Prayers Offered at ancient Azargoshasb Fire Temple

From Amordad News.

 azargoshasb

The sound of Avesta, on 27 Shahrivar (18 September) once again filled Azargoshasb Fire Temple.

In Azargoshasb Fire Temple Zoroastrians recited the Avesta and prayed for a strong unity and cooperation of Zoroastrians of the world.  It is 6 years that this ceremony is being organized, annually, by Yatha Ahu site.  Azargoshasb is one of the largest and most renowned fire temples of the Iranian plateau, situated in West Azarbaijan, 49 km on the northeast of the city of Takab.  The history of this structure goes back to over 3000 years.  Azargoshasb is located near the Urumieh Lake (Chichest Lake) and was surrounded by magnificent buildings in those days.

Amordad camera also went to the Fire Temple to once again display the get-together of Zoroastrians in this ancient holy site.

Continue reading at Amordad News.

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    As heartening as it is to read such news items about our ancient faith, there is also a touch of hypocricy involved. The article expresses a noble intention of creating “strong unity and cooperation among Zoroastrians of the world”. But do we Parsis practice what we preach? Why do our agiaris have signs declaring that entry is restricted to PARSI Zoroastrians only. Why only Parsi Zoroastrians? Are the Zoroastrians in Iran somehow inferior to us that they do not deserve to enter the hallowed portals? Last year, I took a Zoroastrian friend from Iran – who has made an exhaustive study of the Gathas – to the doongerwadi. It was a struggle to gain her entry, mainly because she did not look like a Parsi. Isn’t this nothing but elitism?

  • The sign boards on the Fire temples are so absurdly worded that it would imply that a a person born to Parsee parents but baptized CAN enter the Fire temple.And among the Parsees there is no dearth of persons having embraced Christianity or Judaism.

  • Delnavaz

    Lovely article. thanks for sharing this news.

  • rustom jamasji

    Piloo and Hirjikaka…
    Wudnt it be less hypocratical to sort of make your own instead of maligning the wishes of donors and makers of Fire temples.

    I wonder when the guys who dismiss the sentiments of the givers/donors/makers will ever be strong enough in themselves to make their own instead of deriding those who have selflessly given and those who do not mind adhering to such’s sentiments.

    In contrast to efforts that malign those who gave back, just look at the efforts of those whose wishes are maligned. The saviours of zoroastrianism known as ‘Parsis’ in India not only preserved but for a 1000 years after taking refuge gave back monies and foundations of the faith so that it can be used and the practises followed.

    They also realised the notions od demographic change.

    In any case Hirjikakas statement goes contra to history.He tries and portrays that Indian Zoroastrians feel superior to Iranian Zoroastrians. The efforts of Hataria, Marker and others towards our Iranian brethern showcases the affection towards them. The Kadmi calender and its formation sowcases the importance bestowed upon Iranian Zoroastrians and so does the Persian Riyayats.

    In any case most agiries in India have the term Parsi/Irani Zoroastrians.As in India we and r faith is denoted by the term ‘Parsi’.The chinese had a term for Zoroastrians seeking shelter in china. Such terms were given to denote the original Persians and their faith i.e Zoroastrianis , segmenting us from those claiming to be persians yet thriving to extingusih the Persian faith and convert it Zoroastrian homelands to the faith of the byzantines and then that to the faith of the arabs.(Missoneries of christianity n islam were spreading across both Indian n Chineese lands once Persia was broken n converted..n both these claimed to be Persians..as done now..sadly the burkha is showcassed as Persianism since a billion so caled Persians enforce it, though ther real persians i.e zoroastrians fought against such and zoro ladies even at the cost of their lives showed their ankles and wrists to frustrate the converter)

    The term Parsi/Irani may even be a blessing in disguise as now there are those who have been caught smugling and smoking marajuana claiming it is a zoroastrian must and a zoroastrian practise(legal case in the U.S)!!! Then there are those who think dancing naked in front of fruits is zoroastrianism ritual…. and then ofcourse we have those who actually nullify the efforts of the makers of the agiaries in India..such preserved the avesta and the various niyas’s and the various rituals and practises, whilst the gatha alone cult rubbishes all such!!!

