Controversial Renovations at Iranshah in Udvada

Date

January 29, 2009

Post by

arZan

We have received a note from Geve Eruch Narielwalla regarding the recent renovations at the Iranshah Atashbehram in Udvada.

Geve has put up a website about the same issue

The most sacred Zoroastrian Iranshah Fire Temple building, “makaan,” has ornamental additions made, in very poor imitation, inaccurate, with synthetic materials, of Zoroastrian symbols. This is a request, an urgent appeal to the Temple authorities to dismantle these, or redo, in white stone, marble, granite or bronze, so these not look like cheap imitations, but fitting for Zoroastrianism’s holiest site. – UdvadaRenovation

Below are photographs that were forwarded to Parsi Khabar that show the recent renovations. Personally I have not had a chance to see the renovations for myself as yet. However if you have, I would like to know your comments.

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22 Comments

  1. phiroz

    I fully agree with Geve.The holy place mst look clean, elegant and suitable for elderly Zoroastrians.
    The ‘symbols’ referred to by Geve, make the holy premises like a decorated stage and are in BAD taste.
    Trust that considering the aging profile of Zoroastrian pilgrims visting this sacred Fire temple, sone seating arrangements are made oppsite the Holy Fire, so that devotees can sit and offer prayers. Please do not expect an aging community to squat on the floor.

  2. Delnavaz

    Hi
    I agree with Geve. the Iranshah Atashbehram is our holiest site. It does not require any ornamentation. It is important to maintain the structure well & ensure cleanliness. Frequent renovation is a waste of time & money. Most important we Parsis cannot pray in the ‘Makaan’ because it is frequently closed for renovation. If the Udvada trust has extra funds, why not donate the same to other Fire Temples who are in need of funds.
    thanks

  3. Geve

    Thank you, Sam; I have submitted further clarification and details. Would those please be shown here also….this is becoming a frustrating lone crusade…..I am horribly shocked there is no response to this serious and reversible issue.

  4. Geve

    I submitted a comment earlier on the following lines:
    There is no controversy in that, my only interest is, any decorative additions should enhance the dignity and sancity of this holiest Zoroastrian place of worship. How is it inaccurate? All Persian bas reliefs of guards in ancient Persia were always potrayed in side profile, Achaemenid or Sassanian, never frontal as the two guards depicted on the new entrance gates; frontal profile is an Indian temple art form, as can be seen on many Hindu temple entrances. The Godrej Baug Agiary shows these correctly in good art. The two Oxen/bulls’ depiction is best seen at the Persepolis Gate of All Nations. They are depicted supporting the gate columns/arch(arch has dissapeared with time’s ravages) which symbolises the Zoroastrian belief of Geush Urvan as sacred divine oxen/bulls supporting the earth. The Cusrow Baug agiary has depicted these correctly as there also they seem to support the entrance. At Udvada they are shown free standing, the face seems correct but the body is too lean for an oxen, and generally many have opined already it seems to give a film set impression. Should we have done this to Udvada? Please visit my website and view pictures of some examples of recent works of other faiths.

  5. MALCUM BASTAWALA

    Hi Guys,

    We should appreciate the repairs done to Paak Iranshah at Udwada, rather than creating a hue and cry and u wasting your time,energy and money in giving photo’s and all nonsense on your website.

  6. manek tadiwala

    dear zeeba.
    i am resident of udwada and would like to bring the finer points to publication you have made. the amount used by the trustes is abserloutely their own money and they have not used anybody elses money but their own. i do not see why such a stupid contrevarsy is being created which has no sense or meaning.

  7. phiroz

    Issue here is not as to whose money is being spent.It is total bad taste with regard to such decorations. If some body disfigues a wall of a building by sticking a poster or painting, it can well be said that cost of poster/ paint was from the funds of the person who disfigured it and so the owner of the property should not complain. Your argument is as specious as that.
    By the way, it is Trust Funds that are spent and Trustees do not spent out of their own pockets.

