Parsi Priests Challenge BPP Decision after Ban

Khushru_MadonZoroastrian priest banned by the apex community trust challenges its decision; says he will not stop conducting rituals for mixed-marriage Parsis

A Zoroastrian priest – who was banned from praying at the Towers of Silence and fire temples because he has been conducting Navjotes (initiation ceremonies) for children from mixed marriages and offering after-death prayers for cremated Parsis – said he will continue to offer religious services regardless of the ban.

In a letter published in the latest edition of community weekly Jam-e-Jamshed, the priest Khushroo Madon said that he would continue to perform those Navjotes, and even solemnise weddings of Parsis to those from outside the community. And said that he did not consider those rituals ‘irreligious’.

“I will keep performing the Navjotes and weddings of mixed Parsees as the same is approved by the highly-learned and revered Vada Dasturjis (high priests),” Madon wrote in his letter.

getimageLast month, trustees of Bombay Parsi Punchayet (BPP), which manages the Towers of Silence or Doongerwadi on Malabar hill, had issued an order barring Madon and another priest, Faramroz Mirza, from conducting prayers at the cemetery and at fire temples controlled by the trust.

“He may say whatever he wants to. But does he have the scholarship to make the contention that his actions are not irreligious. Madon is welcome to his personal point of view, but we have to look in terms of what the community wants and the majority are with us,” said BPP trustee Khojeste Mistree. “The previous board of the BPP had also taken the position that the two priests should be banned from the Towers of Silence and fire temples controlled by the trust. We are only implementing the decision of the earlier board. Whatever has to be done will be done,” he added.

But Madon said he was not worried about the ban.

A decade ago it was estimated that one out of every three Parsis married out of the community. And now, the figure is said to have risen to almost 40 per cent.

“For the last ten years, I have performed Navjotes of children born to inter-religious couples. I have also offered prayers for Parsis who opted to be cremated. I will continue to offer these services,” he said. “I am not bothered by the ban. I do not practice at the Towers of Silence or at fire temples. I do not want anything from there. Those who call me for prayers usually decide the place.”

Original article here.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    On what basis K Mistree says that ‘majority is with us’? Take a referendum, if you want to justify your contention. In absence of facilities for those who opt for alternative methods of disposal and arm twisting by Agiary Priests, Parsees are left with no option but to consign their deceased to Doongerwadi despite reservations. That does not imply ‘majority’are opting for this ‘method’.
    By the way, if WAPIZ and its supporters have moral strength on this issue, let them clarify:

    – How Uthamna of JRD was performed ?.
    – How it was allowed to be performed at Doongerwadi by BPP trustees?
    – What adjective they will use against those priests who performed Wadia Navjotes, other than the term ‘renegade’
    -Were these actions ‘religious.

    Instead of precipitating matters
    and becoming a talk of the town for other communities, BPP Trustees should act in statesman like manner and hand over one Agiary say, Godavara under their control to so called ‘reformists’.This Agiary is a liability for BPP and is selling well water to tankers, which is not an object under the Trust Deed.
    Such an action will put an end to needless controversy, once for all. Obstinacy and coercion will lead the community nowhere.
    Besides BPP is a charitable Trust meant to govern Trusts and not poke its nose in Religios affairs.

  • phiroz

    So if BPP Trustee Mistree’s logic is to be accepted and extended to its logical level then the high priests did not have ‘scholarship’ and acted in an ‘irreligious’ way when they performed Wadia Navjotes.
    Or like the Popes before Reformation, they have ‘authority’ to practice double standards. JAI HO.
    What example are we setting for our younger generation!

  • Meher Toorkey

    I am glad that there is atleast one dastoor who is prepared to defy the powers that decree our outdated laws which do not change wih the times.
    My mother Amy Toorkey died in an excellent care facility in Neral. Due to Maharashtra laws her body could not be brought back to Mumbai and we were forced to cremate her in Karjat.
    Nobody was prepared to say the prayers for her in Mumbai.
    My sole reaction was complete disgust with these dastoors coupled with a rage and a feeling that my mother was a good woman who did not need the prayers of cowardly chauvinistic old fuddy duddies to make her spiritual journey.
    I can only cheer this brave dastoor on and hope that more will follow in his foot steps.

  • piloo

    Meher,
    What is the need of the hour is a dedicated group of individuals willing to spend time before Charity Commissioner’s Office questioning two things.
    Firstly, does the Trust Deed of the concerned Fire Temple permit this type of discrimination based on disposal of mortal remains?
    Secondly, since many Agiaries ‘sell” Well water,whether the Truste Deed permits such commercialisation. If this is put to an end, many Agiaries will be on their knees due to financial burden of maintaining premises.
    The crusade should be on the same lines as is being pursued by a group labelled as AZA for housing.How many are willing to join this effort?

  • rustom jamasji

    So are you angry at the Maharashtra law or zoroastrianism?

    Zoroastrianism is a millenia old, maybe you would call zarathushtra fuddy… duddy yet his principles are in tune with time…Yet Zoroastrianism is studied in various universities like Harward and cambridge and its principles appreciated and also time tested.

    I guess for some einsteins principles of Archimedes laws should change with time…IF IT DOES NOT PERSONALY SUIT ONE…
    Yeah even the ISLAMISTS WHO WANTED TO ISLAMISE all zoroastrians gave the same excuse that we should change…AS WE HAVE OLD!! LAWS…

    and lastly… call the abiders of laws set by the Savioirs of Zoroastrians as Talibanistic, (implying that those who se the laws, i.e saviour of Zoroastriansim were also talibinistic) while ignoring ONES OWN ACTIONS and the fact that Talibanistic attitude actually deposes from recognising any rules though not being forced upon, yet thrusting its view on all and calling everything not studied and understood as old, fuddy, bad etc…

    Id like to know about the law stated..as bodies have been brought from abroad and other states into mumbai…and if so…maybe on a positive aproach…if theres a problem, getting it sorted..

  • Ervad Khushroo Madon

    August 4,2009.

    To
    Mr.Manoj Nair,
    Mumbai Mirror.

    Dear Mr. Manoj,

    In today”s Mumbai Mirror you have given an article on front page ‘DEFIANCE’

    As per our telecon today I want to clarify that I have never said * “I am not bothered by the ban.I do not practice at the Towers of Silence or at fire temples.I do not want anything from there.” as mentioned by you on page 9.*

    What I have mentioned in my reply published in Jame(article enclosed herewith) “*Hence I will continue to perform the four days ceremonies at Doongerwadi and elsewhere as and when called by any person at any time.” is my correct version.*

    You said that I phoned you at 3.00 p.m. on Sunday and told you this. I never phoned you on Sunday at about 3.00 p.m. but only phoned you on Sunday at about 8.00 p.m. It seems some one in my name is phoning you and playing mischief. So henceforth it is my request that you kindly clarify with me personally and take from me in writing before you publish.

    Also for your information a few days after they had passed the resolution in BPP board, on Monday July 20,2009 I had prayed at Doongerwadi(Tower of Silence) whole day from 7.00 am to 4.00 p.m. and no one stopped me.

    I HEREBY REQUEST YOU TO PLEASE GIVE THE ABOVE CORRECTION IN YOUR TOMORROW”S MUMBAI MIRROR.

    Thanking you,

    With warm regards,

    Ervad Khushroo Madon.

  • Meher Toorkey

    Mr Rustom Jamasji
    Nowhere in my little comment did I criticise Zoroastrianism: only the priests who take it upon themselves to make the rules & the BPP for banning a forward thinking dastoor. And no, I am not angry with the Maharashtra laws either.
    I said that I was enraged that not one dastoor was prepared to say the last rite prayers for my mother merely because she was cremated out of necessity, not choice, and that secondly, I really do not care as she does not need the prayers of fuddy duddy priests who refuse to change with the times and might I add, put laws before common humanity.

  • Meher Toorkey

    Also, Mr jamasji, you might like to think about the sad state of the towers of silence where bodies are left to rot & decompose in the hot sun in full view of the many high rises, as the vultures have too sadly disappeared in an increasingly urban landscape.Throwing our corpses to the vultures was a wonderful thing in Zarathrustra’s time: ecologically sound & in full keeping with charitable principles.I wonder what the prophet would have preached if he had lived in modern Mumbai as to the disposal of our remains!
    Maybe you need to think about this before you proselytise about ancient laws always being best, and how our ancestors stood up to Islamic persecution etc etc.

  • Soonoo Taraporewala

    I have read Ervad Khushroo Madon’s letter which was published in the Jame Jamshed dated 2 August 2009. I feel he needs to be commended for his principled stand rather than being condemned and banned for “irreligious” practices. I would urge that it is irreligious to deny the solace of prayer to those of our community who opt for a method of disposal of the dead other than the Dokhmenashini practice. While I have nothing against Dokhmenashini, it seems dogmatic and unpragmatic to continue with the practice, especially in view of the sad fact of the dying out of vultures all over our country. And it is irrational in the extreme to insist on Dokhmenashini as the only option for the consignment of the Parsi dead in the city of Mumbai, when Parsis who die in places where there are no dokhmas are either buried or cremated, and have all the prayers said for them with no risk to their wellbeing in the hereafter.

    As to the other point raised by Ervad Madon, that the other reason for his being banned for irreligious practices is that he conducts the navjotes of children born in families where one of the spouses is a Parsi and the other is not: surely a Parsi parent is entitled to decide whether he or she wishes to have his or her child inducted into the religion in which he or she was brought up? And surely it is beyond the jurisdiction of an institution like the Bombay Parsee Punchayet (BPP), whose brief is to manage the Parsi properties in the city, to issue orders regarding religious practices? Ervad Madon has also given a satisfactory reply to those who accuse him of continuing with his practices merely for monetary gain.

    It seems to me that Ervads Khushroo Madon and Framroze Mirza should be thanked for their courage in standing up to those dressed in a little brief authority who attempt to rob them of their livelihood in a very vindictive manner. By blinding themselves to changing circumstances, the BPP seems bent on driving our community to extinction, far from preserving it in its “pure” form. Eugenics has a dangerous precedent in our times, and has nothing to do with religion – rather the reverse. It is time that members of our community opened their eyes and minds, understood the holy books for themselves and thought for themselves instead of being (mis)led by self-proclaimed leaders and scholars.

  • rustom jamasji

    Hi Meher
    Its been a fashion to critisize the Priests..Even the sasanids are critisized by those who wanted to christianise persia. The Priests were butchered under Alexander, then St Varatn who burnt them and then extinguished agairy fires and then by islamists who if a zoro cudnt ay the tax wud kill one of them or ask for rel books in the weight to the man who cudn ay the tax to be burnt..

    Many say that those who have made these rules are mad, yet the sasanids whom i state again are called fanatics cause they put a stop to dis-linkage of zoroastrianism from Persia….and in the 300’s CE armenia broke up..

    The burkha is misrepresented as a persian dress and an article in the asian age some years back a lady tried and portray it as being zoroastrian ..till a poor priest pointed out that the zoro ladies on purpose never succumbed to this dress and showed their ankles and wrists ..the lady n her family wd them be persecuted according to islamic laws..till date they wud not cover their head with black scarfes n wear coloured or whites…if the priest had not writen a hand written letter and afforded to post it, our history wud be mutilated..once again…

    When we blame the priests and the laws as theirs, then we blame Sir Jeevanji Modi though his chest was full of honors from germany, france etc for his knowledge and putting back in place and promoting the why’s and hows of the rules laid down by the Saviours of Zoroastrianism..you also condemn many a ladies..that built fire temples , put in place priests and laws that governed the same…ironically these ladies also gave charity to poor zoro in Iran n built housing for them…

    A temple in Baku.. had the boi ceremony due to a lone priest..

    A fire temple in a remote village in gujrat in visited some years back has the ceremonies cause someone from the priests decided he cudnt let the holy flame to be extinguished…so stayed in a ramshakled house..

    In the last 100 years the priestly class’s class has definately taken a beating..why,,,we pay peanutes , an what them to be educated in matters studied at harward..! what respect do you give to them?…and call them idiotic, them old fuddy duddy cause they follow rules laid down by the savuious of zoroastrianism..

    Dr Kotwal was also cald fuddy duddy, ironcally those who cal him that wudnt stand a chance for even hearing lectures at harward and cambridge?/ are u saying he talks nonsense and his lsteners are stupid?..
    Yes all the priests may not be able to explain to you the whys n hows of z’ism but we reself have never read the bundaish or denkard or any zoroastrian texts..

    if i may i wud like to give a a classic example of 2 days back…
    as the muktaad days are here according to the ancient rel, the fravashis which are older and duddier come to the place where in mazda has created a time bound place..i.e earth, and we thru r prayers console them, and they in turn may bless us…they ofcourse come to a place wherein zoro rituals r conductred n performed n abstain from places anti zoroastrian in philosophy…

    Snakes in zoroastrian philosophy are miscreations..now the the folowers of nag devi have a snake symbol and after being requested and urged that they should not bring them in, cudnt careless..the rules are not made by the priest nor laity, they r following them..the agiry is built by a poor man, a chef called rustom framna and laws put down in accordane with zoroasrian philosophy…

    The whole comunty has waited 10 days for the muktaad, we have iniated the invtaion acording to zoro principles, the priests have taken leave from work to do their duty….i am in India so tat i cud enjoin my bretern n family at this grand hour..the atash niyash asks us ‘what does the standing friend bring for the sitting friend .. n we have those who even on muktaad days bring in exactly what mazda talks against…whom are we insulting…n why…if I were to tell them to remve their batch n respect the sentiments of the makers of such places, you wud say im talibanistic!!! OLD FUDDY DUDDY etc…..but arnt the ones who cudnt careless being talibinistic?,
    you have a rght to say that this is all fuddy duddy stuff, old, i wud respect ure view on it, wont force you to a place wherein u feel its humbug…yet wud think it wrong if you demanded that zoroastrian philosophy be changed and rules ammended..n anti zoro sentiments allowed just because some one foloows snakes , dont i have the right to continue to practise zoroastriansims as left by the saviours of zoroastrianism, doesnt Rustom framna have a right that his wishes be maintained after his death when he has left behind something generations have used…only to be vitilated due somones disagrerance with zoroastrian philosophy yet adamancy to bring it in a zoroastrian place of worship..

    wud they morally take a picture of a pig in a mosque a temple or a church, wud u proclaim Khusro Parviz , a King that withstood byzantine pressure to break persia into a church?

    The community needs introspection, especially after nearly a century of ignoring zoroastrian texts, the whys of it, ignoring the importance of the priestly class and now to alter zoroastrianism to suit ones personal needs…

    The phsycology of the comunity is at a short fuse, since many a rules are broken,many think its their birthright to demand change, and break rules as pointed above…
    Some take advantage of the situation…

    In any case do please let me know the law that hampered the transit to mumbai of your departed mother and in I would try and take the mater up, wheather i am sucessfull or not, I do not know, but it may help others positively…

  • piloo

    Lectures at Cambridge and other Universities are got sponsored.Who pays for their Air/ Travel Tickets? Why WAPIZ complianed that they were not invited for WZO Meet? Those who practice double standards and treat their fellow humdins depending on the economic status are bereft of principles and if indeed they were so popular, why they do not deliver their sholastic discourses and homilies in Mumbai.? No body questions the academic attainments of some of our priests but their practice of double standards for material gains has damaged the respect laity had for them a couple of decades back.
    Dear Meher and Soonoo,my past experience on this blog suggests that one individual on this present board wants to portray himself as an authority on all religions, history,geography, life science and any subjects you name it. His main aim is not to contribute to exchage of ideas but to eagerly read his name appearing on the blog.Let this blogger ask manual workers in Agiaries, particularly during Muktads, about their (menial workers) parentage. Lalias are being employed for cleaning and shifting Afringans.For those who still mentally live in the 19th Century, no amount of relities can enter their minds.
    Our Aatash Padshahs enthroned in various Fire Temples are strong enough to withstand any ‘evil’ eye of a non Parsee. Not that I am supporting entries of non Zoroastrians in our place of worship.But to undertake a ‘purificatory’ ceremony to cleanse our holy fires is an abject insult to our sacred fires.

  • Religious but Rational.