    As far as those zoroastrians who have embraced christianity or any other faith, they cease to be following the faith of the Parsis i.e zoroastrianism and so why wud they wana come to an agiary or follow its philosophy in the first place.

    In anycase the article should remind everyone including all those who want to change zarathustra’s teachings into their personal tastes that preserving zoroastrianism would enable it to be passed on to other generations and thus next generations surviving as Zoroastriansim instead of thining arbitary change is a must and arbitaraly good!

  • I have no where suggested even remotely of any CHANGE a word that RJ dreads. What I have pointed out is the lacuna in the Boards displayed outside Fire Temples, which should read AMISSION FOR PARSI ZOROASTRIANS ONLY.
    As regards”As far as those zoroastrians who have embraced christianity or any other faith, they cease to be following the faith of the Parsis i.e zoroastrianism and so why wud they wana come to an agiary or follow its philosophy in the first place.”, this remark displays lack of awareness of reality. What if a Parsee converted to Christianity comes to attend a Uthamna or any other ceremony of a Parsee Zoroastrian,being conducted in a Fire Temple.???. Just ponder before rushing to air your set ideas.

  • WERE THE WISHES OF THE DONORS NOT
    VIOLATED WHEN UTHAMNA OF LATE JRD TATA(MAY HIS SOUL RIP)WAS PERFORMED AT DOONGARWADI BY THE VERY SAME PRIESTS WHO LABEL OTHERS AS RENEGADES. WHO IS HYPOCRITICAL YOU MR. JAMASJI AND A HANDFUL OF THOSE WHO THINK LIKE YOU OR OTHERS WHO DEMAND EQUAL TREATMENT FOR BORN ZOROASTRIANS PRACTICING THE FAITH.
    IT IS YOUR HABIT TO TWIST THE ISSUES TO PROPAGATE YOUR BIGOTED AGENDA EXPECTING OTHERS TO FORGET HISTORICAL BLUNDERS COMMITTED BY YOUR ‘HIGH PRIESTS’ IF YOU HAVE HONESTY OF PURPOSE, CRITICIZE SUCH ‘EXCEPTIONS’ ELSE THE HAT OF BEING A HYPOCRITE FITS YOU.

  • Truth is bitter and those who pose as “Orthodox’ find it all the more indigestible. They, therefore indulge in suppression of facts. When Rustom questions why any Parsi who has renounced Zoroastrian Religion would enter a Fire Temple, he needs to refresh his memory of what happened in a Dadar Fire Temple a few years back when a Parsi lady who had embraced Judaism was found attending this fire temple.. accompanied by a BPP Trustee who claims to be TRADITIONAL.
    It is this duplicity and double standards of self styled ORTHODOX that is most shameful.

  • rustom jamasji

    @Piloo….and why should the board read ‘admission to Parsi zoroastrians only?..the agiaries are meant for Zoroastrians, be they from India, Pakistan Iran, Canada or any part of the world.

    Yes in case any cotorie then thinks it right to manuplate such into any Hindu/ muslim/ christian etc converting into zoroastrianism, then it does malign the sentiments of the makers.It then would give acess to those who claim zoroastrianism is about marajuana smoking and/or dancing naked in front of fruits or those cults that claim that the savious of zoroastrianism were fools and unnsecasaraly saved the khordeh avesta or the various niyas’s or the practises(the gatha alone cult)..
    As far as a zoroastrian who has converted out to another fold, he arbitaraly overrides the principles of zoroastrianism with the new adapted faith , and thus it wud be his/her responsibility to avoid hurting sentiments of the zoroastrian faith and should thus exercise restraint in entering places of zoroastrian worship or/ and also stop taking advantage f being one i.e staying in flats donated for zoroastrians/ taking advantage of many educational funds and other advantages and should then proceed to garner support from institutions of the faith s/he has followed.

