … e-men.html

    Video: Saudi Cleric Extols the Virtues of Allah’s Virgins in Paradise,
    “They are White Women who are Menstruation-Free, Free of Feces, Urine, Phlegm”….

    All knowledgeable men and women know God like they bump into him daily!! kamaal che!!

  • farzana

    Piloo,
    and this person actually started out by saying- “I am no BPP sympathizer ” …True colors surfaced faster than expected…eh!:D

  • farzana

    Yeaaa you bet, anti-dhongee… I loved the way, real Behram butts in to praise his proxy!! :P….

  • Behram Dhabhar

    farzana says: November 24, 2009 at 10:06 am
    <<>>

    Farzana, thank you for confirming what I already said in my last post. You have not understood head or tail of what had been written on the UB forum and I attribute it to your “Maddo”. Thank you once again for strengthening my beliefs.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    farzana says: November 24, 2009 at 10:06 am
    all spirits from ‘good pious’ parsis report to Ahura Mazda on planet Jupiter, all dead Xtians go to Venus, all dead hindus and buddhists report to their gods on planet Mercury and dead miyas go to Mars!!

    Farzana, thank you for confirming what I already said in my last post. You have not understood head or tail of what had been written on the UB forum and I attribute it to your “Maddo”. Thank you once again for strengthening my beliefs.

  • Poppycock monologues can not be made to appear as dialogues unless unless an e mail address is ‘lent’ by a pliable individual.

  • farzana

    Deja vu, Behram…nothing new…everytime you can’t defend your crap you indulge in personal attacks and run away with tail between your legs.

    Still no reply… to my SIMPLE question from so called ‘knowledgeables’,,, all i asked, Is there one God or many???

  • Jeannie Antia

    In the ancient times we … the Zoroastrians … gave out of reasons of charity our dead body to the vultures, so that they too could have a feast.

    This was in the ancient times without chemical bombs in the bodies of the dead.

    In todays days it is murder … murder to the birds … to give them bodies filled with chemicals to feast on.

    Fire is clean … leaves only ashes … that’s why I recommend to let the Holy Fire touch the dead bodies from the ones we love and cherish!

    Jeannie

  • ANTI-Dhongidox

    Jeannie,
    There are no Vultures left, i.e. of the bird specie in the City of Mumbai, though there are abundant “Vultures “ of a different variety, who put on Sudheh, Kusti to demonstrate their “religiousness”. Those who endlessly preached about the Aviary project assume that their earlier ranting will be forgotten. Aviary was impractical but nonetheless they argued for the sake of reading their names on this blog.
    Why these ever sacrificing saviours do not want burial that is an another issue. When the corpses accumulate over each other, they are pushed down into the pits. And the pits definitely are on Land. So these established dhongis cannot claim that Land is not being ‘polluted’. The apprehension of these land shark dhongis is that once burial is permitted, the graves would remain for a long time and their dream of profiteering by selling the land in the premium locality would not see the light of the day even if their progeny became Trustees after 14 years.
    Got it. These are the true colours of ‘pious orthodox’ who would like to muzzle the Media by using their money power. And they have partly succeeded since the JAME Weakly, I am told, has become a mouthpiece of BPP. I do not read it but thats the Opinion of many genuine and concerned Parsees. All the alleged irregularities earlier appearing as headlines of this ‘weakly’ have given place to all goody goody stuff. Those who subscribe to this paper, (earlier called as RAG on this blog by knowalls) say that the credibility element of the ‘Weakly’ as a News Paper is missing. In this country, people know of Emergency and the “Censorship’ of the Press in 1976. The resultant outcome is known to all. Perhaps, for our Community the History may repeat itself in the next BPP Elections.
    By the way, I am posting this after Office hours. so that I too can pretend that I am reading this portal ‘after a hard day’s work’.

  • Farzana

    Jeannie,

    in the ancient times, the number of deaths due to frequent battles and epidemics were higher than expected. Not everyone who had lost their loved ones had funds to buy a burial space in the limited burial grounds that was reserved for royalties and for the rich + famous of the times.