    No body on this Board has justified Parsees wearing symbols of other Religions and entering Agiaries. But issue here is whether we can observe certain cutoms, rites, rituals and practices which were practicable some 40 years back.
    1)Will any boarder clarify why the period of Muktads has been reduced from 18 days to 10 days.
    2) Are all(repeat ALL) Agiaries
    to- day able to pray Afringan, Faroxi, and Baaj individully for all the departed?
    3) Do all those attending Navjotes/ Weddings and other religious functions wear traditional Phenta/ Pugree, Dugli?
    Disposal of corpses has nothing to do with Religion. It is part of custom.Meher is absolutely correct when she states that if our reverred prophet were present in present day Mumbai,he too would have had second thoughts on our so called ‘system’ of disposal of dead.
    4) Persia was a rocky terrain. At the relevant time tools to dig the rocky ground were not available. Electricity was definitely not discovered. Thus the system of exposure to elements was found to be the best at the relevant time.
    5) Was Sudreh that we wear to day made from Tata Mull Mull 1300 years ago?.
    One boarder above has suggested taking a “Referendum” on the issue. Why nor accept this and set at rest this controversy once for all?
    6)Did we not adapt to changing circumstances.How many families still practice ostrasization of females in their monthly menses?Some people with closed minds can never grow up and label all others who disagree with their obsolete ideas as ‘irreligious’ as though they have monopoly and exclusive God bestowed knowledge of our Religion.
    Need of the hour is to organise for betterment of our small community instead of running down each other.Hope wisewr counsel will prevail

  • Anti Dhongidox

    R J talks of RULES. According to me, a lay person, RULES are always codified. Remember, Hamurabi.So I want to know:
    (i)In which Zoroastran Scriptural Text it is said that mortal remains should be consigned on mountain tops? I would like to be enlightened about the exact scriptural reference not a long discourse on religious persecution 1300 years back.
    (ii) Which Religious scripture suggested even remotely, Solar Panels to be installed. Does their installation not amounts to ‘ignoring Zoroastran texts”?
    (iii) After Jadi Rana, west Coast of India was taken over by East India Co and after 1857 by the British Crown. Thereafter, the Government of India Acts of 1919 & 1935 were enacted. Later, all Indians are governed by the Constitution of the Republic.Why then talk of promises to Jadi Rana.What is the relevance.?
    Also, I do not wish to discuss issues with any individual who believes that all persons 5 generations back were superior in character to present generation and that future generation will be still worse than present one.Remember, 5 generations back, Parsees did not believe in monogamy and even profited from trade in opium.

  • Nairika K. Cornett

    Firstly, I want to talk about Khojeste Mistree’s comment, “but we have to look in terms of what the community wants and the majority are with us”. This is an extremely inflammatory and divisive statement, very George W. Bush-like in its nature. “Either you are with us or with them”. Mr. Mistree, most issues are not black or white. Your constant aim seems to be to ‘divide and conquer’. Our community has been reduced to front page mockery thanks to the likes of you. Like governments everywhere you like to bring attention to hot button issues ignoring serious and critical ones.

    Ervad Madon, I thank you for catering to those of us who feel no connection to those who have hijacked our religion. Even though I live in the U.S. (and there is no shortage here of priests like you, thank Ahura Mazda) I thank you for providing religious guidance and help to many in India. Please keep up your great work and do not be intimidated by thugs parading as Messiahs. You have a support system in many of us.

    Ahura Mazda is not a trade mark belonging to WAPIZ or the Panchayat. God willingly accepts those who serve humanity – Ervad Madon you are one such individual. Also, never be swayed by the majority for oftentimes it has been wrong. Keep your faith and may Ahura Mazda bless you and humanity.

  • rustom jamasji

    r but r..
    on ure…why make muktaads reduced from 18 days to 10 days..

    If you read history yll be able to find out.n know originaly muktaad was 10 days…ill direct you towards the point of history…it was during ardeshir’s time..ardeshir’s of the sasanian..
    Reason..in short..after alexandar the barbaran destroyed the biggest libraray in his orgy and burnt persopolis thrice as he was unsucessfull the first time he set fire and he cudnt understand the metrology used for the pillars specially..the zoroastrians lost a lot of data..and it was scattered to save them…many priests were burnt as they were living encyclopedias, and the z calender got a beating…
    what happened to us a 1000 years ago happened then that the zoro new year started shifting away from the vernial equinox…ARdeshir was one of the kings who started or restarted the process of collecting the ata, removing the chaff, and a historically big process began..and he wasnted the zoro calender to get back in tune…
    The zoro realised n calculated the time lost since the earth revolves in 365n a 1/4 days a year…and he put in place the 5 gatha days as we were loosing the 5 n a 1/4 day..
    So we got back 365 days…but the lay people never accepted this idea of the new king…who wanted to go back to his roots…the king then said he wants to follow zoroastrian roots and he built a calender which the people who understod zoro, n followed it…the second year again he tried and convinced his people …one must take into consideratin the era of that time, christianity was making mischief in Persia asking people to break away from zoroastrianism and rebel with zoro kings….
    The 3rd year the king again logically convinced his subject…and since the differenmce tween his calender as of roj hormazd was roj khordad od the other, they reached the compromis of 18 days…just to pacify the ignorant….and so that christianity has one less reason to instigate zoro people…

    2) on ure weaher al agiaries able to perfrom everything..

    ans) Perhaps no..as in the last 100 years we have made priesthood fall from the cream to the really poor, pay them peanuts, disrespect them yet want answers of what is studied in harward…yet the rituals are followed and now we are at a stage wherein if we dont study them, theyll die out..this shud be a waking call..

    3) ure point is correct, we are loosing our ways as in studying the religion…and in anycase the pheta was to cove te ehad like the cap n we dont do it ..something left about 50 yerars ago nwe keep loosing n forgetiing the why’s of it..

    4)the rocky mountain terrain thing is again warped armchair philosophy..as pointed out Alxandar cudnt understand what metrology was used, and that was the advancement of technology, i wud sugest u vistio persepolis, takt e jamsheed, Naqsh e Rustom and ure perception of them eing ignorant wud be wiped out by wiping out ure highanded ignorant’judgement’..
    another fact, the kings had sacrophogu’s built for them…even the arcasids or parthians or the sasanians accoriding to historialns, they built the places so that they do not pollute the eath, id recomend yu read Prof Mary Boyce’s books – -The zoroastrians…IN THE CHAPETR ..kINGS..and again ure misconception wud be rubbed out, how do u think they built the dakhmas..there is even a war dakhma..please do not underestimate your own forfathers

    need of the hour is ost give judgement without even reading about the subject..

  • rustom jamasji

    to Dhongi dox
    YEAH URE POINT IS AGAIN U ‘WANT’ BUT U WONT FIND OUT OR READ, and again u demand the answer in a way that u WANT it..in any case ill give them out..u may live in denial, yet it may help others..

    1) U ask which book states about dokhmenshini..?

    Ill give you the names…amongst others. Herodetus was one of the first to comment on this rituals..the vidaevetot, the persian riyaats, the daag i destan, are some..amongst others…
    Dr JevanJI mODI EXPAINS IN DETAIL in his’ The funral of the Parsis’, you can also refer to J.Hinells books, Prof Boyce’s and Rusells books and lecture series. You can also refer to other Rd Kharkhanawallas paper on the same and it shall throw light on the mode also.

    Also if you read historians who have studied zoroastrianism ull find that out about the same.
    Again wisdom would direct one towards the various archeological finding PRESENT even Today.

    Again the zoroastrian mode of dokhmenishini is also archeologically found amongst the lands of far east..presumably of the zoroastrians seeking refuge there and fusing into the large, leaving the zoro os india alone.

    U can read about russian, french, german and even Iranian teams discovering zoroastrian daxma in many places that were blooming with zoroastrians before the holocausts.

    And lastly, the saviours of zoroastrianism themselves put this practise back in place!!!!wonder why?

    Perhaps u can brandish these in any way u like ..

    on ure question 2)about the solar panel… thus the aviary project seems the ebst though chalenging.
    Having said that..there are people who strive to keep the dokhmenishini mode and thus zoroastria system alive, instead of taking excuses and maligning each n every effort

    on ure constituton of India…again ure comment shows that u lack the fundamentals of constituion of India which undetakes and understands each n every religion of India…that is why sikhs are th only ones permited with a beard in the amy n airforce, Haj pilgrims are subsidised,jaganath emples laws are maintained, muslim law board has its authority, the wakf board has its governance and the zoroastrian’s theirs..

    also the reason Jadi rana gave us refuge n 5 conditions throws light on history itself…after the original Persians i.e Zoroastrians were derfeated and massacred, the butchers claimed Persian grandeur…in pondicherry the cross of the persians exist..well the Persians, i.e zoroastrians fought the byzantines to save their faith, so how come such arose then….same happened in China…People who actually brought Persia to its knees now claimed to be Persians…and went to toher lands to promote their faith..the christian and Islam…As persianism an persians we were fused with the larger ones claiming to be persians ..those who converted…Jadi Rana with his this clause only confirmed out identity with those his forfathers had trade relations starting centuries ago..i.e sasanian mintage in Gujrat..the zoroastrian Persians who never converted..

    Also the constituion of India does not throw out legal bindings just because it was done pre independence..unless hampering with the sovergnity of India….

    you might again brandish the saviours of zoroastrians as anything you like but since u talk of dokhmenishini ill end with Sir P.M Mehta’s words…
    ‘”These are our sacred grounds, The abode of our dear departed, The bones of our forefathers rest here, The Peace of Heaven reigns here, He, who disturbs this Peace Shall do so at his peril.”

  • Anti Dhongidox

    RJ.I have asked for ‘Rules’ as mentioned in Zoroastrian  Scriptural Taxts i.e. Gathas, Avesta etc which made it mandatory to consign mortal remains on mountain tops and not Books authored by those in 20th Century.  Herodotus was not a prophet.Wonder if your long winded rigmarole convinces any boarder.Why have u evaded replying about Solar Panels. Is that not a ‘change’ a term you despise. A hundred years back did Fire Temples have Tube Lights & Electric Fans? Is that not a change?What are the Legal bindings you are talking about. Your reply is more confusing and incoherent, as usual.The issue under discussion is offering prayers for the departed and you talk about China and Herodotus and Greece. I do not wish to get more cofused by your ‘profound scholarship’.You are at liberty to bask in past glory ignoring the current problems. Good Luck to you and other boarders who think on your lines, THOUGH FROM ALL THE POSTS ON THIS BLOG, YOUR THINKING ALONE DIFFERS WITH THAT OF ALL OTHERS.

  • NND

    We are probably the only community that is literally digging its own grave. For their own personal pleasure and motives the liberals amongst us are hell bent on destroying, degrading and killing our customs, rituals and community. Looks like they are suceeding and poretty soon we wont have a community left to even fight over. Carry on your intermarriages and irreligious acts and keep shooting one more bullet into our community and its institutions. The liberals are solely to blame for the death of our community. I guess they will party only when we have destroyed our commuity and institutions for their pleasure and convenience.

  • phiroz

    Nairika,
    My compliments for an exellent post worded in the most appropriate language. Hope you will participate in future debates on this blog. We are in dire need of individuals who realise that we are in 21st Century and help those who resist being pushed back to century 4 B.C.

  • Nairika K. Cornett

    Thank you Anti Dhingidox, you have voiced my sentiments exactly. Not one point mentioned in Rustom Jamasjis last message convinced me of his scholarship or beliefs. Change is necessary for growth – either you learn to embrace it or stagnate. It is unfortunate that these so called scholars profess falsities with such assurances and even more unfortunate that we have an unthinking populace to believe the same. However, the tide is changing. Many are no longer going to be the victims of manipulative Messiahs and the like. We are thinking for ourselves, doing our own valid research and embracing necessary change.

    Mr. Jamasji’s denfense of the Indian Constitution is ridiculous. While the Indian Constitution is a great document it allows for no separation of religion and state, it allows for different civil laws under which citizens are able to reside,… all of which lead to communalism and divisiveness. Laws, criminal or civil must give the SAME rights and privileges to ALL citizens. Anyway, this is a discussion in and of itself.

    Mr. Jadi Rana probably had HIS identity more at stake than ours. He did not want us to intermarry or convert his people and hence put those conditions into effect.

    Mr. Jamasji seems to be one who brags on grandiuers old. Is he responsible for constantly sending around mass emails about the Parsis building Bombay, serving the British, excelling in commerce,… ??? While those are all FEEL GOOD articles they speak of laurels past. What are the Parsis doing now (I am sure I am going to get an article on Ratan Tata)? Why are our boys under educated? Why are our literacy numbers plunging? Why are the number of poor Parsis increasing while our funds are plump? Why is there the growth of the fanatical Parsi?? Mr. jamasji, let’s deal with these issues because THEY are what lead to communal decay. You obviously believe in spending a good bit of your time towards community issues. I urge you to pick the urgent ones – the ones truly affecting our once glorious community. Let us educate our young, investing in their future, let us feed the poor, investing in their health and well being. Leave judging people to Ahura Mazda – he loves all and accepts all that is good and honest.

  • Siloo Kapadia

    Thank Ahura Mazda that at least one priest in India has the good sense to help spread the religion.

    Yes, the religion has been hijacked by those that believe it is better to die out with old, worn out, tribalistic beliefs, bordering if not out-right rascist, than to help spread the word of our prophet Zoroaster, the way he intended it! But I also believe that we, the SANE members of the community, that want to see more acceptance of others, will prevail. As I have stated many times, the former are headed to extinction.

    Here in the US where I currently live, our community is thriving, not only becaues of immigration, but also because we welcome the non-Parsee spouses and their children.

    So let the agiaries fall into disrepair. When we eventually take them over (when the “others” die out), we will flourish, with new members, better fire temples, and a fast growing, prosperous community. For at last we as a community will have stopped living in lah lah land.

  • Nairika K. Cornett

    Dear NND,
    Two things tell me that your cause is weak and misguided:
    1. Name calling and finger pointing always speak volumes of a weak cause. I take it that you are conservative and use the word ‘liberal’ in a derogatory manner. Have you looked up the meaning of the word ‘liberal’? It means progressive. By definition, if you are not progressive you are either regressive or stagnant. Which one are you??
    2. Why not put your full identity on this site? Why the initials? Are you afraid or ashamed of your views?

    Honestly, I am curious to learn why the liberals are single handedly responsible for the decline of our community. In the U.S. (where many liberals reside) our religion and community are thriving. We function under an umbrella organization but give voice and free expression to all. Muting change and adaptation is impossible. Why not pave the way for progress and longevity? I assure you our community in North America is neither dying nor dwindling.

  • phiroz

    Dear Siloo,/Nairika &NND.
    There are those in our community, particularly in Mumbai, who provide free fodder to secular press to ridicule our community.One R Jamasji talks of 5 promises made to King Jadi Rana at the time of getting refuge as being LEGAL BINDINGS.
    If one remembers correctly, one of the promise was that no marriage ceremoney will be held before
    Sunset. Well so many Parsee marriages have taken place in mornings and if the ancestral promise to Jadi Rana were to be ‘legally binding’ as claimed, then all such marriages held in the mornings would be VOID ab initio.The Parsi Marriage Act has not incorporated a clause that marriages should be held only after Sunset.So much for the deep Scholarship of R.J.
    Second ‘promise’ to the then King was that our women folk will wear same type of dress as locals. R.J. and his supporters,if any, do not seem to have seen Parsee women in Denim Jeans,Pants & T Shirts.If these ‘pillars’ of our Religion had powers they would immediately excommunicate Jean & T Shirt wearing Parsee females.
    Pray to Ahura Mazda that such ‘pillars’& self styled Scholars put an end to their balderdash to spare the community from being a butt of jokes from sister communities.

  • rustom jamasji

    Dhongidox
    I did highlight the academicians studying zoroastrianism and thus studying dokhmenishini. Do u think , they removed the concept from their hat and reffered it to zoroastrianism..or do u think that archelogical findings and academic studies should be avoided.
    Yet since you want to be spoon fed
    The Persian rivayats, the dADESTAN I DENIG,THE Vendidad and others do talk of dokhmenishini..i guess ull want the page numbers but ul have to work on them ureself
    No Heropdetus was not a prophet, but his achievements make him remembered, i wont go in to educate you for the same and his experiences with Persianism
    Nor were the saviours of zoroastrianism prophets, yet they were the saviours of zoroastrianism, in contrast to yours neglecting studying yet passing judgement.

    Of course you in ure wisdom can compare wearing a shirt and tie and reebok shoes and a airconditionoer and fans with changing laws laid down or saving zoroastrianism or protecting it instead of arbitarily changing it…
    Not surprisingly THOUGH, in contrast to ure comparisons, the zoroastrians have maintaiend their values and religion without lacking the brains that wearing a shirt, eating with a knife n fork, eating chinese food, or sitting under fans wont change the fundamentals or core of the religion.
    you may feel i am circumventing the subject when i give examples of china or heredotus , infact lands of ex soviet union, and iraq which was mesepotamia, yet with the relation to arcehological proofs, they play an important role whilst discyusiing zoroastrian systems particulary old dakhma.Maybe ure lack of understanding or ure arrofance thus makes u want and being spoon fed and when proofs are provided, try and discredit it..