    Dhongi…ure justification of stoping the dokhmenisini system to everything you do not like or are ignorant about starts and ends with loopholes and negativity of circumstance etc mainly the wadia navjote….its time you move on…

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    Rustom,
    It seems I have to beg your pardon. I was not aware that the donors and makers of Fire temples confided their wishes to you. I may also mention that during the major portion of my 65 years on this earth, I don’t recall any major controversy among Parsis. In accordance with the tolerance preached by Zarathustra, there was a spirit of live and let live among the entire community. It is only in the past decade that the self-styled defenders of the faith have sprung up; proclaiming a zeal to protect a religion that needs no protection. They seem to have borrowed a page from George Bush’s manual: you are either with them, or against them. There is no middle ground.

    You mention that the Arabs who conquered Persia in the 7th Century displayed extraordinary zeal to convert the original inhabitants to Islam. Since you are found of quoting history, let me lay some historical facts before you. The main purpose of the Arab conquest was plunder – which makes sense since they came from a desperately poor land. One way of achiving that was to levy the “jaziya” tax on the conquered people. However, Islam did not permit fellow Muslims to be taxed – only the “kafirs”. Hence it made no economic sense to them to forcibly convert the local population en masse. On the contrary, many of the wealthier Persians converted voluntarily to Islam to avoid paying the jaziya. Also, the Arabs needed slaves to service their new empire and, once again, Islam allowed only kafirs to be enslaved.

  • farzana

    Rustom J said- “As far as those zoroastrians who have embraced christianity or any other faith, they cease to be following the faith of the Parsis i.e zoroastrianism and so why wud they wana come to an agiary or follow its philosophy in the first place.

    In anycase the article should remind everyone including all those who want to change zarathustra’s teachings into their personal tastes that preserving zoroastrianism would enable it to be passed on to other generations and thus next generations surviving as Zoroastriansim instead of thining arbitary change is a must and arbitaraly good!”

    IM QUITE SURE RUSTOM, YOU HAVE JUMPED TO DEFEND THE ARTICLE ABOVE WITHOUT READING IT… IT CLEARLY STATES – LARGE CROWD COMPRISING OF NON-ZOROASTRIANS AND ZOROASTRIANS IN IRAN PARTICIPATE FOR THE ANNUAL GAHANBAR CEREMONY IN AZARGOSHASB…AND I BELEIVE THIS RITUAL HAS BEEN ON AT THIS PARTICULAR PLACE FOR AGES NOW.

    im quoting this from the above article for your reference-

    quote-:”Gahanbar ceremony in Azargoshasb Fire Temple – A huge crowd of Zoroastrians and NON-ZOROASTRIANS had participated in the ceremony, which is held only once a year and attracts many eager people from all over Iran, to this world heritage in Takhte Sulieman area in Takab.”
    ———————————

    SO NOW THE QUESTION TO YOU – WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CHANGING ZARATHUSTRA’S TEACHING FOR THEIR PERSONAL INTEREST- PARSIS LIKE YOU IN INDIA OR IRANIAN ZARATHUSTIS?

    AND YOUR LAWARA ABOUT PARSIS NEED TO KEEP THEIR CLUB EXCLUSIVE FOR PARSEES FOR THE SURVIVAL OF Z-ISM IS PURE TRASH.

    HOW MANY FROM THE YOUNG GENERATION EVEN BOTHER TO WEAR KUSTI OR SADRA [I DONT] AND HOW MANY OF THOSE WHO WEAR THESE SYMBOLS KNOW WHY THEY ARE WEARING IT OR MEANING OF WHAT THEY PRAY??…IM SURE EVEN MOBEDS ARENT TOO SURE OF WHAT THEY ARE PRAYING EITHER!!