    So the method of disposing the death by leaving them on the open isolated spot frequented by scavenger birds and animals was devised as the best method of solving the problem.

    Again as you rightly said, the scavenger birds and animals were not exposed to the ‘chemical bombs in the bodies of the dead’ nor were people living in the industrialized cities that had scared away wild animals and birds.
    So the times were different. The problems faced by the people were different and as Anti dhongi has rightly pointed out…’there are no Vultures left in cities to feed on the bodies.’ So one has to be realistic.

    In fact the sole reason for the survival of Zoroastrianism for thousands of years after Zarathushtra was because Zoroastrians of the earlier times were innovative and undertook practical modifications of the religion more realistically.

    Such innovations are necessary and are based on purely ‘survival of the fittest’ theory that says- One has to adapt to the changing habitat or get wiped out.

  • Jeannie Antia

    Farzana, thank you for these deep informations on us Zoroastrians and the deep insight into our ancient customs. It always is a pleasure reading what you have to say.

    You are a fine lady with a sharp mind and words so well used like words should be used!

    Jeannie

  • Farzana

    Thank you dear Jeannie, for the kind words. 🙂

  • FUNDAMENTALIST.

    I RECOLLECT HEARING A DHONGI TRUSTEE STATING IN A MEETING AT DPC THAT NAOROJI WAS JUST A PHOTOGRAPHER AND AVIARY WAS FEASIBLE. THEREAFTER A YEAR HAS PASSED AND THIS DHONGI TRUSTEE IS EVADING THE TOPIC OF SETTING UP OF AVIARY. WHY? HAS HE NOT FOOLED THE TRUE TRADITIONALISTS & ORTHODOX.

  • Jeannie Antia

    Again a tyranide of accusations!

  • Rasahna

    So if some volunteers from Navroze Baug enter the precincts of Dakhmas, Talesams are NOT broken but if a Parsee Zoroastrian Trustee entered, Talesam was broken.
    What about the entry of Pall bearers, do they undergo Nahan Ceremony each time.

  • Shaimak Madon

    Dhabhar who represents a Scholar lobby has said hereabove that entry of a Trustee ‘entering the precinct of the Dakhma the required Nahn should be taken before and after which was not done. This is to prevent Drujih from spreading and contaminating the environment and the general public.’
    MY QUESTION TOI THIS SCHOLAR IS = DO THE PALL BEARERS TAKE NAHAN EVERY TIME THEY ENTER AND EXIT ? THIS QUESTION IS PERTINENT SINCE THE PALL BEARERS ALSO DOUBLE UP TO PERFORM THE JOB OF BRINGING THE CORPSE FROM HOSPITAL OR THE RESIDENCE TO THE BUNGLI.

    Another question to this Scholar is are all pall bearers ‘pure’ Parsees born from parents both of them being Parsees? This question stems from Dhabhars statement hereabove that entry of juddins entails breaking of Talesam.
    And yes whosover you are TRUE REFORMIST ZOROASTRIAN, you are most welcome to enlighten us with your profound knowledge of Religion.

  • Shaimak Madon

    “The aviary project suiting the dokhmenishini system is challenging.Infact the aviary project with regards to vulture is challenging yet has met sucess worldwide.’ So spake the great (!) Scholar Jamasji on the 12th Nov 2009.
    So can he now tell us the progress in this direction made by BPP. More so since he has claimed that aviary project met ‘sucess’ worldwide, though he does not say the environmental conditions under which it gained success.
    AND SO IF BPP HAS NOT BEEN SUCCESSFUL DESPITE ITS CLAIMED SUCCESS WORLDWIDE, WHO IS TO BLAME.
    SUCH BLOGGERS TALK BIG AND WHEN EXPOSED DISAPPEAR FROM ONE FORUM TO REAPPEAR ON ANOTHER MODE OF MEDIA LIKE PUPPET JAMETO HOODWINK THE POPULACE.
    And only a controlled/ regimented media will allow publication of views of drones.