    As far as yor little line in capitals…i do try and read and study thus do not find it confusing when archeological findings of the ruins related to zoroastrian faith, the deeds carried out by the saviours of zoroastrianism, the reason for prof and scientists studying zoroastrianism and thus finding answers ..dont seem confusing..

  • Anti Dhongidox

    N.N.D.
    You seem to be concerned about the Parsee institutions being affected by liberals.Perhaps you are not unaware that Parsee estabished Schools have no Parsee Students. Is it not due to declining population?
    In this blog we are discussing offering prayers for those Parsee Zoroastrian souls (born out of both Parsee parents and married to Parsee spouse) opting for an alternate system of disposal because of a failed system. What is wrong in offering prayers for a departed? How can a non functional ‘system’ be further destroyed by Prayers?

  • rustom jamasji

    Ms Cornett
    My answer to dhongidox was not meant to impress you nor convinnce anyone..of my scholarship…Infact this was just basic G.K..as i said if archeological proofs seem unsubstantiated, research by n reason for studying itseem to have no linkage,then ofcourse one may even find holes in written texts. The reason i gave the modrn profs’s example is so that since you guys only give importace to modern activities, i thought atleast this would highlight the case…but i guess a no for an agenda is a no…

    Perhaps for some change is arbitaraly good and necessary and so one can change einsteins or archuimedes principle with time or if they cannot understand it or of they do not want to study it..

    Also changing zoroastrian principles would enable it to become a workshop of the changes and not zoroastrianism..One cud want to put pitures of snakes in as examples given..to be seudo secular or change with time though this entity is easily anti zoroastrian…

    Jadi Rana definately didnt want us to convert and thats exactly what Ive pointed out too,as he definately was scared of the tide or new uprising of conversion sweeping the world with wars. I can cite the example of Muhu’s in china, but ull find that exhausting and maybe not relevant to zoroastrianism, though being evry much it.

    Ure point also throws light on the fact that a small demography has every chance of fusing within the larger…and perrhaps ure knowledge of consitution would allow you to know the reasons of seclusion of other people from the indegenious people of places like Himachal, Andamans,JBK, Japan etc…

    On issues of being under educared, i think thats a myth…there are umpteen cases where in the gils parents after taking all and sundry for free and residing in baugs paying peanuts have brought their daughters up in a fsahion where in any one in their 20’s who cannot out do her parent in their 40’s are termed uneducated.Armed forces services, Police services, railways,etc are shuned..but again this trend is seen to be chjanging..in most thankfully.
    the influence’ part where in for every job in India has more than a 1000 times the applications and from therin a huge chunk going towards the reserved..makes it near impossible..unless u wantevery boy to be a tata, or a top notch doctor or c.a…
    yes there are some black sheeps, yet the phenomena of not envisaging the youths potential at 25 by the generation above it is more demeaning an lowly..it is not the new generation, but the fault lies with the generation and people who think it modern to change zoroastrianism…no wonder zoro youth are filing the rel void with anti zoro beliefs…yet another faultline..on the same line of thinking..

    as far as ure personal accusations which ure cotorie have galore including the dhongidox, it shud have been clear to you by now (and its simple and amply clear) that i do not send emails or write on blogs with pseudo names…and thus have no reason to send unsolicitated emails..but i guess to defame anyone just because u cant be proven right..allows you to travel on a road which makes u guys accuse without reason nor see the fact that i have always mentioned my name even on blogs..
    yes i am proud of my lineage, my ancestors, their sacrifices and wont forget the holocausts they have been thru..cause then i shall be as ignorant as those claiming ther were no tools in Persia to dig…

    as far as urgent issues,ill give u an example of the ones who thought by dedcating time towards the dakhma issue, we are wasting time over the dead…whilst they cudnt fathom the bigger picture, that it was for the living..living n thus practrising and thus passing on of zoroastrian systems…that maks us be zoroastrians, and without zoroasrian systems one wud cease to be able to practise zoroastrianiosm n thus be a zoroastrian..

    In any case there are many children–navjoted, and one can claim they are zoroastrians wothout the basic knowledge of zoroastrianism…..and thus a big hulubaloo over anything that goes against the belefs of those who want to change Trust deeds , Donors wishes, against those who set up zoroastrian systems,those who want to strenghten it….in the name of change…!!

    AS FOR CONVERSIONS..I WONDER WHY many want to convert others to something they want to change..or is it a case of having the cake and eating it too..
    atleast if u guys wanna convert do it on the lines of what the saviours of zoroastriansm have left behind…
    The gatha alone cult is a classic example of and is in tune with those who wanted to burn the avesta, stop the rituals, do away with the prayers and thus meaning…all in the name of zoroastriansm and ‘change’!

    in the mean time, please think og another personal accustation you people levy so adamantly against those you dont see eye with

  • rustom jamasji

    at phiroz..
    No i didnt say the promise given to the king has legal binding..please do not put or misinterprete,nor mutilate other peoples line..thats a lie…

    incase u didnt understand..it was quoted with the context of deeds /will being void just because they were preindependence..

    i any case the sad part is that u guys do not debate with a agenda to learn or for betterment of zoroastrianism, but to suit ure agenda..n thus such blatant mutilations..

    Another example of such..is like dhongidox claiming that ive avoided replying abt the solar panel when i have done so..

  • Anti Dhongidox

    The Pedantic wiseacre believes himself to one of the ‘Saviours’ of our great Religion but when called upon to quote the exact Scriptural reference which makes it mandatory for the followers of this Religion to consign the mortal remains on mountain tops, quotes Mary Boyce and Dr. Karkhanawalla,thus exposing the ‘depth of his knowledge’. He can not distinguish between scriptures and Works of Mary Boyce and Dr Karkhanawalla. The works of the 2 Scholars were written at a time when conditions were totally different.
    Yes, you RJ have also avoided touching the point of Solar Panels.
    Even in your repeated post you have miserablly failed to provide scriptural reference to system of disposal of mortal remains.
    Now while replying Phiroz you have recanted about the the promises to Jadi Rana as ‘legally binding’. Read your own earlier post before jumping to ‘enlighten’ others.Unlike you, there is no hidden agenda on my part nor am I a part of any coteries as assumed by you.
    By creating a false sense of insecurity in the community, individuals like you want to be in the limelight because you believe in Goebbles theory that a false/confused statement if repeated 100 times will be deemed as a fact by the gullible but remember that all those who do not agree with your views are not anti Zoroastrian or Anti Parsee nor yourself a geater Zoroastrian because of your so called beliefs.
    None of the boarders have even remotely suggested doing away with Avesta as falsely alleged.

    With regard to CONVERSIONS,it would have been better if you had touched on High Dasturs who performed Navjotes/ Uthamnas of some industrialists who were not Parsees but how can you. It requires courage of conviction.
    I fully endorse the quote of Sir P.M. Mehta as quoted by you in your post of 12th instant but leave for the others and Almighty to judge as to who is the cause of ‘disturbance’.If you want your post to be the last, so be it. I do not believe in the theory of dogs,that one who barks last is the victor.

  • Phiroz

    Mr. Jamasji,
    This refers to your post of 13th instant addressed to me.
    I do not have to’understand’ anything from your good self.Your self-contradictions and off tangent answers leave me confused as to whether I really want to go back to an era 14 centuries back. At the moment, I am thinking of 21st Century and how to cope with problems faced by this tiny community.How to answer members of sister communities about the avoidable prickly issues of ‘superiority’ raised by you and your ilk.
    I have never stated that my revered Avesta should be burnt as falsely mentioned by you, nor am I in favour of mindless conversions to ‘increase’ our tribe.
    I did try to contribute to the debate about Priests offering prayers for departed soul, regardless of the mode of disposal and that was the only AGENDA.I see nothing wrong in that. I consider this to be a noble action.
    Your holier than thou attitude is not appreciated.No body has conferred on you the monopoly of finding out ways for ‘betterment’ of our Religion or to interpret our holy texts.

  • Phiroz

    Sorry Jamasji,
    It is not my habit to “misinterprete, mutilate other peoples lines. Nor di I lie as contended by you. Below is a cut/paste job done by me from youe earlier ‘contribution’ dtd the 12 August which speaks for itself as to who is lying and who is retracing what was said by hime earlier. I have, as stated reproduced your own text, (spelling errors included,) ad -verbatim.

    QUOTE:Also the constituion of India does not throw out legal bindings just because it was done pre independence..unless hampering with the sovergnity of India….(Unquote)
    Please have elementary decency, becoming of a true Zoroastrian to withdraw your false allegation against me that I have ‘misinterpreted ,mutilated other peoples lines as falsely alleged by you. READ WHAT YOU WROTE YOURSELF EARLIER.

  • piloo

    Dear Nairika, Anti Dhongidox,Phiroz, Siloo,Religious but Rational, and other like minded.
    Wouldn’t it be better, if you exchanged your ideas on this Blog amongst yourselves ignoring one solitary individual, who posing as a Scholar,instead of offering point wise answers, endlessly criticizes others, imputes motives, casts baseless allegations. As stated by me earlier, my past experience on this blog suggests that this one individual on this present board wants to portray himself as an authority on all religions, history,geography, life science and any subjects you name it. His main aim is not to contribute to exchange of ideas but to eagerly read his own name appearing on the Board. He can not reply rationally.Thats a fact To him rationality tantamounts to being reformist. The word “change’ makes him jump to his Laptop/ Desktop.
    The best remedy for to tackle such’highbrows’ is to ignore them and not take cognizance of the crap they have posted. That is the way to silence such individual(s). I agree,the guy simply hallucinates.
    The situation of Bombay Parsees is akin to that of Galileo, who was tried by the Church for speaking the truth. Truth is bitter for some, like this solitary voice who lives in the past glory. I once again urge you all to ignore his trash and carry on. That will silence him. Ever wondered why his words of ‘wisdom’ are never read in print media?

  • Anti Dhongidox

    I take liberty to reproduce herebelow an article available on Zoroastrian Website, for the benefit of others.
    “Zarathushtra does not mention the form of burial or disposal. That is no surprise as his message is ethical and doctrinal and does not get involved on details, but gives principles to live by. How one’s remains are disposed has bearing only in the ecological sphere. If one is buried, today there is little chance that the Earth or the waters will be polluted, that was not so millennia ago, but even back then, burial, abandonement, or cremation were not all universally practiced, or condemned.

    The Persians, at least up to the early Achaemenids, had a practice of encasing the remains in wax and burying them in places away from water sources. Indian Vedics practiced cremation and the Sakas did as well. The Maggi tribes, and probably some others, practiced exposure. The point is that all these means and many more are good, provided that there is no damage to the environment and there are no health issues.

    What happened to burial practices in Persiam is a study on what happens when religion abandons Doctrine for practice imposed by authorities in god’s name. Indeed they become the religion of the wrongful. Under the Clergy, dominated by ethnic Maggii, ( The Maggii were a tribe of the Medan Confederation), the religious authorities worked dogmatically and feverishly over centuries, until they made exposure in Towers of Silence (Dokhmas), the standard and indeed the approved procedure (Interestingly they were never successful in convincing the Emperors and presumably the nobility; because Persian Emperors were always buried, in ways were there was no actual contact with the Earth or the water). Those sects that proposed alternative burial methods, were persecuted and stigmatized as heretical. This was done in the name of Zarathushtra, Ahura Mazda and the Religion of Tolerance!!!!

  • Religious but Rational

    Think that what Piloo says makes more sense. The lone cranky boarder who sees in himself as the one appointed to ‘save our religion’seems to suffer from selective amnesia as established hereinabove by Phiroz. When he can not give logical answers, he resorts to retracting what he wrote on the same board a day ago.And to justify this moral bankruptcy, he has the ‘ethics’ of making allegations a fellow boarder.
    Just ignore this self styled ‘Dharmagyani’.Perhaps he is a geriatric/senile and it is not worth enetering into a endeless and meaningless debate with him.

  • rustom jamasji

    Dhongido
    i guess u cud not not!!..(i dont kow how its visible ) read the lines that contained the lines, Dadistann i denig, the persian riyats, n vendidat!!!
    also archeological surveys and studies by various univ on the same with respect to z’ism is shunned by you..
    as i said ud probably want the the age number too…

    Yes i can difefrentiate between the texts ( as clearly quoted by me) and studies of the same and also find the coexistence of the studies..someghw fee; free to think that scholarly studies n archeological surveys of the same are done without reference to the zoroastrian practise and texts..also if u wudnt condemn such studies, they themself qote from the etxts, but i guess blindness is blindness!!!

    on ure cut n ciopy of the article,please quote the source..as this is taken from the chapter which explains the misconception of some people who use the term’ throw away the body’ due to avestan linguistic..infact if from the same notes that i think u misquote it clarly mentions that cremation was a definate ‘ nono’ buriyal was temporary in case of certain problems and SOME findings of was coatation renders to confusion and it is not mentioned in the texts cause it never was really practised..!!!
    dhongidox itll take u a long time to fool me by misqutations..!

    @ Phiroz..
    ure cut copy n passte of my quote again clearlydefines what i say..and ONCE AGAIN it is that trust deeds, wills do not render useless just because they have been preindependence..And this was in the context of
    Dhondidox quotes ‘as i paste here

    Thereafter, the Government of India Acts of 1919 & 1935 were enacted. Later, all Indians are governed by the Constitution of the Republic.Why then talk of promises to Jadi Rana.What is the relevance.?”

    To this i quote that just because the coonstitution came into foce it dos not render useless
    trust deeds and wills and settlers wishes…

    The point being made is very clear that just because someone made a will or had a wish for his donations , it cannot be delinked to the substance just becaue the constituion of India came into being..

    As i said u guys from blaming the persian kings who actually had sagrophugu’s built so as to stay in tune with the principle of zoroastrianism, had war dakhmas,and texts being written and oral trads being passed on have come to sort of misquoting..and lastly stooping down to personal attacks…

    even then i thank you guys…for ure wrong notions and adamancy have made me clear doubts that existed in many a readers…

    Infact if i wanted to be cremated, burried, or convert,or change, i wouldnt stoop down to levels of mutilating history, my ancestors, their wishes, demeaning history that was saved thru real sacrifices.. by taking advantages of examples that historians say are contraray to persian zoroastrian belief and have baffled most due to the destruction by alexander, rome and islam..
    but i guess to ask for a change wihout taking recluse in changign history needs a gall!

  • phiroz

    Rustomji,
    I am not interested in discussing issue with a person who does not have the common courtesy of admitting his own error and instead chooses to twist and distort issues to further justify the same.
    You have earlier given a quote of Sir P Mehta.To a person like you, reciting prayers for a departed Soul is DISTURBANCE because another alternate method of disposal was taken recourse to, speaks volumes about your ‘thinking’. The Issue on this Board was of Parsi Priests defying BPP’s fatwa and you have digressed it to indulge in your ‘apartheid’ propaganda.
    I have decided to heed the suggestion of other rational boarders to heretofore just ignore your comments and not to reply to you.You can NOT compel others to agree with your views and that prcisely is your desire. Fortunately for the Community you are NO AUTHORITY to condemn, criticize others and pass judgments. If you feel that you have ‘clarified’ doubts in the minds of others,as claimed by you, you are sorely mistaken for you would have surely observed that almost all who have expressed their feelings on the issue of BPP’s fatwa,DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU.If yet you feel that you alone are “RIGHT” that so be it.Now I realise that it is owing to likes of you that our Community is in the News for all the wrong reasons.

  • phiroz

    By the way,to enlighten you, I had talked about relevancy or otherwise of promises made to Jadi Rana and you have stated that they were legal bindings Read your own post of 12th inst. I quote once again”Also the constituion of India does not throw out legal bindings just because it was done pre independence..unless hampering with the sovergnity of India….”This sentence was in relation to promises made to Jadi Rana and not in context of Trust Deeds and Wills. Please do not distort as is your habit.Nothing further to add.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    I have already clarified in my post dated the 13th instant that I do not carry a misbelief to the theory that one who Writes last is the Victor or that such a last post/ blog/ message is an act of vindication or triumph of its author.I am not a megalomaniac.But one thing is for sure. The present BPP Trustees believe in dynastic rule and by the middle of this Century the progeny and relatives of the Akaabars would have constructed some ‘Grander Parody’ on Doongerwadi lands and there will be no room for Parsee Zoroastrians to offer quiet prayers in solitude for Parsi Zoroastrian departed souls. The next generation will fondly ‘remember likes of R.J. to their ‘invaluable’ contribution.

  • Voice of Reason.