  8. danish

    Mr. Malcum,
    Pl inform if “repais” were at all required.
    Secondly, can this be called “repair’. It amounts to RENOVATION.
    As for Manek,
    Please note that just because one resides in Udwada,his/her opinion can not be termed as authentic or final.Udwada prospers because of devotees from Mumbai & Gujarat, not because of a handful persons residing there.
    By the way, Manek, any Trust is a Public Trust and Trustees are custodians of Public funds placed in the Boxes. How it becomes their’own’ money?

  9. rustom

    Well guys..i think both the groups i.e the one for the renovation and the ones against what has been done are stating ther view points regarding to their feeling ‘FOR Zoroastrianism’ which in a way shows that oth te groups are thinking for the faith.
    Before this goes into a major ego hassle and divides the community though thoughts are put in for the faith which is rather a beautifull thought, lets try and examine each others feelings…

    At the onset @ danish…Yes udwada gets income since the devotees go there, yet the devotees wouldnt be able to go there if the Iranshah was taken care of by people residing in udvada. The Parsis have done a great injustice and left their sort of ‘prime village’ expecting it to be honky dory when we go there on our annual/monthly trips.
    In the 80s, there was a mass hysteria created that udvada houses would al be eaten up by the sea and seapage and Parsis sold and left their propety unatended, one walk there shows that all the properties are diapleted not due to the sea but due to neglegence…it also shows how many zoroasrians really care for the upkeep and studies of zoroastrianism thru the librara there. Property being bought over and loud Azaans or call to the faithfull of the muslim community rings in a place where the boi’ bells and avestan chants could be heard…
    So i a way buying property there and residing there , loking after the place is an important task which we have failed miserably..

    @ Manek..ure point is good, but again due to neglegence one cannot change the representation of a place…
    I for one feel the insde sanctum which was old had a sort of mystic value, for having the avestan chants being recited for centuries..
    Yes outside renovations doesnt seem to hamper, yet it should be done to represent the magnanimity of the place accordingly.

    Zoroastrian theology places stress on charity and building with the name of the person , so that this would push another zoroastrian do do a better deed.
    If those who are deeply hurt by the renovations or the winged bulls etc, please contribute with a better one, a better idea, a better piece so that ultimately the place would look even mre magnificient.

    The first rung might not look all that great, the ladder will prove when it takes us to a height.

    Lets get together and decide that the iner sanctum shud remain the same with the old stones etc..while a secondary persepoliis cud be built where the Iranshah glows boldly.

  10. rustom

    Well guys..i think both the groups i.e the one for the renovation and the ones against what has been done are stating ther view points regarding to their feeling ‘FOR Zoroastrianism’ which in a way shows that oth te groups are thinking for the faith.
    Before this goes into a major ego hassle and divides the community though thoughts are put in for the faith which is rather a beautifull thought, lets try and examine each others feelings…

    At the onset @ danish…Yes udwada gets income since the devotees go there, yet the devotees wouldnt be able to go there if the Iranshah was taken care of by people residing in udvada. The Parsis have done a great injustice and left their sort of ‘prime village’ expecting it to be honky dory when we go there on our annual/monthly trips.
    In the 80s, there was a mass hysteria created that udvada houses would al be eaten up by the sea and seapage and Parsis sold and left their propety unatended, one walk there shows that all the properties are diapleted not due to the sea but due to neglegence…it also shows how many zoroasrians really care for the upkeep and studies of zoroastrianism thru the librara there. Property being bought over and loud Azaans or call to the faithfull of the muslim community rings in a place where the boi’ bells and avestan chants could be heard…
    So i a way buying property there and residing there , loking after the place is an important task which we have failed miserably..

    @ Manek..ure point is good, but again due to neglegence one cannot change the representation of a place…
    I for one feel the insde sanctum which was old had a sort of mystic value, for having the avestan chants being recited for centuries..
    Yes outside renovations doesnt seem to hamper, yet it should be done to represent the magnanimity of the place accordingly.

    Zoroastrian theology places stress on charity and building with the name of the person , so that this would push another zoroastrian do do a better deed.
    If those who are deeply hurt by the renovations or the winged bulls etc, please contribute with a better one, a better idea, a better piece so that ultimately the place would look even mre magnificient.

    The first rung might not look all that great, the ladder will prove when it takes us to a height.