  • Shaimak Madon

    “Now since many people in india eat pork, are u going to attribute it to islam or since muslims adhere to halal meat in India, attribute this to the rajputs!!?” Rutom Jamas thus gave a reply to one Piloo.
    So my question to this traditional minded, god fearing and deeply religious Jamasji is thus: JUST BECAUSE IN ABSENCE OF AN ALTERNATIVE FACILITY FOR DISPOSAL OF DEAD MOST PASIS GET CONSIGNED TO DAKHMAS DOES NOT SUO MOTO IMPLY THAT IT IS A PART OF ZOROASTRIAN SYSTEM
    Come on can any skewed scholar give me a cogent reply.

  • Shaimak Madon

    On 21st Nov 2009 ,trhe great Scholar Rustom Jamas replied to one Piloo “Now since many people in india eat pork, are u going to attribute it to islam or since muslims adhere to halal meat in India, attribute this to the rajputs!!?”
    So my question to this traditional minded, god fearing and deeply religious Jamasji is thus: JUST BECAUSE IN ABSENCE OF AN ALTERNATIVE FACILITY FOR DISPOSAL OF DEAD MOST PARSIS GET CONSIGNED TO DAKHMAS DOES NOT SUO MOTO IMPLY THAT IT IS A PART OF ZOROASTRIAN SYSTEM?
    Come on can any skewed scholar give me a cogent reply.

  • Rathestar

    Shaimak,
    An excellent retort. I like that anology of yours that if some Muslims are pork eaters does not mean that all eat so similarly if some idiots compel majority of bawas to opt for dokhmenashi despite it being defunct does not mean that the failed system is workable.
    You really have an art of making the opposite person put his foot in the mouth.

  • Dorab.

    @ Shiamak,
    Some persons can never reconcile to realities and the person referred to by you is an example of rigidity. Let them earn their five minutes of fame in a weeky, which their mentor described as ‘weakly’ and weakly it is indeed now.
    Another 12 months down the line, their present ‘loud thinking’/
    ‘erudite’ views may become too hot a potatoe for them.
    God bless.

  • Zerxes Dordi.

    Mr. Jamasji.,
    Any progress in  direction of setting up Aviary.Your post is over a year old by now and what I find is another tall building coming up adjacent to Dakhmas  and your Messiah is a Trustee since Nov 2008 but has done nothing in this matter. Tut Tut, you  must be feeling badly let down. How disappointing. Do reply, if you can for my better knowledge.

  • Zerxes Dordi.

    Mr. Jamasji.,
    Any progress in  direction of setting up Aviary.Your post is over a year old by now and what I find is another tall building coming up adjacent to Dakhmas  and your Messiah is a Trustee since Nov 2008 but has done nothing in this matter. Tut Tut, you  must be feeling badly let down. How disappointing. Do reply, if you can for my better knowledge.

  • Contradhongi.

    Mr. Dordi,  If you are expecting a reply your wait will be till eternity. Have you not observed the conspicuous absence of such  ‘Orthodox & Traditionalists’ , who were once blogging on this portal every day to make thmselves prominent in the community. After calling others bird brains and deformists, these Elephant brains are experiencing amnesia.So spare them further ignominy. Their limitations have been badly exposed.

  • Contradhongi.

    Mr. Dordi,  If you are expecting a reply your wait will be till eternity. Have you not observed the conspicuous absence of such  ‘Orthodox & Traditionalists’ , who were once blogging on this portal every day to make thmselves prominent in the community. After calling others bird brains and deformists, these Elephant brains are experiencing amnesia.So spare them further ignominy. Their limitations have been badly exposed.