    One boarder is squirming and feels offended to the reactionaries in our Community being called as Talibans. To the best of my knowledge, a Taliban is one who has no remorse for his heinous inhuman acts and believes that his actions are willed by his Maker and that there will be Angels waiting for him at the Gates of Heaven. In what way “divine” interpreters of our religion different? Talibans have greatest animosity with a word called ‘reason’. They believe that their interpretation of Holy Texts alone is authentic. Ditto for our Zoroastrian ‘interpreters’, for whom reasoning is a taboo and unquestioned adherence to dogmas as synonymous with being dedicated to Religion and being pious.

  • rustom jamasji

    Dhongidox, its funny you say about being remembered by the next generations..yes it woud be a pleasure if i can strenghten zoroastrian system so as it being passed on to other generation zoroastrianism. Yes i do see us surviving as Zoroastrians only if zoroastrianism survives..and zoroastrianism wud survive only if its practises and principles stay alive and are not changed..
    For example zoroastrian principles talk strictly against cremation..this comes from the principles of even consecrating an agiary…i.e its fundamentals… cremation wud perhaps render useless the making of an agiary…

    iNFACT I had written to the earlier bpp trustees that they wud be remembered as the last traitors of the zoroastrian empire if they end zoroastrian systems instead of working towards bettering them..

    Yes being devoid of history makes one think that the zoroastrians never burried cause they did not have tools.!!!! or so many armchair rationalism by rn r in some otjer posts that have being proven wrong by histrical facts..and also by highlighting misconceptions on the muktaad days and sasanian history…

    As far as dynastic or talibanistic rule, even the naag devi group wud say that as they cannot adhere to and have not studied the principles of zoroastrianism where snakes are a miscreation and anti mazda’s creation…u can gather support for your cry to change zoroastrianism since they too would now want z’ism to change and adapt snakes as a part of z worship!!!! though being totally banal..

    If the PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW the rules and wishes of the makers of such are dynastic n talibanisitc then what abt the makers of such be…wud u call Jerbai wadia a racist, etc cause she built colonies only for zoroastrians? or wud u call rustm framna , dadysett etc talibanistic as they built agiaries and rules for seclusion of non zoros inside it

    Yes historical bankruptcy makes one think that since tools didnt exist we didnt bury, though burial, cremation etc have been mentioned and archeological wonders in ruins exist today in persia..and some feel things dogmatic cause they havent studied the why’s of such but jump to conclusions and judgement on such.
    Historcal bankkruptcy coupled with an agenda…makes one ignore studies carried outby univs and pointed out by me as not being proofs.The texts like vendiidad, denkard, Dadistan i denig etc being ignored makes one ask questions as to where n what texts talk about the same..

    and lastly piroz’s comment on me shows that he Thinks I have written down the texts mentioned by me…where as i have only quoted them…If he has a problem with the texts or things written therein, his ire shud be towards zoroastrianism…not someone who studies it and quotes it…

    Now ure cotorie should ask spca to sue me as ive quoted zoroastrianism being anti snake…and also demand a change in zoroastriansim to include snake worship though being contraray to zarathushtra;s teachings n snake being anti mazda’s creation…
    let everyone then think like cremation, snakes also are worshipped in zoroastrianism…lets completely destruct and direct zoroastrianism away from what zarathushtra preached…all for a change…

    rnr i guess u cannot take archeological findings, persepoliis’s ruins n the fact of persian architecture, history of building the suez canal, the baam fortress as others, dakhman’s, indeed even graves, and texts writing on such…n the saviours of zoroastrianism insisting on dakhenishini system though cud build graves in India as them having tools to dig graves..or giving importance to dakhmeniushini….

    piroz take shelter in ure misqutations of my writing on the constituion of India..

    As i said if i wanted to be cremated, worship snakes, uncover my head in the agiary,etc etc etc..i atleast wud not defile zoroastrianism and history n sacrifices for saving such by claiming that such rukles and customs never existed in zoroastrianism or zarathshtra never talkd of such…but i guess people need to have a moral code for that..

  • farzana

    When there are people who want to be followers, there will come those who will claim to be leaders. When people think like sheep, there will be wolves that pose as shepherds. When we are willing to give a free ride, there will come those who will take us for a ride.

    Types like Khojeste Mistry who think they have a religious duty to tell others what to think and those jerks who actually let Khojeste Mistry dictate their thoughts and actions belong to CIRCUS not to free thinking human society.
    If Dastur Madon or Mirza don’t belong to this PARSEE CIRCUS CULTURE, they need not waste their sweat over silly fatwas emitting from delusional self-style Parsee Ayotollahs and Popes. I doubt if even Zarathustra would have supported their facist ideas which in my opinion is diametrically opposed to his idea of promoting monotheism to unite cultures …but than i leave it wise ones to judge.

    In Zarathustra’s own words-
    .
    “Wise One, I realize you to be powerful and progressive because You help with Your own hand. You give rewards to both the wrongful and the righteous, by means of the warmth of your Fire, which is mighty through Righteousness and through which the strength of Good Mind comes to me.” (Gathas: Song 8:4)

    What becomes evident from the verse, is that such a reward is given to both the righteous and the wrongful. What does this tell us?? That each one of us get rewarded as per our deeds. Deeds that we commit with our conscious reason. The rational morality introduced by Zarathushtra is very similar to Kant’s Moral Philosophy. In both cases autonomy requires one to obey no authority other than the authority of his or her REASON.

    I’ve not understood under what authority do these religious farceurs from WAPIZ and likes, think they can dictate fatwas to co-religionist when its clearly stated in Zarathustra’s own words that no one has right of control over anyone except oneself. As per Gathas, Zarathushtrians are only encouraged to find out what is enjoyable for themselves and others and then try to act it in a way that is not harmful to the environment. In other words they are not asked to dominate anything or anyone. They are asked to enjoy the life while they respect their own needs, other people’s needs, and the needs of the environment.

    In Zarathushtrian tradition, human beings are considered FREE and INTELLIGENT. How many of parsees actually furnish this criteria, can be a matter of serious debate. Judging from level of using the faculty of thinking, reasoning, and acquiring and applying knowledge, i dont think many parsis here will pass the first level. As for ‘FREE’, people who think from the waist which is tied up in knots …well errr!!! remains me of Nazi youth with swastika bands!!

    In 8th century it was the repressive regime of Sassanians that damaged Zoroastrianism beyond repair and in 21st century its the role played by the racist neo-Sassanians who will be drill in the final nail in the parsee coffin.. In George Santayana’s words : Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

  • farzana

    Quoting Anti Dhongidox ==> “(ii) Which Religious scripture suggested even remotely, Solar Panels to be installed. Does their installation not amounts to ‘ignoring Zoroastran texts”?”

    SUPERB! KUDOS… :)YOU NAILED IT!!:)

    Quoting Jamasji==> “Ill give you the names…amongst others. Herodetus was one of the first to comment on this rituals”

    True Jamasji, YOU ARE 100% right, historians refer to records of Herodotus, a greek slave living in territories in Persian empire, when they are referring to Zoroastrian rituals by Magis.
    NOW I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW FROM SO CALLED TRADITIONALIST MULLAHS , WHAT WAS THIS NONZOROASTRIAN GREEK MAN DOING IN FIRE TEMPLE 3,000 YEARS AGO?

    IF IT WAS OK 3,000 years ago for NonZoroastrians to visit fire temples, and places for disposal of dead, why is it not ok now?

    I have my doubts, are these Parsee mullahs really following traditions or are they closet Nazis hijacking Zoroastrianism to fuel their own twisted racist agenda.

  • True Orthodox Zoroastrian

    Dear Voice of Reason, Phiroz & Farzana,
    First let me compliment Farzana for a really thought provoking rebuff to one who claimed in his post of the 14th that “he cleared doubts in the minds of many a readers”.(Or created doubts!)
    Boarders here discuss recitation of prayers for those departed souls and this chamelon harps on charms and amulets worn by some misguded element.
    Why the concept reasoning is an anathema for Parsi Talibans can best be understood by their inherent inability/handicap to answer logical questions and come to terms with realities of the situation as it prevails. They cannot come to terms with the current situation and assume that the conditions as they existed centuries back, can be made to return. They resort to name calling, hurling invectives and branding others as irreligious, when confronted with inconvenient issues for which they have no logical answers. Taliban call all those who do not toe their line of ‘thinking’ as kafirs/ infidel and so do Parsi Taliban. Then why feel offended when labelled Taliban?
    The source of “knowledge’ of Parsi Taliban is archaeology since the same can be conveniently twisted to justify their biased bigoted views. They hope that they can thus continue their authoritarian hold on the major section of population. These specimens have the cussedness as well as shamelessness to willfully turn a Nelson’s eye to exceptions made for the super rich and the powerful by materialistic minded clergy. They pretend as though they are absolutely unaware of such ‘exceptions’ made by priests whose mundane desires overcome their principles. For such despotic minded, the word renegade has different connotations for different priests. By their outbursts, such charlatan elements end up displaying their intellectual insolvency and inferiority complex.
    Even the hard core but genuinely Religious Orthodox are NOW fed up with this obnoxious approach and shameless duplicity of a coterie.
    Now Phiroz, I strongly feel that our Community has not applied its mind to doctrine of Cypres in respect of Charity Trusts whose principal object for which they were originally set up, has become irrelevant. One classic example of ‘waste’ of ancestral Trust property is the Parsi Lying in Hospital. The need of the hour is starting a group on Orkut or Facebook on which those undesirable and holding intolerant views towards reforms in customs and practices can be excluded from diverting from the main topic.
    That is not to say that we should cease to be genuinely Orthodox insofar as our Religion is concerned.

  • phiroz

    To All Boarders/ Readers,
    I have read and read again and again, all the mesages on this post and could NOT find a single post suggesting/ advocating/ encouraging:
    – wearing symbols of other Religions and entering Zoroastranplaces of Worship;

    -Suggesting entry into fire temples without covering the head;

    -Tearing or burning of sacred Avesta Books.

    If any reader can point out the name of such a heathen/pagan having expressed such blasphemy on this blog or in any other publication, I would like to have his name and the date of his post, if any, since I can not find any post to such an effect.Nor, to the best of my knowledge have I found such irreligious expressions in any other Parsee publication.

    Ad -nauseam, one blogger is mentioning these imaginary issues repeatedly, out of context.
    It is not a case of ranting of a senile/ distubed mind. It is a case of intentional propagation of self made dogmas as opposed to spreading teachings of our Religion.It is a case of mania to impose dogmatic views on others in the false pretext and name of Religion.To him his obsessed dogmas and customs are synonymous with Religion.His beliefs are not Religion and it is time he realises it.
    Since WAPIZ in FPJ Ads is presently engaged in proxy publication of activities of BPP (rendering BPP Bulletin superficial) let this blog not be misused by those wiyh ulterior objectives for diverting and digressing from the main topic.
    Despite overwhelming and logical rebuttal of his ‘thoughts’! by innumerable bloggers,this person can not read the writing on the wall -i.e. expression of disapproval of his dogmatic beliefs and rejection of his totalitarian,warped thinking. The question that arises is, should such a person be allowed to post messages endlessly repeating the same warped and dogmatic views.
    One more question that arises is,are we to squander time and energy on hypothetical and imaginary ‘dangers’ to our Religion?.

  • rustom jamasji

    Dear Farzana…
    On your question which appaears in bold of heredotus entering a fire temple..

    There are a million non zoroastrians in the world who know of the zoroastrian system of exposure of the dead…doesnt mean that they have visited a fire temple..

    Prof Hunells, Prof Mary Boyce. Prof Rusell all have studied zoroastrianism and know of the ceremonies including the boi, dosnt mean that they go in the fire temples to give boi..or do other ceremonis..they have also ta;ked and have studied the practise of dokhmenishini yet this doesnt show that they have broken the law regarding the seters wishes of agary laws in India–pak .

    As far as your comment on the question of solar panels at the dongerwaadi, it amazes me how your cotorie jump to any loop holes you find to suit ure agenda…
    Infact I have and state that there is no injuncture for solar panels in any texts…yet I have also stated that an aviary plan is the best and long lasting THOUGH Chalenging…yet the people who worked on the idea, the conception, the placement etc shows their eagerness and WILL TO WORK FOR instead AGAINST a system..

    Yes the most dimunative portion of your cotorie is that not only do u guys claim everyone is a taliban, yet shout hoarse to close down sytems that you are not forced to folllow, WANT to nullify the setlers wishes, WANT to change something not studied…Want to change to suit family members…Belittle History and all efforts put in to xontinue zoroastrian systems so that zoroasrianism can be passed on..

    Afterall the ones that follow the naag devi also opine that the ones who ask them not to bring pictures of things banal to z’ism …

    Farzana i guess u shud start by knowing what a taliban is..when was the last time anyone was forced to go into a fire temple, or practise dokhmenishini!!!

    Whenever you guys are not allowed to CHANGE EITHER Settkers wishes, Fire temple laws, Zoroastrian principles etc to suit Ure tastes or ways, then U guys feel that u have a right to blame others of talibanisitc attitude…and DEMAND A SHUT DOWN..

    After all,some here have blamed me of not giving names of books that talk of exposure o the dead in ZOROASTRIANISM like the vendidad, the Degdistan I denig,the persian riyaats…as not showing proof of texts…
    After pointing out to archeological evidence,claiming them unsubstantiated..
    After pointing out to various moderrn univs and historians studying and talking of the zoroastrian practise , claim its not enough proof..

    But i submit here, that those with the logic that Persians didnt have tools to dig, or since people talk of zoroastrian practise, they should assume that they have broken laws of the same…those who strive for loopholes when zoro practises are tried to be strenghten….then for those people, no proof is enough…as they have an agenda whose end result is similar to the ones that wanted to end zoroastrian systems a millenia ago…

    As i said u guys dont even have the courtesy not to malign hisory, ure own ancestors,..

    I Still wish you guys all the best wit your new temple and priests…and sugest FOR the sake of zoroastrianism, let the oens who want to put back in place and strenghten zoroastrian system carry on without ure help or hinderance, cause if not, U guys wud have achieved what hoardes of Macedonians and Moslems couldnt achieve in more than a millenia..from within..” Yes that too is a quote of a famous historians referiing to the gatha alone cult and supposedly reforms..

  • Anti Dhongidox

    Ms. Farzana,
    You would have surely not failed to observe that Herodotus lived centuries back and he could not have even visualized Solar Panels. This demonstrates calibre of “Mr. Perpetually Out of Context” and how ‘effective’ and ‘befitting ‘ is his reply to the query posed to him by me with regard to Solar Panels . And he has the audacity to claim that his out of context replies are:
    1.backed by historical texts;
    AND
    2.that he has succeeded in clearing doubts in the minds of many a readers.

    Perhaps even those in Framji Cawasji Hall will dump such ‘scholarly write –ups’ in WPB.

  • farzana

    True, True Orthodox Zoroastrian, isn’t it ironical that enlightened dasturjis like Madon and Mirza are labeled as ‘heretics’ while they are actually following the original tenets of Zarathustra; and it is the traditionalist mullahs who are perverting Zarathustra’s teachings for their own selfish motives.
    I hope that someday more and more Parsis will see through the sham of these moralists; and learn to think for themselves.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    Farzana,
    Accoring to “Mr. Perpetually out of Context” the Source of works of Profs Ms. Mary Boyce,Hinnels and Russel is SECONDARY, i.e. what was told to them. Thus we are now told that their works are based on HEARSAY and NOT based on own Research.(since they could not visit the sites like Fire Tamples and places of disposal of Dead).
    I am not saying this but it is what ‘Mr Perpetually Out of Context’ saying.
    As for the issue of Parsee, Taliban, ‘True Orthodox Zoroastrian’ has dealt it exhaustively.This establishes that not all Orthodox are dogmatic. Further,his remark “For such despotic minded, the word renegade has different connotations for different priest” is is undeniable as well as incontrovertible.
    HYPORICY UNLIMITED.

  • Nairika K. Cornett

    Dear All,
    At the outset let me mention that I am thrilled to see such passionate dialogue on both sides. By now you must know that I am a ‘liberal’ but I am interested in understanding (not to be confused with excusing) conservatives and their views.

    Having read the above arguments several times it has become clear to me that there is some serious confusion on the part of Mr. Jamasji. Let me explain. While putting forth many points you use the word ‘Zarathushti’ but give examples based in political and not religious history. I quote you Mr. Jamasji: WANT to nullify the setlers wishes, WANT to change something not studied…Want to change to suit family members…Belittle History and all efforts put in to xontinue zoroastrian systems so that zoroasrianism can be passed on.. End Quote. Why are the settler’s wishes relevant today, when we live in a Democratic Republic? What part of the Avesta refers to these wishes? Are you and Khojeste allowed to punish those who choose to follow the religion (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds) but not the ‘settlers wishes’??? What is a ‘Zoroastrian System’ and why does it differ so vastly from Zoroastrian texts?