    Lets get together and decide that the iner sanctum shud remain the same with the old stones etc..while a secondary persepoliis cud be built where the Iranshah glows boldly.

  11. Geve

    I respect the views and opinions of all the persons who have taken their good time to give this matter a thought. How can I contrive to explain this issue to persons who seem to have no clue what heritage means. Firstly, no one disputes that sums were spent at Udvada and we are grateful to whoever have borne these expenses. I would like to urge those who have not done so, to visit some great religious centers, like the Vatican, to see for themselves how money is wisely spent, in millions of dollars, to maintain the whole site in its original form, pristine, stately, and dignified. One need not go far, for that matter, the Cusrow Baug Agiary and the new Godrej baug Agiary at Napean Sea road have created Persian motifs as accurately as is possible. The Persian Bull/Oxen Gopatshah and the gate gaurds are grossly inaccurate and of very poor workmanship….it is an affront on our holiest site, and insult to our intelligence. Great effort should have been put in, to ensure the Gopatshah and the gate Persian guards were crafted on Persian inspiration to befit the stately structure that the Wadia makaan is. THIS IS LIKE THE VATICAN PAPAL AUTHORITIES ALLOWING A “PLASTIC,” OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC MATERIAL, STATUE OF A GREAT SAINT IN VATICAN SQUARE; OR THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT ALLOWING A STATUE OF THE QUEEN IN PLASTIC IN FRONT OF BUCKINGHAM PALACE. MY ARGUMENTS WILL BE LOST ON PERSONS WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH ART, HERITAGE, DIGNITY AND BEAUTY OF HISTORICAL AND RELIGIOUS BUILDINGS. IF THIS IS NOT UNDERSTOOD, THAN THE NEXT TIME PLEASE SUPPORT SPONSORS WHO DECIDE TO PUT UP STATUES, IN THE SAME SYNTHETIC MATERIALS, IN SOME GOLD BROWN COLOUR, OF kING DARIUS SEATED ON A THRONE, HIS BEARD, LIKE ONE ON THE GOPATSHAHA, LOOKING MORE LIKE A WIG STUCK ON THE CHIN, AND HIS FACE MORE LIKE A 18TH CENTURY PARSI PROFILE, NOT PERSIAN, AS THE FACE PROFILE OF THE GOPATSHAHS!

  12. Siddhartha Joshi

    This does look like an absolute waste of money, why spend on such superficial structures. These figurines are meant to convey something and have religious significance, its best not to play around with people’s sentiments…

  13. Geve

    Thank you, Sam; I have submitted further clarification and details. Would those please be shown here also….this is becoming a frustrating lone crusade…..I am horribly shocked there is no response to this serious and reversible issue.

  14. manek tadiwala

    dear zeeba.
    i am resident of udwada and would like to bring the finer points to publication you have made. the amount used by the trustes is abserloutely their own money and they have not used anybody elses money but their own. i do not see why such a stupid contrevarsy is being created which has no sense or meaning.

  15. Delnavaz

    Hi
    I agree with Geve. the Iranshah Atashbehram is our holiest site. It does not require any ornamentation. It is important to maintain the structure well & ensure cleanliness. Frequent renovation is a waste of time & money. Most important we Parsis cannot pray in the ‘Makaan’ because it is frequently closed for renovation. If the Udvada trust has extra funds, why not donate the same to other Fire Temples who are in need of funds.
    thanks

  16. phiroz

    I fully agree with Geve.The holy place mst look clean, elegant and suitable for elderly Zoroastrians.
    The ‘symbols’ referred to by Geve, make the holy premises like a decorated stage and are in BAD taste.
    Trust that considering the aging profile of Zoroastrian pilgrims visting this sacred Fire temple, sone seating arrangements are made oppsite the Holy Fire, so that devotees can sit and offer prayers. Please do not expect an aging community to squat on the floor.