  • A DISILLUSIONED ORTHODOX

     This article is dated Nov 2009. Thereafter , two and a half years have passed. We have “Scholar” Priests having done research in foreign Universities and posted as Principal of  a  monastery saying in a weekly paper that the system has only weakened and needs to be strengthened.
    I have a couple of questions in this regard to .Council of High Priests.Firstly, during the last two and a half years after publication of this article, what  tangible steps have been taken to  ‘strengthen’  the system?Secondly, many religious minded Orthodox would like to know if (a) Spraying bovine urine (b) Applying “Herbal’ powder (euphemism for Acid)    (c) Releasing Ozone gas are in consonance with the actual concept of Khurshed Nigarshini?Lastly we all would like to know the nature of steps intended to be taken in next couple of years to ‘strengthen’ the system and the time lag for such steps to yield results. We, as a community have heard these words like ‘time tested’ and ‘strengthening the system’ for now too ling a period to believe in such false platitudes devoid of any tangible outcome. The present practice is a mixture of exposure to sun cum indirect burning of the dead body cum burial.This is an open letter to Council of High Priests and they owe it to the Community to offer point-wise answers. If no point wise answers are provided by them either on this forum or through Parsee press, it will be assumed that they desire to keep the community in the dark by not furnishing facts and feeding a set of oft repeated platitudes to hoodwink the common Parsee. 

  • A DISILLUSIONED ORTHODOX

     This article is dated Nov 2009. Thereafter , two and a half years have passed. We have “Scholar” Priests having done research in foreign Universities and posted as Principal of  a  monastery saying in a weekly paper that the system has only weakened and needs to be strengthened.
    I have a couple of questions in this regard to .Council of High Priests.Firstly, during the last two and a half years after publication of this article, what  tangible steps have been taken to  ‘strengthen’  the system?Secondly, many religious minded Orthodox would like to know if (a) Spraying bovine urine (b) Applying “Herbal’ powder (euphemism for Acid)    (c) Releasing Ozone gas are in consonance with the actual concept of Khurshed Nigarshini?Lastly we all would like to know the nature of steps intended to be taken in next couple of years to ‘strengthen’ the system and the time lag for such steps to yield results. We, as a community have heard these words like ‘time tested’ and ‘strengthening the system’ for now too ling a period to believe in such false platitudes devoid of any tangible outcome. The present practice is a mixture of exposure to sun cum indirect burning of the dead body cum burial.This is an open letter to Council of High Priests and they owe it to the Community to offer point-wise answers. If no point wise answers are provided by them either on this forum or through Parsee press, it will be assumed that they desire to keep the community in the dark by not furnishing facts and feeding a set of oft repeated platitudes to hoodwink the common Parsee. 

  • Piloomani

    I request all the scholars and priest to stop the practice of dokhmenishini system which has absolutely failed. Let the community get on with other things in life and not be so much concerned as to death.  The community should concentrate on other important things like community sense which does not prevail.  We should start with burial system which is prevailing in Iran (Yazd) and accepted by the original Zoroastrians of Iran.  We have enough space at Doongerwadi for the system.  Why force us to follow a system which is obsolete due to lack of birds. Have a clean system like burial or crematorium.

  • Piloomani

    I request all the scholars and priest to stop the practice of dokhmenishini system which has absolutely failed. Let the community get on with other things in life and not be so much concerned as to death.  The community should concentrate on other important things like community sense which does not prevail.  We should start with burial system which is prevailing in Iran (Yazd) and accepted by the original Zoroastrians of Iran.  We have enough space at Doongerwadi for the system.  Why force us to follow a system which is obsolete due to lack of birds. Have a clean system like burial or crematorium.

  • P.Dubash.