    Mr. Jamasji you say, “Farzana i guess u shud start by knowing what a taliban is..when was the last time anyone was forced to go into a fire temple, or practise dokhmenishini!!!” While you are partially right in sayin no one forces anyone into a fire temple or practice Dokhmenishini, banning and ex-communicating one that does not practise the way YOU feel best (like Ervad Madon) is also a form of ‘Talibanization’. You and your like have adopted the ‘My Way or Highway’ approach. If that is not intimidation and repression what is it? Asking a man who erroneously entered a Fire Temple at the age of eight to publicly apologize, some thirty years later, and then identify the temple is simply ludicrous. Are you telling me that since Arjun Rampal entered this Fire Temple and desecrated the Atash that ALL weddings, Navars, Navjotes, Martabs, Muktads,… performed at this location are null and void? Do you not think banning a Dastur praying, upon the wishes of community members is abuse of self appointed power?

    Also, make no mistake that it is not us ‘liberals’ who are interfering with your lives and your Zoroastrian Systems (the more I write this phrase the more ridiculous it sounds). I am not asking YOU to divorce your spouse and marry one I am advocating; I am not asking you to perform or not perform the Navjote of your children. Frankly, I am asking nothing of or from you. WAPIZ and the likes of you feel the need to publicly outcry our irreligiousness, our moral degradation, our fall from piousness, our relationship with the devil, our aim to destroy,… Mr. Jamasji, get over yourself – I am saying this with the most respect possible. You and Khojeste can keep barking, but a time will come when your two minutes will be up. No one is asking of anything ridiculous or irreligious. Yes, old customs may be challenged – in fact they must be challenged. This is human evolution. Neither you nor Khojeste can stop this try as you may. Fake scholarship and false British accents don’t impress anymore.

    I remember learning of a man who came to Bombay, from Chicago, to speak to our community and certain people’s ruffian-style responses. I remember thinking how easy it was, how little effort it took to destroy something/someone, how undermining an individual was like child’s play, when your only goal is to create havoc.

    It’s very easy to tear things down, to kill an opportunity for honest change, to destroy a fragile alliance, to shut out the truth by telling dramatic lies for the cameras, and repeating them day in, day out. Even if people don’t believe your lies, they’ll be confused enough to not act on the truth. It’s very easy to blast your way into the headlines and become the de facto winner of any argument, just by sheer firepower.

    WAPIZ has learned this lesson well. It has discovered that there is no need to put forth good arguments for its points, or to meaningfully debate its ideas at meetings set up just for that purpose. Why should it do that, when it can go on a rampage, yell and scream, intimidate and threaten, even bring goondas to the meetings? Such activity guarantees the presence of TV cameras. News organizations will report these activities as “passion” for a cause, and not as the lunacy that it really represents. WAPIZ and often the Panchayat in charge of these meetings have learned a valuable truth. It’s very easy to destroy someone else’s effort, to denigrate the fragile progress of those sitting at the table trying to work out a common goal. Like Conservatives everywhere have learned, all you have to do is shout and swear, wave Religious texts in a show of piousness, threaten and rant, and they can get their way. Not by converting anyone to their cause, but by simply making religion so unpleasant that most people just go home and hide. THIS HAS GOT TO COME TO AN END AND IT WILL!!!

  • True Orthodox Zoroastrian

    Compliments to Farzana and Anti Dhongidox,for one intelligent yorker.
    So Mr. R egularly J umbled is made to admit that source of books of white skinned Westerners was not empirical or first hand but information as provided by self interested clergy of that time.
    As the adage “Little Knowledge is a Dangerous thing” gets exposed in case of Mr. R egularly J umbled.
    EXCELLENT JOB Farzana and Anti Dhongidox. Keep it up.

  • rustom jamasji

    Farzana to justify ure point that Heredotus entered a fire temple since he claimed of the zoroastrians exposing their dead… u now resort to a word game mutilating what ive said..but thats done b4 by ure cotorie..U claim that I say that the Prof quoted by me have second hand information!!!though ive stated of them studying archeological evidence and studied history of ancient Persia and Zoroastrianism…
    wow u guys stoop to all levels..

    Maybe shedding ignorance would enable such to realise that many a zoroastrian text lie at copenhagen and other places explaining Zoroastrianism…and many a historians know about zoroastrian practises even without breaking laws regarding zoroastrian instituions in indo pak by studying the practises of the zoroastrians as put back by the saviours of zoroastrianism..

    Thats how the Likes of Sir Modi, Ichaporia and others come into the picture..

    Infact last year a Prof at Harward, commented IN Bombay on how the zoroastrians in India Pak had maintained the similarity in rituals to atleast the sasanids…n thus enables zoroastrian studies as the practises help learn about the hows and the theory helps us understands the why’s of such!!!

    And thus customs ,practises and rites and theological studies have helped to put in prespective and form a complete picture as to their research…

    Farzana’s logic claims that the Profs quoted either tie the kusti since they know about it and the way its done…or they only have second hand information since they do not do the kusti…or everything is second hand since we havent met zarathushtra…
    Guess Prof Rusell who is forfront in respect to Armenia and Armenian wars with Persia would be labelled as having second hand knowledge since he wasnt present in 300 ce with Farzana’s logic..

    Atleast u shud have recognised history..and even tilak studied the gathas, yet never broke the zoro laws of its instituion…Also
    my pointing out that just because a million know of zoroastrian practises, doesnt mean they have broken the laws representing such..

    It also places all sudies on egyptology, mayans, incas etc as HEAR SAY since they cudnt have lived thru the specific ages..

    Ofourse Farzana accoriding to you since heredotus , a claimed historian talks of dokhmenishinmi u assume he broke zoroastrian laws and since Hinells and Boyce and Rusell have worked on Zoroastrianism, yet not broken laws regarding zoroastrian places in indio pak…their work is based on secondary information..thats ure siddom..Maybe archeological evidence is also consodered HEAR SAY FOR YOU..

    Dhongi dox..look at you..
    U give judgement, then out of ignorance asks of the texts pointing out to what u contradict???!!!

    After being spoon fed and pointing out to texts dealing with exposure of deads, archeological evidence, modern univs studying them etc, u can still claim that uve not beeen shown proofs…
    Maybe u like being ignorant….

  • farzana

    Rustumjee,

    Even today Fire temples in Iran are open to everyone including Prof Hunells, Prof Mary Boyce. Prof Rusell, Arjun Rampal and anyone who wants to pay a visit. Only Dhanshak bawas like to live in cocoons and cook ridiculous excuses to grab their insecurities.

    Coming to Herodotus, he was not a column writer in a gossip magazine, he was a historian in 5th century BCE. FYI, he was the first historian in the world to collect his materials systematically, test their accuracy to a certain extent and arrange them in a well-constructed and vivid narrative. His second- and third-hand accounts were related to his primary subject- the Persian wars. What i was pointing out was his account on nature of the Zoroastrian temples in Achaemenian period which are based on FIRST HAND ACCOUNT. And fortunately we have archeological proofs to attest it. 🙂

    For your ref- http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Fire-temple
    From Herodotus it is known that in the mid-5th century BCE the ZOROASTRIANS WORSHIPPED TO OPEN SKY, ascending mounds to light their fires (The Histories, i.131). Strabo confirms this, noting that in the 6th century, the sanctuary at Zela in Cappadocia was an artificial mound, walled in, but open to the sky (Geographica XI.8.4.512).

    Herodotus gives a complete detail record of rituals and sacrifices that a Magians practiced in the z-temple… Please note- NO WHERE HE STATES THAT THESE TEMPLES WERE EXCLUSIVELY ERECTED ONLY FOR THE ADHERENTS OF ZOROASTRIAN FAITH , OR lets put it this way- IF THERE WAS ANY SUCH RULE THAT EXISTED IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED IN HIS NOTES. To extend this argument further, the Fire Temple at Baku, carries an inscription praising Jwala Mukhi deva in Sanskrit on one of its walls. Goes to show, the presence of worshippers other than Zoroastrians in fire temples was quite a common sight.

    Quoting Rustomjee==> “In fact I have and state that there is no injuncture for solar panels in any texts”

    I loved your logic. Why do traditionalists like you follow texts? is it to find things which are not mentioned or to do things which are mentioned? Technically applying the same yardstick you use to measure others, – since solar panels are not mentioned in the texts, therefore its use is unlawful as far as tradition is concern. Period.

    Besides Rustomjee, i don’t want to insult Talibans by equating them to types like you. Talibans are atleast consistent, convincing and honest about their interpretation of their texts, unlike Parsi ‘DHONGEE’ moralists who twist rules when it suits them. Their artificial moralities and religious righteous posturing is for the benefit of the gullible – who, unfortunately, outnumber the rational.

    When people think like sheep, there will be clever “shepherds” like Khojstee Mistry who are well adept at parlaying this into profitable ventures.

    This reminds me of Zarathustra’s words-

    “… do not chose the rule of tyrants and deceit rather than truth
    [asha].” (Y32.12).

    How true in the current context, ney?

  • farzana

    Quoting Anti Dhongidox==> “Accoring to “Mr. Perpetually out of Context” the Source of works of Profs Ms. Mary Boyce,Hinnels and Russel is SECONDARY, i.e. what was told to them. Thus we are now told that their works are based on HEARSAY and NOT based on own Research.(since they could not visit the sites like Fire Tamples and places of disposal of Dead).”

    Exactly, so since our Rustomjee himself confesses these writers based their thesis on hearsy and unnamed sources, credibility of their work is in doubt…Thank you Rustomjee, now that you have shot yourself in the foot… Your evidences are solemnly dismissed… go and find something more credible this time 🙂

  • Phiroz

    Can any Boarder enlighten me why Persian Emperors professing Zoroastrian faith have TOMBS bearing their names, if it was the custom/ practice among the Zoroastrians to place mortal remains on mountain tops?. Were the Customs different for the Rulers and those over whom they Ruled?

  • Phiroz

    R J’s quote in Line 9 of his post dated Aug 16 “Infact I have and state that there is no injuncture for solar panels in any texts…”
    My comment: Since there is NO INJUCTION even for ELECTRIC CREMATION since it does not cause Fire,so we can adopt Electric Cremation going by this logic.

  • farzana

    Rustomjee==>though ive stated of them studying archeological evidence and studied history of ancient Persia and Zoroastrianism…

    Ooooohhhhh!! you meant archeological and historian evidences?? gannoo sarroo , ive some for you…

    ———————————————————————————————————–

    ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCES OF BURIAL SITES BELONGING TO ACHAEMENID AND SASSANID TIMES

    Achaemenid grave of a woman with rich burial goods excavated at Susa in 1901

    http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/forgottenempire/luxury/index.html

    This is partly because all the tombs of the Achaemenid kings were plundered in antiquity. However some lesser burials, including the Susa tomb have proved invaluable both for the objects found within them and the customs which they reveal.
    ————————————————————————————–
    UNIQUE ANCIENT BURIAL STYLE IDENTIFIED NEAR PERSIAN GULF

    http://www.payvand.com/news/09/feb/1030.html

    TEHRAN, Feb. 3 (Mehr News Agency) — A team of Iranian archaeologists has recently identified a unique burial style at the ancient Geravi cemetery near the Persian Gulf in Hormozgan Province.

    Ten graves dating back to the Parthian and Sassanid periods have been dug out at the 100-hectare site during the first season of excavation, which was completed on January 20.

    Based on these discoveries, the bodies were not buried directly in earth, team director Abbas Noruzi told the Persian service of CHN on Monday.

    “The bodies were laid on a surface covered by tiny stones in a rocky area and then fenced in with stones up to 50 centimeters. Afterwards the opening of the structure was covered over by large, flat stones,” he explained.

    “The people also broke pottery over the grave and presented their gifts, mostly opal and shell beads, and then it was covered by cobblestones,” he added.

    Noruzi believes that breaking pottery work on the grave symbolized the end of life of the dead.

    Only one of 10 graves contained a skeleton, which had been laid in a squatting posture. The bodies of the other graves had completely decayed due to the limy and acidic properties of the soil in the region.

    one more for your ref-
    http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2005/October2005/10-10-remains.htm

    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————–
    HISTORICAL EVIDENCES OF FORCED CONVERSIONS TO ZOROASTRIANISM DURRING THE SASSANID TIMES

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/538720/Shapur-II/6598/Persecution-of-Christians
    With the subsequent Christianization of the empire, Sh?p?r, mistrustful of a potential force of a fifth column at home while he was engaged abroad, ordered the persecution and forcible conversion of the Christians; this policy was in force throughout his reign.

    http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch22c.htm

    King Shapur began persecuting the Christians, and Jews and Manichaeans, Shapur seeking their conversion to Zoroastrianism. Entire villages of Christians were slaughtered. Then Shapur restricted the attacks against Christians to priests, monks and nuns.

    http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/articles/history_of_christianity_iran1.php

    This period of peace and prosperity for the Christian community lasted until the reign of Bahram II (276-293AD). First persecutions included that of Bahram’s Christian concubine Candida, one of the first Persian Martyrs. The persecutions were supported and even promoted by the powerful high priest Kirdir who in one inscription declares how Ahriman and the idols suffered great blows and continues as follows: “and the Jews (Yahud), Buddists (Shaman), Hindus (Brahman), Nazarenes (Nasara), Christians (Kristiyan), Baptists (Makdag) and Manicheans (Zandik) were smashed in the empire, their idols destroyed, and the habitations of the idols annihilated and turned into abodes and seats of the gods”.

    The king ( Yezdegerd II ) took a particular interest in the question of religion and studied all religions practiced in Iran. But he remained a zealous Zoroastrian and at the end started persecuting both Christians and Jews. He tried to convert Armenians back into Zoroastrianism; he was defeated once, won again and took hostage the leaders of the Armenian Church and leading members of the local aristocratic families by carrying them off to Iran.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
    HISTORICAL EVIDENCES OF MIX MARRIAGES BETWEEN ZOROASTRIANS AND PARJATS.

    http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/women_in_ancient_persia.php

    Mixed marriages amongst Persian and non-Persians also existed . The royal children were often used in marriages to create alliances between different groups and even nations. Darius married off her daughters to military leaders throughout the empire. He himself married the daughters of nobles Gorbryas, Otanes, his own niece and daughters of the Cyrus II, Cambyses II and Bardiya. Darius’s marriages are very unusual. Matrilineal descent might have been important at this time and his reason for marrying all the royal women of the previous kings might have been an attempt to eliminate any contestants to the throne. In his inscriptions Darius claims descent from the house of Achaemenid, however the historical evidence does not support such a claim and marriages in this manner would have safeguarded his claim to the throne if indeed he did not belong to the Cyrus’s lineage.

    Amestris a niece of Darius is mentioned several times in the texts. She was married to a man called Craterus but was soon abandoned by him and after her divorce was remarried to Dionysius, a local ruler.

    The only direct account is ALEXENDER ‘s wedding at Susa with the Iranian princess Stateira a daughter of the defeated king Darius III. As reported by the Greek historians the wedding was carried out in PERSIAN TRADITION. “The bride entered the room and sat beside the bridegroom. He took her hands and kissed them. The two ate from the same loaf of bread sliced in two parts by a sword and drank some wine. After the ceremony her husband took the bride home”.

    http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h02.htm

    Both Maurice and Khosru saw the war between their two countries as troublesome. The Persians, moreover, were being invaded from the east by Turks. And Maurice’s help to Khosru II brought peace between Constantinople and Persia, with KHOSRU II MARRYING A CHRISTIAN PRINCESS from Constantinople and maintaining good relations with Maurice.

    http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Law/family_law.htm
    Although the ancient Iranians were endogamous as a people, some monarchs married foreign, non-Zoroastrian women. The Parthian king Phraates IV (ca. 40-3/2 B.C.E.) married the Italian slave girl Thesmousa, Yazdegerd I (399-420) the Jewish Sôšandukòt, and K¨osrow II the Byzantine princess Maria and the Armenian Šîrên.

    —————————————————————————————————————————–

    So Rustomjee , shouldn’t you ask Khojstee Misty and his WAPIZ CIRCUS to show consistency…since Mobeds like Madan and Mirja are banned for breaking your beloved Zarathusti tradition as per VENDIDAD … you should be also excommunicate all ACHAEMENIAN, PARATHIAN AND SASSANIAN Kings and their MOBEDS , declaring them NonZoroastrians for the same reason.