    BELEIVE ME, RUSTOM, ZOROASTRIANISM IN INDIA HAD DIED LONG AGO…NEXT TIME YOU SPEAK, SPEAK FOR PARSISM… BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU REPRESENT.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    I have NO WHERE mentioned ANYTHING about Wadia Navjotes in my post of 20th inst. Mr R J is afraid of dealing with such ticklish issues and as such they seem to haunt him.
    In any case if he does not have logical reply about JRD’s Uthamna, he should admit the same rather then criticising me by calling me ignorant. Please read the meaning of word ignorant in Websters Dictionary. It is his inability to be bold enough to face inconvenient facts that RJ wants me to ‘move on’. He proves his shortcomings/ inability to DISPROVE FACTS.
    Historical incidents of last century are not exclusive preserve of RJ. Why does he want to evade a honest reply? Motives appear to be to misguide youngsters.Sorry, I will never permit fake Orthodox like RJ to evade issues.I have decided to expose those fond of DOUBLE STANDARDS. That’s a promise.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    Dear Hirjikaka and Nasha,
    Rustom Jamas can surpass even Goebbels in his practice of “Supressio Veri and Suggestio Falsi. Such is his zeal and devotion to his “sacred cause” of distorting facts.

  • Yes Jamasji, I fully agree with you when you say that ” agiaries are meant for Zoroastrians, be they from India, Pakistan Iran, Canada or any part of the world.” If you have visited any Fire Temple in Mumbai, you will find that it is the Notice Board which states “ADMISSION FOR PARSIS ONLY” This is a lacuna,because a Parsi may not necessarily be a practicing Zoroastrian. I have been pointing out this fact but you have missed the point and talk about not observing wishes of the Donors.Please read carefully before condemning others genuinely Traditionalists and using uncharitable adjectives.

  • Siloo Kapadia

    And while we are on the topic of PRIESTS, why not allow women to become priests as well? Is there any real reason for us to still disallow women as priests?

  • Siloo Kapadia

    We Parsis are, for the most part, racially, ethnically, linguistically, and religiously different (NOT superior) from the Zoroastrians in other parts of the world. We are also a dying breed in the Asian/Indians subcontinent.

    Why not try to integrate with the others for the common good? As it is PARSI will soon be aa word for a “dead” group of people.

  • rustom jamasji

    @ Nazha..
    So if a person converted out from n zoroastrianism enters the fire temples with anybody , wud that make it right? if not, why use it as an excuse? as i said zoroastrians who have converted to another faith also try and take advantage of property and also discourse their new faith to other zoroastrians whilst iving in colonies meant for people follwoing zoroastrian faith….

    @ Farzana…should your personal feeling for not wearing the sudreh n kusti act as an example for everyone not wearing it? Also on ure question who is chaning Zoroastrianism.Well ure own EXAMPLE n people like who shun the sudreh n kusti in a way change the custom and also miss passing on to the next generation the importance and the reasons for such. This leads to forgeting many other whys and hows and thus arriving at armchair philosophies such as thinking ther were notools in Persia and thus dokhmenishini was promoted. Also i find your blaming others of not knowing what symbols they are wearing and prayers, to your own deed of not wearing the sudreh n kusti yet on a different topic proclaiming that u do visit dargah, temples etc.. so actually again its zoroastrians that practise all other, fuse our faith in the large ones, nullify the avesta yet proclaim the gita, the koran, the baba , the bible… yet justify their ignrance and their non adherence to everyone elses not doing so….And then trying to find faults with those who try and cling on to zoroastrianism the way the saviours of zoroastriansm left it.

    As far as non zoroastrians entering fire temples in Iran,it is a islamic republic and even the shahs wife wanted to visit one and a glass was installed from which she was allowed to see the concecrated fire..