    Six Reasons Why Vultures may be dying in IndiaMarch 7, 2011by Atula
    Pune based NGO Ela Foundation and the National Institute of Virology (NIV) have recently published a research paper that analyses the cause of drastic fall in the vulture population of India. While many believe the main reason for the deaths is use of Diclofenac, a chemical that is fatal to the birds, the research papers suggests other reasons too including electrocution.“It has been reported that the two species of vultures, the Oriental White-backed Vulture and the Long-billed Vulture Gyps indicus, have declined in population by more than 90 per cent throughout India. It was believed that morbid birds exhibit signs of illness (neck drooping syndrome) for approximately 30 days prior to death. We undertook further investigations on this bird, as vultures are threatened with extinction and, therefore, it is of utmost importance to investigate the causes of morbidity and mortality in these birds,” said ornithologist Satish Pande from the Ela Foundation, which is also the principal investigator.
    Here are the six top reasons according to the researchers for the rapid decline of vulture population in India.
    1. Electrocution The researchers had rescued an Oriental White-backed Vulture, Gyps bengalensis, which was found in an open field at Bhangaon village in Shrigonda taluka. They conducted studies on the bird and found that it was emaciated but was not poisoned.Shailesh Pawar, Scientist-B, Avian Influenza, NIV, said, “Blood, serum, cloacal, faecal and tracheal swabs of the bird were collected and tested at the National Institute of Virology (NIV). There was no evidence of blood parasites or blood infection like malaria or Avian Influenza viruses.”
    When the bird was eventually released, it unfortunately got electrocuted from electricity wires almost 60 km away from the point of release. The researchers thus believe that electrocution, a reason hitherto not mentioned might be leading to more number of vulture deaths.
    “Electrocution from overhead electricity wires is another reason cited in the research, because the larger the bird and its wing span, the higher the chances of electrocution. Some other species that are threatened due to electrocution are Great Indian Bustard, Saras Crane and some species of Eagles,” said Pande.
    2. Food Shortage Another reason for the decline in vulture population quoted by the experts is shortage of food. This is because the central government has given a directive to villagers to bury the carcasses of dead animals in order to keep villages clean. While the effort is good, the lack of animal carcasses leaves the vulture hungry and without food.
    One major reason is shortage of food. As per government’s directions under theGram Swachata Abhiyan, livestock carcasses have to be buried and not left outside. This has led to a major reduction in food for vultures.” Said Pande.
    3. DiclofenacThe people of Ela Foundation do not believe that this chemical is harming the vultures as much as projected. This is because the shelf life of Diclofenac is 6 hours and if the vultures do eat the carcasses of animals who have been administered the drug, the chances of the chemical reaching their body is very less.
    Pande believes that though the use of the chemical may be one of the causes for the vulture deaths, it may not be the sole reason as the drug has also been banned from use and its usage has reduced if not totally stopped.
    “Diclofenac led them to be afflicted with a disease called Gout, leading to organ dysfunction. The authorities therefore banned the drug. But the vultures are on the decline, more so since 1985. Diclofenac poisoning is therefore not the only cause. Only few vultures have hitherto been known to have died of diclofenac poisoning. The decline has therefore been due to a number of causes,” said Pande.
    4. MalariaSome of the vultures they studied were found to be suffering from Malaria. This had led them to conclude that this too may be one of the reasons vultures are dying in the wild.
    5. PesticidesMany farmers spray cattle carcasses with the pesticide such as Organo-chlorineand Organo-phosphorous to prevent them from spreading foul odour. This pesticide infested carcass may be eaten by the vulture leading to its death. The scientists have found instances where hundreds of vultures have died this way.
    6. Lack of Nesting Trees Some species of vulture like the Oriental White-backed Vulture prefer to make their nest on coconut trees. But when the trees are chopped off, the vultures lose their home. Some trees may also wither away due to the frequent vulture droppings on the trees, and therefore many times they are cut even though they are healthy.
    There are therefore of reasons leading to decline in vulture population. If the concept of vulture restaurants already started in few locations in India is taken to various parts of the country, it may serve as a beneficial and safe way to provide vultures with food and help them live longer.- Atula Gupta.
    REPRODUCED FOR THE BENEFIT OF READERS WHO WOULD OTHERWISE GET MISGUIDED BY FALSE NOTIONS BEING SPREAD BY VESTED INTERESTS.

  • P.Dubash.