    ——————————————————————————————————————

    Rustomjee==>Infact last year a Prof at Harward, commented IN Bombay on how the zoroastrians in India Pak had maintained the similarity in rituals to atleast the sasanids…

    What a bunch of loosers … even 62 years after independence bawas still lick gora arss for compliments… get real, in which spectrum of rituals do dubra chasniwalas in agiaries fit in?

  • rustom jamasji

    Farzana on ure examples of Iranian Fire temples..

    Would you cite examples for non conversion or not converting to Zoroastrianism…since Iran’s laws clearly has death penalty for anyone converting to Zoroastrianism from Islam..???

    Fire temples are open in Iran cause the Shah of Iran’s wife wanted to visit it..and ofcourse the ‘Islamic Republic’ which infacts states a lot for the republic n its laws can again be missed…!Also the glass structure can be left out of the context..

    What a wonderfull comparision..

    Farzana ..As far as ure quotation on the dhansakia Bawaji..

    The syndrome of dhansakhia bawa was prevailant amongst the makers of the fire temples and also the one who put in place the laws governing it..Frazana..yeah they were dhansakhia Parsis..infact Rustom framna was a cook for the maharaja of (I think )Jaipur……

    Also it was a dhansakha bawa of India , Mr Maneckji Limji Hataria who went to Iran and paid fot the Jizya tax for the Iranian Zoroastrians..

    It was a lady Dhanakhi bawi from India who built a hostel for Zoroastrains ladies in Iran..

    It was again the dhansakhi bawa who paid for giving the Boi ceremoney in a fire temple in Baku…
    (cud someone throw light on the boi ceremony Today in Iranian fire temples..?)

    But then makers of fire temples iN INdia and giving laws regarding their donations are again belittled by those who are devoid of historical points as well as G.K of laws governing an Islamic Republic ….

    But then again
    After me pointing out and writing that Pof Hinells, Boyce’s Rusells etc works are proofs, Farzana can understand such as me claiming that their study are hearsay..!!Thats ure wisdom Farzana….but..surprisingly when i gave proofs of Boyce etc..it was taken as not proofs by ure cotorie..in particular Dhondidix..

    As far as heredotus and ure writing about him being a historian..thats exactly what I said…and about him commenting on the zoroastrian system of exposure of their dead..about ure assumptions of the note..well u even assumed that he had second hand information..now u contradict ureself..

    On the solar panel issue..

    gosh..and u blame others of having horse blinds!!!

    ..the principle of exposure of the dead is important..!!and it is maintained..Also the experiment was towards strenghtening the princple..and i have also maintained the solution lies in an aviary project..

    Are you serious when you sort of take advanage of loopholes and thwart efforts when zoroastrian systems are strenghtened keeping in view the perspective of keeping intact the zoroastrian principle!!!

    Gosh u wud have told the zoros escaping Iran that they shudnt cause they didnt have all the books intact or some sort of measly excuse.!!!..

    Phiroz, indeed if u do study them you’ll come acroos a term called ‘Sepulchre’….

    and indeed if u read the vendidad or Bioyce, Hinells etc, they also refer to vendidat and its context of temporary burial..

    Anyways i am atleast thankfull that atleast some sort of intelect points have been brought up by the anti dakhma brigade..yet feel dissapointed when shelter is taken under loophiole like the solar panel …and also mutilating my words of ‘proofs in writing of Historians like Boyce, Hinells, Rusell’ into thinking it or understanding it as being ‘hearsay.
    I wonder why u guys havent used the excuse of a dakhma in Iran being used asa racing track to stop the practise In India…

    I wish you guys a happy new year..and hope you rise above petty distortions and loopholes taken that coincide with the ones used to stop zoroastrian practises by those who butchered our forfathers!

  • Siloo Kapadia

    Notice the number of posts under this article, and the number of posts under nearly every other article on Parsi Khabar. Obviously this is a very touchy topic and more articles concerning the acceptance of non-Parsees should appear on this web site.

  • phiroz

    Line 9 of post dated 16th Aug of R.J.”Infact I have and state that there is no injuncture for solar panels in any texts”
    Going by this level of argument that there is no injunction against Solar Panels, then there is no Injunction against Electric Crematoria as well. No fire is defiled by electricity.So does R.J.accept Electric cremation going by his own rational that there is no injunction?.

  • piloo

    I fully agree that Trust Deeds are sacrosanct and the Object of the maker of the Trust i.e. the Settlor’s wishes can NOT be altered without approval of the competent Court. BUT will some one explain the follwing:
    Godavra Fire Temple (under BPP with 2 WAPIZ Trustees) sells Well water to Tankers. The Well water was meant for Religious Ceremonies.Likewise, Banaji Atasbehram Well water is being sold to Water Tankers. Here too a WAPIZ activist is a Trustee.DO TRUST DEEDS OF THESE FIRE TEMPLES PERMIT COMMERCIAL EXPLOITATION OF NATURAL GIFT OF WATER an object of Worship- Ava Yazad?
    So Trustees can breach object clause of Trust Deeds when it suits them provided they belong to WAPIZ.
    Some ‘consistency’ in observing the objects of truste Deeds!

  • farzana

    Quoting rustomjee==>”Farzana on ure examples of Iranian Fire temples..

    Would you cite examples for non conversion or not converting to Zoroastrianism…since Iran’s laws clearly has death penalty for anyone converting to Zoroastrianism from Islam..???

    Fire temples are open in Iran cause the Shah of Iran’s wife wanted to visit it..and ofcourse the ‘Islamic Republic’ which infacts states a lot for the republic n its laws can again be missed…!Also the glass structure can be left out of the context..

    What a wonderfull comparision..”

    Huh?? What has anti-conversion laws of iran got to do with the issue of fire temple being open to all in iran?
    Fyi since my childhood i visit mandirs, churches, darghahs, guru dwaras… nobody has ever urged me to convert, nor have i felt the need even when there is no bar on me to convert if i wish to.

    You seem to have lot of time in hand to write loooong comments with no substance.

  • farzana

    Just want to point out that Iranians who want to convert to Zoroastrianism travel to countries where there is no bar on conversion, and get converted. Im happy for them.

    Iran has anti conversion laws against conversions of muslims to other religions because islam prohibits muslims converting to other religions… THEY HAVE NO BAR ON NONMUSLIMS WHO WANT TO CONVERT TO ISLAM…ON THE CONTRARY THEY FACILITATE CONVERSIONS OF NONMUSLIMS PARTICULARLY ZOROASTRIANS IN IRAN TO ISLAM.

  • farzana

    R.J==>”Infact last year a Prof at Harward, commented IN Bombay on how the zoroastrians in India Pak had maintained the similarity in rituals to atleast the sasanids…n thus enables zoroastrian studies as the practises help learn about the hows and the theory helps us understands the why’s of such!!!”

    Sassanids were known to forcibly convert parjats in their territories to their brand of Zoroastrianism … i wonder what appro goro prof has to say on policy of anti conversion publicize by WAPIZ as Zoroastrian tradition… Any idea?

  • Anti Dhongidox

    Farzana,
    The double standards of our ‘pure’ Parsses particlarly in Bombay are very obvious. Any Parsee who visits Fire Temples particularly during Muktad would have noticed that helpers/ Chasniwalas,are NOT fully Parsees. Their facial expressions,their Gujarati accent are a give away. I am not being a racist for fair complexion, nor do I expect them to converse in English. I am just putting up a mirror before those who talk of Tokham but avail of services of rural converts.Yet if these ‘intellectuals’ wish to turn a blind eye and evade this glaring ‘exception’ then they prove my point that they believe in double standards but preach to gullible about racial purity.

  • farzana

    True AntiDhongidox, hypocrites like Rustom Jamasp give selective references from history in support of their self interests. When he wrote contribution of some 3-4 dhansakiya bawajis he deliberately left out references of rich ‘PURE’ dhansakiya bawajis who started ‘DUBRA’ race by sexually exploiting poor domestic servants and gullible farm labourers.
    Many of these orthodox bawajis are direct beneficiaries from charities started by some of these Dhansakiya Bawajis who once indulged in opium trades and labour exploitation, so it works in their self interest to look the other way when question of dubras employed in firetemples comes up.

    As far as historical evidences are concern there are ample of them pointing to Zoroastrian kings indulging in mix marriages, rampant polygamy, keeping of hundreds of nonzoroastrian concubines in their harems and forcible conversions into Zoroastrian faith. Infact King Shapur was known to have set Armenian villages ablaze when villagers refused to embrass Zoroastrianism. Alexander was known to have married King Darius’s daughter according to Zoroastrian rites obviously conducted by a Zoroastrian mobed. There are loads and loads of such examples that can fly on faces of those who swear by the legless theory of ‘tokham pasbani’.

    Red herring- Rustomjee, im a student of history , ive studied histories of various religions including Islam and Vedic… So plz dont dream of inventing any here.

  • rustom jamasji

    farzana. on ure sasanids were known to forcibly convert others..again ..the sasanids tried and get back zoroastrians that were lured away by other faiths particularly the one that aided in breakaway of Armenia..
    Sasanids are blamed by those who couldnt completely destroy or end zoroastrianism as being intolerant..
    I have cited examples of St Vartan, one would do beter reading history and taking account of the era before passing judgement..also one cud read Justi’ Boyce and other’s point on such..

    As your remark on visiting durgah etc, I dont think any zorooastrian has stopped you..and find ure point out of context,though Idol worship is termed as banal to zoroastrianism as such with the respective philosophies.!
    Also for your convinenience you can fuse zoroastruianism with Islam, hinduism etc …Infact feel free to worship St Vartan also…yet it doesnt change history now shud it change zoroastrian principles..

    Again my Iranian example was because you cited an example of fire temples being open in Iran..n gave the reasons for so..since you took refuge in policies followed in Iran n thus want all fire temples to be opened up, I cited the anti conversion law in Iran..and wondered if you guys would stop conversions to z’ism since ots taboo in Iran….but as always u guys WANT selective examples..

    As far as harping on the solar panel and electrical crematorium..
    1) Since your cotorie has now graduated from questioning the existence of books regarding exposure pf corpses to the sun..now you shud start thinking logically…and that maintainence of the principle..i,e exoposure to the sun..

    As far as electrical crematorium or any crematorium, burning of the corpse is banal to zoroastrianism..

    Please also read my lines which i ave quoted umpteen times that the aviary is the only long lasting permanent solution….

    As far as the solar panels, i have said that it was an experiment meant to preserve the zoroastrian practise instead of going totally against it…

    Latky I urge yoy to read about something called ‘demographic change’..which is very prevalant in the world today…and it means witha large population change, the customs and practises of a certain place/community changes…infact ure visiting dargahs etc MAY have been rooted in such…and since we are very minuscle we shud protect outs by preserving it and passing zoroastrianism to the next generation…not do banal things to zoroastrianism, claim to be zoroastrians or following zoroastrianism cause then it passes on a wrong meaning of zoroastrianism…

    For that one must have the wisdom to realise that for surviving as zoroastrians, zoroastrian systems n practises must survive and ve kept alive , and for that one must follow zoroastrianism and not aid in fusing it..

  • Anti Dhongidox.

    Farzana and other likeminded:
    In ancient Persia there was no vegatation and perhaps for this reason we are all non vegetarians. Then how come:

    1. We revere Bahman Ameshaspand,

    2. Many of us observe Bahman Mahino by not eating flesh;

    3. Family members/ mourners do not consume flesh for 3/4 days after demise of a family members.

    Are these not customs ?

    Do they form a part of Religious Injunctions.? Answer is a BIG N O.

    One boarder here has talked of doctrine of Cypres to make next best use of the property. The crying need of our Parsee population is a Senior Citizens Home taking into account the age profile of our population.
    A building for Senior Citizens on Doongerwadi land would be an ideal place.
    Do we require such a large property just to cater to 2 to 3 death ceremonies a day, though on certain days there are none.This calls for introspection so that in future there is NO commercial exploitation of this premium property.

  • Anti Dhongidox.

    Those who talk of sanctity of object clause of Trust Deed shamelessly talk of Aviary project on Community Land. Will it not be change in the object of Truat Deed?
    Which is nearer to the original Object – “Offering prayers” irrespective of mode of disposal of mortal remains OR “Captive breeding”. The answer is obvious for those with elementary common sense but for those having inherent double standard mentality the answer will be other than the obvious.
    Let the boarders decide which usage will be incidental and nearer to the original object.

  • Voice of Reason

    So at last Mr. R J. concedes that with population changew, customs and practices undergo a change =quote “Latky I urge yoy to read about something called ‘demographic change’,which is very prevalant in the world today…and it means witha large population change, the customs and practises of a certain place/community changes’ unquote.
    Once again, as usual he gets confused when he says that Electric Crematorium would mean burning the corpse. Even under Solar Panels DO NOT bodies get charred.
    Recollect, Mr Jamasji, the ‘fire’ that took place at the Towers 2 years ago.Was it not due to Solar panels, as claimed? OR was the Community taken for a ride. YOU DECIDE.
    It seems that more one write, the more one ends up confusing himself and at times even contradicting his own pompous pronouncements and interpretation of Texts.Jamasji constantly refers to archaeology. Dictionary definition of Archaeology is the systematic study of past human life and culture by the recovery and examination of remaining material evidence, such as graves, buildings, tools, and pottery. Archaelogy shows WAY OF LIFE DURING THE RELEVANT PERIOD and IT IS NOT A RULE BOOK FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, however much he would like your readers to get confused.

  • farzana

    “farzana. on ure sasanids were known to forcibly convert others..again ..the sasanids tried and get back zoroastrians that were lured away by other faiths particularly the one that aided in breakaway of Armenia..”

    ‘tried to get back Zoroastrians who were lured away by other faiths’ haa haaa nice play of words, Rustomjee…
    In simple language- Zoroastrianism just like any religion was spread actively via conversions unlike what gullible in the community are lead to believe.

    So than why is WAPIZ calling Faramroze Mirza- ‘dishonest and renegade’ priest for converting Uzbekistanis and Tajikistanis who wished to revert to Zoroastrianism out of their freewill?
    Who gave WAPIZ the right to judge others?
    Aren’t they too ‘DISHONEST and RENEGADE’ for misguiding the community by pretending to be righteous sole arbiters and interpreters of Zarathustra’s teachings while openly practising double standards?

    As for issues on cremation or dokhmenashini… show me the verse from Gatha that talks about Dokhmenashini as the only option for followers of Zoroastrianism…
    Gathas are words of Zarathustra, no other book written hundreds of years after Zarathustra can overwrite authority of Gathas within the religious domain of Zoroastrianism. period.

  • Phiroz

    What is the meaning of the Word ‘Banal”, when the Mr.Know all proclaims “As far as electrical crematorium or any crematorium, burning of the corpse is ‘banal’ to zoroastrianism” I have referred to more than one Dictionary and the word banal = means Commom place./ possessed in Common.
    Does this Know All have a separate set of Dictionary or has he had a change of thinking and joined the remaining bloggers with a sense of reason. He alone can clarify.

  • rustom jamasji

    @ Dhongidox..
    U ask why do we revere Bahman Ameshaspand..
    Infact we revere all amesaspentas and yazatas.
    Bahman is in charge of the animal kingdom and also associated with vohumano…
    The debate of not consuming flesh in that month has raged..yet by eating or abstaining from eating meat on that day dosnt change the principle of revering the amesaspentas , nor the principle behind the ameshaspentas, nor the principle of the individual ameshaspenta…
    Yes the logic of abstaing from not eating during the month, may go contra as then in amardad month,shud one abstain from vegetarianism.
    Yet i also say that there is atleast 1 injuncture (i think in the denkard) that suggest that we abstain from non veg…though there are many that suggest opposite..
    There are certain mysterious like these as again thru the 3 holocausts, our books were burnt and priests slaid..and gathering such was one of the biggest feats of our forfathers…and thus i keep on repeatng that the the final proof of the pudding is in the practises put in place by the saviours of zoroastrianism…

    As far as archeology and VOR’s point of view, I think S/HE only strenghtens what i have said…that archeological findings only go to explain the customs, rites, practises of a community.society/state etc..and in the example i cite, such findings go on to prove my point of zoroastrians in ancient persia exposing the dead to the sun..I dont see a debate here..yet i guess these are feeble and frustrated attempts to end dokhmenishini..
    As for the future generations, again there is no rule that the future generation shud practise the faith of their forfathers i,.e zoroastrianism, yet wud you tell the hindus to stop following their philosophy or muslims to end their practises …? I mean VOR’slogic cud say that just because our ancestors prayed the atash niyash or avesta doesnt mean the future generation shud pray it or follow zoroastrianism…well leave zoroastrianism if you wish VOR…no One has a problem..but excuse us from such warped logic..