  17. Geve

    I submitted a comment earlier on the following lines:
    There is no controversy in that, my only interest is, any decorative additions should enhance the dignity and sancity of this holiest Zoroastrian place of worship. How is it inaccurate? All Persian bas reliefs of guards in ancient Persia were always potrayed in side profile, Achaemenid or Sassanian, never frontal as the two guards depicted on the new entrance gates; frontal profile is an Indian temple art form, as can be seen on many Hindu temple entrances. The Godrej Baug Agiary shows these correctly in good art. The two Oxen/bulls’ depiction is best seen at the Persepolis Gate of All Nations. They are depicted supporting the gate columns/arch(arch has dissapeared with time’s ravages) which symbolises the Zoroastrian belief of Geush Urvan as sacred divine oxen/bulls supporting the earth. The Cusrow Baug agiary has depicted these correctly as there also they seem to support the entrance. At Udvada they are shown free standing, the face seems correct but the body is too lean for an oxen, and generally many have opined already it seems to give a film set impression. Should we have done this to Udvada? Please visit my website and view pictures of some examples of recent works of other faiths.

  18. danish

    Mr. Malcum,
    Pl inform if “repais” were at all required.
    Secondly, can this be called “repair’. It amounts to RENOVATION.
    As for Manek,
    Please note that just because one resides in Udwada,his/her opinion can not be termed as authentic or final.Udwada prospers because of devotees from Mumbai & Gujarat, not because of a handful persons residing there.
    By the way, Manek, any Trust is a Public Trust and Trustees are custodians of Public funds placed in the Boxes. How it becomes their’own’ money?

  19. phiroz

    Issue here is not as to whose money is being spent.It is total bad taste with regard to such decorations. If some body disfigues a wall of a building by sticking a poster or painting, it can well be said that cost of poster/ paint was from the funds of the person who disfigured it and so the owner of the property should not complain. Your argument is as specious as that.
    By the way, it is Trust Funds that are spent and Trustees do not spent out of their own pockets.

  20. MALCUM BASTAWALA

    Hi Guys,

    We should appreciate the repairs done to Paak Iranshah at Udwada, rather than creating a hue and cry and u wasting your time,energy and money in giving photo’s and all nonsense on your website.

  21. Geve

    I respect the views and opinions of all the persons who have taken their good time to give this matter a thought. How can I contrive to explain this issue to persons who seem to have no clue what heritage means. Firstly, no one disputes that sums were spent at Udvada and we are grateful to whoever have borne these expenses. I would like to urge those who have not done so, to visit some great religious centers, like the Vatican, to see for themselves how money is wisely spent, in millions of dollars, to maintain the whole site in its original form, pristine, stately, and dignified. One need not go far, for that matter, the Cusrow Baug Agiary and the new Godrej baug Agiary at Napean Sea road have created Persian motifs as accurately as is possible. The Persian Bull/Oxen Gopatshah and the gate gaurds are grossly inaccurate and of very poor workmanship….it is an affront on our holiest site, and insult to our intelligence. Great effort should have been put in, to ensure the Gopatshah and the gate Persian guards were crafted on Persian inspiration to befit the stately structure that the Wadia makaan is. THIS IS LIKE THE VATICAN PAPAL AUTHORITIES ALLOWING A “PLASTIC,” OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC MATERIAL, STATUE OF A GREAT SAINT IN VATICAN SQUARE; OR THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT ALLOWING A STATUE OF THE QUEEN IN PLASTIC IN FRONT OF BUCKINGHAM PALACE. MY ARGUMENTS WILL BE LOST ON PERSONS WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH ART, HERITAGE, DIGNITY AND BEAUTY OF HISTORICAL AND RELIGIOUS BUILDINGS. IF THIS IS NOT UNDERSTOOD, THAN THE NEXT TIME PLEASE SUPPORT SPONSORS WHO DECIDE TO PUT UP STATUES, IN THE SAME SYNTHETIC MATERIALS, IN SOME GOLD BROWN COLOUR, OF kING DARIUS SEATED ON A THRONE, HIS BEARD, LIKE ONE ON THE GOPATSHAHA, LOOKING MORE LIKE A WIG STUCK ON THE CHIN, AND HIS FACE MORE LIKE A 18TH CENTURY PARSI PROFILE, NOT PERSIAN, AS THE FACE PROFILE OF THE GOPATSHAHS!

  22. Siddhartha Joshi

    This does look like an absolute waste of money, why spend on such superficial structures. These figurines are meant to convey something and have religious significance, its best not to play around with people’s sentiments…