    Six Reasons Why Vultures may be dying in IndiaMarch 7, 2011by Atula
    Pune based NGO Ela Foundation and the National Institute of Virology (NIV) have recently published a research paper that analyses the cause of drastic fall in the vulture population of India. While many believe the main reason for the deaths is use of Diclofenac, a chemical that is fatal to the birds, the research papers suggests other reasons too including electrocution.“It has been reported that the two species of vultures, the Oriental White-backed Vulture and the Long-billed Vulture Gyps indicus, have declined in population by more than 90 per cent throughout India. It was believed that morbid birds exhibit signs of illness (neck drooping syndrome) for approximately 30 days prior to death. We undertook further investigations on this bird, as vultures are threatened with extinction and, therefore, it is of utmost importance to investigate the causes of morbidity and mortality in these birds,” said ornithologist Satish Pande from the Ela Foundation, which is also the principal investigator.
    Here are the six top reasons according to the researchers for the rapid decline of vulture population in India.
    1. Electrocution The researchers had rescued an Oriental White-backed Vulture, Gyps bengalensis, which was found in an open field at Bhangaon village in Shrigonda taluka. They conducted studies on the bird and found that it was emaciated but was not poisoned.Shailesh Pawar, Scientist-B, Avian Influenza, NIV, said, “Blood, serum, cloacal, faecal and tracheal swabs of the bird were collected and tested at the National Institute of Virology (NIV). There was no evidence of blood parasites or blood infection like malaria or Avian Influenza viruses.”
    When the bird was eventually released, it unfortunately got electrocuted from electricity wires almost 60 km away from the point of release. The researchers thus believe that electrocution, a reason hitherto not mentioned might be leading to more number of vulture deaths.
    “Electrocution from overhead electricity wires is another reason cited in the research, because the larger the bird and its wing span, the higher the chances of electrocution. Some other species that are threatened due to electrocution are Great Indian Bustard, Saras Crane and some species of Eagles,” said Pande.
    2. Food Shortage Another reason for the decline in vulture population quoted by the experts is shortage of food. This is because the central government has given a directive to villagers to bury the carcasses of dead animals in order to keep villages clean. While the effort is good, the lack of animal carcasses leaves the vulture hungry and without food.
    One major reason is shortage of food. As per government’s directions under theGram Swachata Abhiyan, livestock carcasses have to be buried and not left outside. This has led to a major reduction in food for vultures.” Said Pande.
    3. DiclofenacThe people of Ela Foundation do not believe that this chemical is harming the vultures as much as projected. This is because the shelf life of Diclofenac is 6 hours and if the vultures do eat the carcasses of animals who have been administered the drug, the chances of the chemical reaching their body is very less.
    Pande believes that though the use of the chemical may be one of the causes for the vulture deaths, it may not be the sole reason as the drug has also been banned from use and its usage has reduced if not totally stopped.
    “Diclofenac led them to be afflicted with a disease called Gout, leading to organ dysfunction. The authorities therefore banned the drug. But the vultures are on the decline, more so since 1985. Diclofenac poisoning is therefore not the only cause. Only few vultures have hitherto been known to have died of diclofenac poisoning. The decline has therefore been due to a number of causes,” said Pande.
    4. MalariaSome of the vultures they studied were found to be suffering from Malaria. This had led them to conclude that this too may be one of the reasons vultures are dying in the wild.
    5. PesticidesMany farmers spray cattle carcasses with the pesticide such as Organo-chlorineand Organo-phosphorous to prevent them from spreading foul odour. This pesticide infested carcass may be eaten by the vulture leading to its death. The scientists have found instances where hundreds of vultures have died this way.
    6. Lack of Nesting Trees Some species of vulture like the Oriental White-backed Vulture prefer to make their nest on coconut trees. But when the trees are chopped off, the vultures lose their home. Some trees may also wither away due to the frequent vulture droppings on the trees, and therefore many times they are cut even though they are healthy.
    There are therefore of reasons leading to decline in vulture population. If the concept of vulture restaurants already started in few locations in India is taken to various parts of the country, it may serve as a beneficial and safe way to provide vultures with food and help them live longer.- Atula Gupta.
    REPRODUCED FOR THE BENEFIT OF READERS WHO WOULD OTHERWISE GET MISGUIDED BY FALSE NOTIONS BEING SPREAD BY VESTED INTERESTS.