    On the gatha talking on the dokhmenishini, it doesnt..yet it also doesnt talk of the kusti rituals…farzana one shud know that the gathas and avesta go hand in hand to explain things, ..the atash niyash doesnt talk of the moon, yet do u disregard the mah bokhtar niyas…
    Yes as i said you and the gatha alone cult which banishes everthing that the saviours of zoroastrianism put in place, achive the same that macedionians .byzantines and islamists trued to achieve by burning our books…
    You are free to banish everything the saviours of zoroastrianism put in place, nullify the era of sasanians putting back in place things destroyed by alexander and other wars…the gatha alone cult also does the sudreh pooshi ceremony though the gathas done talk of it..

    A far as aviary project going against the trust deeds of doongerwaadi…gosh u guys will stoop to any level to thwart procedures that keep in mind zoroastrian principles and further its existence…
    Th aviary project would only ensures the continuation of a zoroastrian system, and also ensures the passing on and survival of zoroastrian system.
    The dongerwaadi lands were for a zoroastrian system of exposure of dead and with the aviary this sytem would not ony survive but zoroastrians would then be able to practise zoroastrianism instead of deeds exactly opposite to z’ism..
    As i said earlier you guys give excuses on lines that would have put a stop to out forfathers escaping persucutions due to loop holes found in saving zoroastrianism..

  • Religious but Rational.

    Hi all.
    Khordad Sal Mubarak,
    Phiroz,
    Right you are Banal does mean commonplace.

    Will the Principal of D.P.Y.A. School consider admitting MID TERM a septuagerian for crash course in English!

  • farzana

    😀 Piroz, thanks for the good laugh… :)))

    Anti Dhongidox, i remember an iranian prof on another blog telling me of a place in Tajikistan where ppl in pre islamic times revered to a tomb believed to be Zarathustra’s. After the establishment of Islamic regime, the tomb was desecrated and a mosque was built over it…Anyway the gist of the matter is, burial was a common form of disposal amongst the Parsus.
    Dokmenashini system was deviced to dispose large number of dead bodies with not enough burial grounds to accommodate all… ie during epidemics or after battles…Even in such times, the royalties and rich prefered burials to dokmas…

    So basically dokhmenashini was a custom adopted to suit the times, it has nothing to do with religion per se…

    Rustomjee, a nice quote by Rabbi Hillel – “He who refuses to learn deserves extinction.”

  • Anti Dhongidox

    The reasons behind criticism of my views by one sole blogger is the outcome of his frustration. It is because not a single boarder has endorsed his bigoted views but instead overwhelmingly all boarders have commended my approach to the issue. His views supposedly supported by deep knowledge of history and graffiti of earlier centuries, is irrelevant in the present context. One cannot help a person who pours more and more water around the muddy ground where he is standing . He is in a mire of his own making. His outbursts are therefore treated by me and the likeminded as compliments and his total disability to argue and contest with reason demonstrate hollowness of his knowledge.
    Why has the LAST WORD IN ZOROASTRIANISM(?) refrained from replying a pertinent point raised by “VOICE OF REASON” and I quote “Even under Solar Panels DO NOT bodies get charred.
    Recollect, Mr Jamasji, the ‘fire’ that took place at the Towers 2 years ago.Was it not due to Solar panels, as claimed? OR was the Community taken for a ride. YOU DECIDE’
    How convenient to evade inconvenient question. This the level of intellectual ‘honesty’!
    RELEVANCE RATHER OTHERWISE OF ARCHAELOGY HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED.
    FORTHER MY FOLLOWING QUESTIONS ARE PERTINENT AND SET A EVEN A DUMB MIND TO THINK:

    1)Diclofenac is banned for veterinary usage NOT for humans. Nothing prevents traders of
    animals/shepherds from administering Diclofenac meant for humans on goats, sheeps and
    other cattle.

    2.) Even assuming the ban on veterinary Diclofenac to be 100 percent effective, humans will continue to be prescribed this drug. All Parsees do not consult Parsee Medical practitioners.
    (This is to avoid a plea from your side that Parsee doctors would be ‘requested’ not to prescribe this drug for Parsee patients.)

    3)Besides Diclofenac, pesticides and industrial pollutants have taken a toll on birds of prey. If
    you have read J Perry Jones, you would know of this fact.

    4) Will B.P.P. insist on an Affidavit on Stamp Paper of Rs. 20/ to be executed by the treating
    Doctor that the deceased was NOT ADMINISTERED Diclofenac? WHO WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR UNTIMELY DEATH OF THESE Birds. Are BPP Trustees going to sue the certifying Medicos?

    5) Do you expect birds of prey brought up in captivity, to be able to fly later? It is like rearing a toothless tiger.

    6) Once fed on fresh succulent slaughtered meat of goats/sheeps etc, how will these birds adjust to diseased human – Skeletal bodies contaminated by drugs.?

    7) When the birds refuse to consume dead human bodies, will proponents of ‘aviary’ supplement
    their diet with Animal meat OR ALLOW THE BIRDS TO STARVE?

    8) In order to prevent starvation of birds, if the authorities choose to supplement diet with
    animal meat then would it not mean sacrilege of Bahman Ameshaspand? Will not the sacred grounds give a stench of a Slaughter house? Is this your concept of Heaven on Earth?

    If exposure to Sun is indeed prescribed, then would it not be a better solution to have coils below the Paavis, emitting heat generated by electricity thus expediting decomposition.24 X 7?
    Wonder if a bigoted mind, full of preconceived notions and self -righteousness could have thought of this. The place of resting must remain for this purpose only unless those who talk of ‘majority are with us’ are allowed to mislead the community and allowed to create a ‘Stenching hell’. It is time for Bawas of Godrej Baug and Spenta Buildings, (who will be most affected) to shed their slumber, before it is too late.
    A CUSTOM IS NOT A RELIGION OR A PART OF RELIGION. DUSTOMS CHANGE OVER A PERIOD OF TIME
    _____

  • Anti Dhongidox

    Quote from “Last word in Zoroastrianism HIS Post of 24th):-
    “I dont see a debate here..yet i guess these are feeble and frustrated attempts to end dokhmenishini..”
    My Comment: IS THERE ANYTHING LEFT TO END? AND
    IF IT IS “WORKING” THEN WHERE IS THE QUESTION OF AVIARY EXPERIMENT?

  • Voice of Reason.

    “gosh u guys will stoop to any level to thwart procedures that keep in mind zoroastrian principles and further its existence…’
    Yes, thinking minds with a perspective ‘stoop’ to put on thinking caps and question those who endlessly preach their made up version of Zoroastrianism.
    Mr. Jamasji, you should take to Cricket coaching, how to evade a bouncer. WHY HAVE YOU EVADED REPYING A PERTINENT QUESTION OF MY EARLIER POST WHICH I REPRODUCE HEREBELOW TO “REFRESH” YOUR MEMORY.
    “Even under Solar Panels DO NOT bodies get charred.
    Recollect, Mr Jamasji, the ‘fire’ that took place at the Towers 2 years ago.Was it not due to Solar panels, as claimed? OR was the Community taken for a ride. YOU DECIDE.” Instead of replying this you allege that others ‘stoop’. What are you trying to portray? YES,those with thinking caps “stoop” and those with high level of ethics such as you economise on truth/reality and indulge in supression of facts as they are and cleverly suggest something which is convenient to your lobby.You just want to IMPOSE your views on others.

  • Exuberant Parjaat

    How enlightening. I am personally very glad that the 2 dastoors decided to take this stand and IGNORE what trustee mis(trust)tree had to say. As a 21 year old “parjaat” who loves zarthosht and his philosophy (im also dating a bawa, wear a farohar and say the ashem vohu), I am wondering what the dhondigox dhansakiya lot have to say about this? will my partner be condemned to eternal damnation because he falls in love with –
    1)a boy.
    2)a parjaat boy.
    3)he doesn’t prefer the ambience of a dokhma at his time of bucket-kicking. 😛

    I eagerly await enlightenment.
    Of course, rusty jam and gang is requested to tone down a vociferous attack, if any. 🙂

  • rustomjam@yahoo.com

    Dhongo dox..

    Once again u mutilate my words or as always show ignorance.
    Have you jaundiced eyes when I wrote umpteen times on topics debated by you that the Zoroastrioan system like any other system needs maintainence and strenghtening.Have you missed out when i wrote that due to neglect we must act faster and swifter. Instaed of arguing we shud USE MODERN TECHNOLOGY, SCIENTIFIC EXPERTISE, AND WORLD SUPPORT to strenghten zoroastrian system
    But you labelled using and benefiting from MODERNITY as being backward.
    U label efforts that forsee and working towards continuation of zoroastrians system so that zoroastrianism can survive as being outdated.

    As far as your and ure cotories judgement of me, I stand above tose who feel that the Persian empire didnt have tools to dig…those who pass judgement and then ask for textual proofs, those when given textual proofs and historians studying such…claim that they are not proofs..then by anohter of ure member play word games and Understand my print of ‘proofs of historian’s studies and their refernces in books’ as claiming to be 2nd hand information..
    Nullifying demographic change which is prevalaint today,nullifying examples of such in the world as being irrelavant..

    citing archelogical evidence as ‘no proofs’ n then saying it shows only customs etc..
    Blaming those who want to GIVE BACK to zoroastrian systems as talibanistic by those who WANT from it AGAIN..
    tHOUGH NOT BEING FORCED TO FOLLOW Z PRINCIPLES ever , yet try desperately to end its system and thwart efforts to strenghten it..
    Use bahman amesapentas excuse to not feed animals!!!..(do u really beleve ureself)
    Cite justifications on the likes of the ‘gatha alone cult’ who negats everything that the saviours of zoroastrianism brought back..et all

    on ure ban on the drug..do u think Dr Vighu Prakash thru BHNS who according to reports has joined hands with BPP is ignorant of ure claims?? U might even condemn those who take his experience with more seriousness than ur thirst and stopping to all levels to end this system..

    On farzanas latest claims that dakhmas were only built for epidemics and for accomodation of large quanitites during war…lets see how history during the last century proves her wrong…
    It was during an epidemic that an idea to shut down dokhma crept up…

    also when the saviours of zoroastrianism built various dakhmas at various places what epidemc or wars were they facing in all such lands that they built the dakhma..?

    As i said you guys thirst to find loopholes to end zoroastrian system…

    On changes happening with time..yes we wear shirts and pants,the latest shoes, wear the best perfumes,talk multilingual, fly the latest planes, east chinese in alaska….but since when has that justified the changing of Archimeded princple, or principles of physics dealing with salinity of water and submarnes, or that of electricity or light…or einsteins theory..or guiderians on tank infantry or zoroastrian principles of cremation being a no no to zoroastrianism…or the principles of amesaspentas or that of the twin spirits that are diferent in thought, actions and deedsm, one being life and one being anti life…a zoroastrian principle being very distict or different from hindu, islam or any faith…

    Why shud and how come does a social change which we all adapt justify in changing a principle o zoroastrianism…for example of consecrating a fire temple by taking a fie from a burning corpse? there is no confrontation here to a social change and maintain zoroastrianism….

    Those who change arbitaraly are like loose kites in the air( caled kati patang) or like ships without a destination..winds change yet sails are set to achieve a goal…

    Just like you guys adapt to all loopholes to achieve ure thirst to end dokhhmenishini Though not forced to adapt to it..

  • Piloo

    Anti Dhongidox & Farzana,
    It requires wisdom to decide when to refrain from writing/blogging/indulging in a tirade. Those who suffer from foot in the mouth ailment can not have that wisdom.
    BTW, Anti Dhongidox, you have failed to mention the consequences if a Vulture strays in to Dakhma, {a consecrated place} with supplemental animal flesh. Those who think it necessary to purify a place of Worship where a “Paarjat” entered have a lot of explanation in this regard.
    Agree fully, that a place of Resting and Prayers should remain so. Community does not want a showpiece of a Bird Sanctuary -Singapore Style to flaunt to white skinned travellers with Cameras.
    HOW many years will it take to reforest the area – at least 15 and for rearing birds of prey atleast 10.
    So what does community do in the meantime.

  • farzana

    Quoting Rustomjee==>”As far as archeology and VOR’s point of view, I think S/HE only strenghtens what i have said…that archeological findings only go to explain the customs, rites, practises of a community.society/state etc..and in the example i cite, such findings go on to prove my point of zoroastrians in ancient persia exposing the dead to the sun..I dont see a debate here..yet i guess these are feeble and frustrated attempts to end dokhmenishini..”

    RJ, dont quote my comments out of context. I clearly stated, dokhmenishini was originally devised in Persia to dispose large number of deaths that took place after spread of epidemics or battles…as it was difficult to accomodate all of them in burial grounds.
    Persians practised this custom out of compulsion, that doesnot mean dokhmenishini as anything to do with Zoroastrianism as a religion.

    Just like Sati was the custom that was once practised… now with changing times, it has lost its relevance… Just as once polygamy was accepted amongst Parsis too… but not anymore…These were customs, just like dokhmenishini, you can’t forcibly keep harping on them after they cross their expiry dates, and make it an emotional issue…

  • rustom jamasji

    On farzanas latest claims that dakhmas were only built for epidemics and for accomodation of large quanitites during war…lets see how history during the last century proves her wrong…
    Before that lets take a look at textual sources n refrences in zoroastrian texts..

    If the only reason for dakhmenishini was epidemics and war etc..why does the funeraray laws with respect to z’ism strictly condemns cremation..also why the refernce to taking a fire from a burning corpse to consecrate it…whilst making an adarian/atashvehram

    If epidemcs and large scale accomodation were the reasons for dakhmenishini…why the importance to expose to the suns rays were given…wheather during or not during an epidemic or war..

    WHY is burial mentioned and also the effects on spendarmard..( the ameshaspenta whos domain is the earth) …who is supposed to be saddened by burial…

    Why in the chapters of funerarary practises is Khordad or Avaan mentioned and thus regards not to dispose off dead at sea or in water

    Now historically
    It was during an epidemic that an idea to shut down dokhmas crept up…!!not to start it..during the last centurry.. Again this was put off as scientficaly it was proved contra to the belief

    Also when the saviours of zoroastrianism built various dakhmas at various places what epidemc/s were they facing in all such lands that they built the dakhma..?
    Also what wars were faced whilst building the dakhmas at all the various places..

    Do please also give a glance at Jame Jamshed dated 11th June 1905 and 8th July 1905..it might refresh you of some history and Judge Dinsha Daver’s words on the anti dakhma brigade then!!

    It will also aid in shedding away some armchair philosophies that makes you Now compare practise of sati with that of deeds of our ancestors who fought, sacrificed just to ensure continuation of zoroastrian systems…

    As i said you guys thirst to find loopholes to end zoroastrian system…

  • Anti Dhongidox

    Farzana,
    This single person has one point agenda that is to force his concept of Custom as being the best and that others should follow his ‘learned’ advice. He does not read the writing on the Wall that he is a ready volunteer to be a source of ‘Naasta’ for others.
    If he has any sense of uprightness he would have NOT evaded following issues raised by many boarders:
    1) Half Parsee Chasniwallas,
    2) Fire at Towers 2 years back,
    3) Navjotes and Uthamnas of
    Super Rich non Parsees by
    HIGH PRIESTS.
    4) Burn marks caused by Solar
    Panels.

    He thinks he alone is correct and all others rogues/irreligious.There is sympotomatic of psychiatric ailment called OCCD.
    No point in arguing with a person who goes off tangent every time.
    The isssue here is prayers for the Parsee Zorastrian departed souls and like Radio Peking of 1960 he relentlessly talks of aviary experiment instead.
    If he is so sure of the success of Aviary experiment being a sucess, he should volunteer to provide an insurance cover for its failure which is imminent.To aim at publicity at the expense of Charity funds is like a paricipant in a Ghambar.
    To such minds a deceased crook who opts for defunct system is a pious individual but not a honest person, who though a regular visitor to Fire Temples chooses an alternate method of his mortal remains.It requires up bringing of highest orders to think and yet if one chooses to disagree then to do so withour being disagreable.
    Hurling diatribes at others,in fact at ALL, has got him no where.
    He claims that all other boarders are making a ‘feeble and frustrated attempts’ If our reasoned thinking expressed by us is indeed ‘feeble and frustrated’, then why does he get excessively worked up and replies every post, which replies convince NONE.?

  • TRUE ORTHODOX AOROASTRIAN

    Rustom,
    One would have expected a man of learning like u to have demolished at least one of the apprehensions (about Aviary project)out of 8 mentioned by Anti Dongi in his post of 25th.BUT you proved to be a total disappointment To my utter dismay you have displayed your shortcomings, rather disability to counter these apprehensions thus giving credibility to them.
    Even hard core supporters of your line of thinking now will be having second thoughts and believe that Aviary is not feasible and destined to be a fiasco.By picking up dialogues from T.V. like KATI PATANG, you have projected yourself like a HUMPTY DUMPTY or as the liberals will call out, Alice in BLUNDERLAND.

  • phiroz

    Bogus claim to Scholarship was bound to get exposed in its true colors one day and it happened not a day too soon.”USE MODERN TECHNOLOGY, SCIENTIFIC EXPERTISE, AND WORLD SUPPORT to strenghten zoroastrian system” is a quote from “Mr. Know All”
    Pray what is modern, Electricity or plucking by birds? System is something that works.
    One can rave as much as he likes but can NOT take all Bawas for a ride by hoodwinking them by quoting some texts out of context.
    This is a true case of ‘LIVE EXPOSURE’ of untruth.
    All Bawas are not so naive to believe a singular voice parroting the same issue again and again.
    Anti Dhongidox in his post of yesterday,has clearly exposed the loopholes in the Aviary project and the likely problems.He has gone undisputed.
    A lame post for the sake if it by Mr.Know All is devoid of any sense.
    This blog should carry a Statutory Warning that reading messages of a particular blogger can cause long term mental damage. It is not meant to be funny, it is not in lighter vein.
    It is time “Taro’ is used to purify the minds of those who stray away from path of Manashni, Gavashni, Kunashni to propagate and force their untenable obsolete and impracticable ideas in the name of Religion.Religion in Danger as a war cry now is as hollow as it can be.
    The cause of Orthodoxy has been damaged more by pompous bigots than by so called liberals.

  • Exuberant Parjaat

    Bravo. *Applause for farzana and co.*

    Rustom jammy please get your facts right first and stop behaving like a spoilt brat.

  • rustom jamasji

    True orthodox..well atleast make a start for showing ure support for the aviary project…
    I guess your cotorie have to better standing at best pseudo names posing as something else..atleast be what you guys claim to be…

    Surprisingly there are a lot of pseudo names cropping up in the anti dakhmka brigade…which try and portray they are not dhongi( false pretence)…yet they are..I hope you are not one of such and look forward to your positive constructions towards what u belive is right i.e aviary prject as you claim..Though the anti dakhma brigade has often cropped up with fictitious show of being pro zoroastrian systems…DDG;s main line standing out shows this…’fighting for continuation of zoroastrian systems like dokhmenishini is like fighting for the dead’ according to them…whilst they cudnt fathom that continuation of zoroastrian systems oversees continuation of zoroastrianism..
    But as you show ure keeness toards the aviary project…maybe u can better me..althoug i have quoted the texts, archiological evidence and historical profs and sudis carried out by historians…

    Dhongi dox….ure brigade cannot be intellcetual in debate, mutilates history, protrays ignorance of proofs before metting out judgement,shuns archilological evidence all uNder pseudo names..

    Do yo recollect I have often written that u guys betray even your cause by ignorance and claiming archiological evidence, texts etc as not enough proof..Ironically ‘True Orthodox Aoroastrians’ under the psuedo name gives judgement wthout contributing towards what S/He feels strongly towards..

    C’mon guys..tween you all atleast 1 intelectual point…

  • rustom jamasji

    @ Phiroz…
    SO now atleast you show that you feel that picking by birds is not the way you think one should be disposed but by cremation because it seems modern.

    Well lets see if the tibetans who use sky burials will buy that or the ones that bury take that into account.Infact atleast now you portray that you feel the philosophy of zarathushtra on exposing the dead is old fashioned.
    Yet there are pros and cons for every method of disposal.
    Studies researching the best form of disposing corpses almost start on the lines of ‘An average person may not contribute to the green-house effect throughout his life as much as he does in his death’.
    The research mostly takes into acount cremation and burial.
    On your what is modern, disposal by electricity or plucking by birds..’
    Well you have again missed the piont completely..
    I said we Shud use MODERN TECHNOLOGY,HARNESS WORLD EXPERTISE; AND USE SCIENTIFIC METHODS to strenghten Zoroastrian SYSTEM.
    On you comparing exposure of the dead to the suns due to certain norms of certain philosophy or crematorium..I hasten to add that crematoriums have their own cons…and thus asked you to read Dr Kharkhanawallas note on such. Also as quoted by a report ‘Crematoria emissions commonly violate mercury air emission standards and are a significant source of mercury emissions due to mercury in amalgam fillings. Amalgam related air emissions exceed coal plant emissions in UK.’..
    Result of plastic prostheses that cannot reasonably be removed prior to cremation is gasses lIke hydrogen chloride. It is estimated that for each pound of chlorinated plastic in cremation, 0.55 pounds of gaseous hydrogen chloride are emitted.

    Nitrogen oxides are the result of combustion in the presence of atmospheric nitrogen and are formed during cremation as well as from the body itself.
    Sulfur dioxides result from the gas used during cremation and that present in the container and cremains.

    I have previously pointed out il efefcts of burial and cremation citing news reports.Things like geeen burial have cropped up inthe West due to il effects of cremation .

    Of course in the garb of modernisation, you would not enhance but stop efforts to use modern technology to be in tune with zoroastrain principles…cause u dont like corpses being exposed to the sun or eaten by birds of prey. Yet there are few who would like to shut down agiaries due to such pseudo modernity…whilst the true modern man preserves using modern technology…

    On your sugestions to the blog owners to issue warnings of my writing albiet again behind viels like using pseudo names…your cotorie is the one that cntradicts your sugestions as they have always tried and come up with an contra argument ..again without any single intelectualargument but alwats shunning evidence ..be it textual, archeological or scientific or historical studies..

    And yes f you feel that zoroastrians systems are outdated..please feel free to leave zoroastrianism….not one zoroastrian would force zoroastranism on you or anyone…but whilst you claim that such are talibanistic..please dissuade yourself from mutilating history, deeds of our ancestors, and craving to end what you dont like…

  • farzana

    Rustom,
    Dont keep on harping on obscure texts…Teachings of Zarathushtra deviated from their original form after Zarathushtra …especially period from about 800 B.C. to about 200 A.D. During this period, the Younger Avesta appeared which incorporated ancient gods and archangels that were worshipped in the pre-Zarathushtrian period, like Mithra [Meher], Bahram, Anahita,Varun etc. and caused to a great extent, the deviation of the religion. Most of your argument rest on texts from Younger Avesta and Vendidad which were written hundreds/thousands of years after Zarathustra and most of which contradicts Gatha… So i dismiss your argument outright.

    Does Zarathustra himself advocates Dokhme-Nashini in Gathas?
    If yes, where?
    and if no, than your case as dokhmenashini being a religious complusion is dismissed.
    As a custom its outdated.

  • farzana

    True, Anti Dhongidox, Rustom Jihadi would go on and on like ghasaali record on dokmenishini…but i bet he will not dare to talk on mix parentage of khandiyas !!

  • farzana

    Of course in the garb of modernisation, you would not enhance but stop efforts to use modern technology to be in tune with zoroastrain principles…cause u dont like corpses being exposed to the sun or eaten by birds of prey. Yet there are few who would like to shut down agiaries due to such pseudo modernity…whilst the true modern man preserves using modern technology…

    So… whatz wrong with that? When the world has changed why should religious practice lag so far behind. Zoroaster was a visionary, progressive for his time in history. Would he have propagated dokhmenishin in today’s Bombay? No. Dokhmenishin was for an age without pollution, without cars, without computers. It’s incompatible with a modern technological age.

  • farzana

    Rustom j==> “Of course in the garb of modernisation, you would not enhance but stop efforts to use modern technology to be in tune with zoroastrain principles…cause u dont like corpses being exposed to the sun or eaten by birds of prey. Yet there are few who would like to shut down agiaries due to such pseudo modernity…whilst the true modern man preserves using modern technology…”

    So… whatz wrong with that? When the world has changed why should religious practice lag so far behind. Zoroaster was a visionary, progressive for his time in history. Would he have propagated dokhmenishin in today’s Bombay? No. Dokhmenishin was for an age without pollution, without cars, without computers without use of harmful medicines that endanger lives of vultures and other birds. It’s incompatible with a modern technological age.

  • phiroz

    WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO SUGGEST OTHERS TO “LEAVE ” ZOROASTRANISM? YOU ARE NO AUTHORITY AND THOSE WHO HAD SOME AUTHORITY RENOUNCED IT BY PERFORMING NAVJOTES & UTHAMNAS OF HIGH & MIGHTY NON PARSEES FOR MATERIAL FACTORS AND GETTING KNEE OPEARTIONS PERFORMED BY FOREIGN BASED SURGEONS (COURTESY CONVERTED PARSEES). I DO NOT NEED YOUR CERTIFICATE OF APPROVAL OF MY ZOROASTRAN WAY OF LIFE. IN FACT NO NEEDS IT FROM A CONFIRMED DHONGI SUCH AS YOU.
    OF COURSE AS USUAL, IN YOUR EYES I AM WRONG AS ARE ALL OTHER BOARDERS. THAT IS YOUR VIEW BUT NOT A FACT.
    I CARE A TUPPENCE FOR YOUR VIEWS ABOUT ME.
    IF AS OTHERS HAVE POINTED OUT, YOU DID HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OR A FRACTION OF CONVICTION YOU WOULD HAVE ADDRESSED CONCERNS OF
    ANTI DHONGI ON ANY OF THE 8 ISSUES. YOU COULD NOT EVEN CONTRADICT ONE POINT RAISED BY ANTI DHONGI.
    YES, AS OTHERS HAVE POINTED OUT, YOU ARE OUT TO GET FREE PUBLICITY OF YOUR NAME ON THIS BLOG BY WRITING ANYTHING ON ANY TOPIC. DO STAND AS A CANDIDATE FOR NEXT TRUSTEESHIP ELECTIONS WHENSOVER THEY ARE HELD. YOU WILL KNOW YOUR ‘SUPPORT BASE”

  • phiroz

    Farzana, Anti Dhongidox and others:

    QUOTE OF THE DAY:
    “C’mon guys..tween you all atleast 1 intelectual point…”

    This quote about one intellectual point is the JOKE OF THE DAY. LOOK WHO IS TALKING ABOUT “INTELLECTUAL POINT” IRONIC ISNT’ IT?

  • Anti Dhongidox.

    I am amused at the innuendo about pseudonyms raised by one boarder.As far as I am concerned, I registered my self as per the procedure initiated by Parsi Khabar and got my Password on my valid E Mail address.
    I am not afraid of censure or disapproval of my rational views expresed by me in my posts. It is just that I am not interested in free cheap publicity of my name, unlike one typical individual who leaves no opportunity to blog on any thing.
    Probably, that could be the reason for other Boarders, as well. But that is for them to clarify if they so deem it necessary since no boarder is answerable to another boarder.

  • Piloo

    Beware all, the Parsee self appointed Pope is furious and fuming. He thunders “And yes f you feel that zoroastrians systems are outdated..please feel free to leave zoroastrianism” All bloggers are shivering at the thought of discarding their Sadra Kusti as per Orders of self appointed Parsi Pope and having their Navjotes derecognised.He ‘alone is the mighty Authority – how dare we doubt that!
    One wonders why this solitary voice does not stand before an Echo Point and deliver his uninteligible sorry “intelligent” Bakwaas At least the Echo will strongly support his views may be with Archaelogical ‘evidence’.

  • Phiroz

    Disadvantages of one system are supposed to be the advantages of the opposite system. Isnt, it?
    Quote”Result of plastic prostheses that cannot reasonably be removed prior to cremation is gasses”
    Question: So new birds bred in captivity will be able to swaloow ‘plasic prostheses?
    Dr Karkhanawalla was a Scholar in the truest sense but he could not have envisaged the situation as it prevails now. How could he.
    In US too Christians have given up on Burial because of Cost considerations. Does it man they became non Christians. Certainly not. Religion has nothing to do with mode of disposal.
    BTW what is “HERBAL POWDER” if not Acid?

  • farzana

    Phiroz ===>”This quote about one intellectual point is the JOKE OF THE DAY. LOOK WHO IS TALKING ABOUT “INTELLECTUAL POINT” IRONIC ISNT’ IT?”

    :D:D aapro Rustom is a living oxymoron 😀 😀

    😀 btw, Rustomjee, i have an intellectual question for you, how many Rustomjee Jamasp does it take to change a light bulb? 😀

  • farzana

    Rustom===>”And yes f you feel that zoroastrians systems are outdated..please feel free to leave zoroastrianism…”

    On the contrary, Rustomjeee, with your kind of fervour, zeal and intolerance, you could get 72 houris in jannat and additional privileges like issuing fatwas daily and beheading those who dont agree with you,…. Just by formally joining Talibans and living in Dark ages forever ….think about it!!

  • Phiroz

    Farzana,
    Figures of Speech are not ‘BANAL’ and therefore difficult for ‘some one’ to follow.By the way this will be the 99th post on this topic.

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    I have been following this debate with amusement and a sense of deja vu. Whenever two or more Parsis congregate, it seems almost inevitable that they will start an argument. Also inevitably, the argument meanders aimlessly until a topic serendipitously presents itself – eg: dokhamenshi, in this case – which affords a golden opportunity for the gloves to come off, the knives to be sharpened and the protagonists to expend all their energy in scoring brownie points against each other. In the process, the original topic for discussion is totally obscured – as has happened in this case. The issue in question is whether the BPP trustees were justified in banning an unconventional dastur like Khushroo Madon.

    Belonging to an older generation, I remember an era when Parsis were renowned for their civility, their sophistication and, above all, their tolerance. There was none of this nonsense about bans and excommunications. As Farzana has pointed out, such unconstitutional practices can easily degenerate into unhealthy actions like fatwas, which we rightly abhor in some extremist societies.

    The “honourable” trustee Khojete Mistry has rather pompously stated “He may say whatever he wants to. But does he have the scholarship to make the contention that his actions are not irreligious. Madon is welcome to his personal point of view, but we have to look in terms of what the community wants and the majority are with us,” What Mistry is implying that he and his fellow trustees will decide what the community wants; and disputing their opinion constitutes a form of heresy.

    Let us now come to the issue of “scholarship”. Mistry has long made capital from his claim that he has spent years in the study of Zoroastrian texts and that makes him an almost infallible authority on the religion. No one disputes that he is well read, but the reality is that Zoroastrinism is not a monolithic entity. It’s ancient origins – in the absence of written evidence – is shrouded in mystery and conjecture. Morever, in the course of several centuries of evolution, Zoroastriasm has undergone many permutations. Subsequent ruling dynasties modified it to further their political ambitions. In this, they were willingly abetted by the clergy of the time who, after all, were dependant on the largesse of the kings and emperors. This, incidentally, is true of all religions.

    The point here is that no individual or group can claim to be the sole arbiters of our ancient religion. Indeed, it is this rigidity and refusal to accomodate conflicting points of view that has led to not just a quantitative, but a qualitative decline in the Parsi community.

    The BPP is the apex representative body of Parsis in India. In decades gone by, community members could justifiably point to their Trustees with pride, for they were indeed men of vision, understanding and tolerance. And what is the BPP today? During the recent Panchayat elections, the BPP was indistiguishable from any political party in this country. Personal attacks, innuendos and scurrilous emails were the order of the day. There were even thinly-disguised efforts to buy votes by throwing lavish dinners for members of Parsi colonies. It is said that we get the leaders we deserve – and so we have. And these same gentlemen are now presuming to issue bans and pontificate that they alone know is best for us. Well I, for one, do not buy it – and I hope I am not alone.

  • I would like to thank all the commenters on this post. This has been by far the most discussed and debated post on Parsi Khabar.

    I feel that every aspect of the issue (and then some !) have been voiced.

    I will close commenting on this thread. If you feel that you really have something to add that has not already been said in the 100 comments before, please use the Contact Us page and send me a note. I will post it as a comment after due review.

    Thanks

    arZan

  • Dear Rustom-saheeb!
    You mentioned about Dhansakhi Bawa who paid for giving the Boi ceremoney in Baku Ateshgah. Can you provide me any info about  Dhansakhi Bawa? When it was etc? Contact me farroukh(at)blagoverie.org

    Best wishes and warm words,
    Farroukh Jorat,
    Azerbaijan, Baku fire temple Ateshgah
    http://ateshgahtemple.az/index.php 

  • Dear Rustom-saheeb!
    You mentioned about Dhansakhi Bawa who paid for giving the Boi ceremoney in Baku Ateshgah. Can you provide me any info about  Dhansakhi Bawa? When it was etc? Contact me farroukh(at)blagoverie.org

    Best wishes and warm words,
    Farroukh Jorat,
    Azerbaijan, Baku fire temple Ateshgah
    http://ateshgahtemple.az/index.php