    As far as zoroastrianism dying out in India..you are free to your view but then if it is weakening isnt it for acts like the ones of forgetiing the resons for wearing the sudreh n kusti, neglecting the whys n hows, finding loopholes in changing zoroastrianism to suit various issues mainly intermarriage, the ones that debunk the avesta(gatha alone cult), then the ones who want to adapt a snake goddess or their personal baba’s teaching, some want to incoprporate idol worship etc etc..yet fuly adhering to practises contra to z’ism ike idol worshiop etc…

    Thus as people claiming to be zoroastrians doing practises opposite to what zarathushtra preached..one does try and imply a wrong message of zoroastrianism…n it is appaling when such people then take recourse in such when many want to preserve zoroastrianism

    Hirjikaka.
    your point of freedom to live and let live in zoroastrianism is very well manuplated to’ Freedom to change Zoroastrianism’..to suit individuals..

    Whilst Zarathushtra freedom of choice was indeed for one to choose to follow it or not, one can see the desperation to see it as freedom to ‘change zoroastrianism’…and in any case your point then implies that Zoroastrianism can be changed yet remain Zoroastrianism??!!!…. .wow that would make idol woship..defiling fire by corpse though specifically mentioned against in zoroastrian texts as a thing to do…
    So again a sweeteness of zoroastrianism giving a choice either to follow it or not is made into a weakeness..to demand a change in it..

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    Rustom,
    You wrote “As far as those zoroastrians who have embraced christianity or any other faith, they cease to be following the faith of the Parsis i.e zoroastrianism and so why wud they wana come to an agiary or follow its philosophy in the first place.”
    Fair enough, but what about the thousands of Parsis who religiously go to the agiari, but at the same time, offer novenas to the Virgin Mary at Mahim church and/or wear Sai Baba’s ring and regularly visit his shrine at Shirdi? Would you also debar these fence-sitters? Our agiaris would soon wear a forlorn appearence.

  • farzana

    Rustom==>”Yes in case any cotorie then thinks it right to manuplate such into any Hindu/ muslim/ christian etc converting into zoroastrianism, then it does malign the sentiments of the makers”
    ———————————–

    rustom…hypothetically speaking if Zoroastrianism is opened for conversion in India, according to you, how many muslims, hindus, christian would be interested in converting themselves to it? and why?

    secondly, if you open gates of agiary to non zoros how many nonzoros would want to enter it?
    i meant the second time, after the curiosity dies.

    i still don’t get …what exactly are ‘saviours’like you trying to save from the world ?…

  • Typical of an individual handicapped by shortage of convincing reply. Jamasji wants Anti Dhongi to ‘grow up’ (whatever that means) whereas Jamasji himself needs to broaden his horizons and face facts as they are instead of shunning them. Both Nasha and Ant- Dhongi have posed uncomfortable facts to Jamasji who is incapable by facts of history to encounter them.
    Now my question to Jamasji who talks of observance of Trust Deeds of donors. Please enlighten readers about the Trust Deeds as to Trust deed of which Agiary provides that first 3 days prayers will be offered for those Parsi Zoros who passed away abroad and whose corpses were buried or cremated BUT if a Parsi Zoro passes away in Mumbai the same can NOT be performed if the corpse has not been dumped in Towers?
    If you Jamasji have no reply backed by law please excuse the Readerd from your monotonous irrelevant sermon.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    have NO WHERE mentioned ANYTHING about Wadia Navjotes in my post of 20th inst. Mr R J is afraid of dealing with such ticklish issues and as such they seem to haunt him.
    In any case if he does not have logical reply about JRD’s Uthamna, he should admit the same rather then criticising me by calling me ignorant. Please read the meaning of word ignorant in Websters Dictionary. It is his inability to be bold enough to face inconvenient facts that RJ wants me to ‘move on’. He proves his shortcomings/ inability to DISPROVE FACTS.
    Historical incidents of last century are not exclusive preserve of RJ. Why does he want to evade a honest reply? Motives appear to be to misguide youngsters.Sorry, I will never permit fake Orthodox like RJ to evade issues.I have decided to expose those fond of DOUBLE STANDARDS. That’s a promise.

  • Religious but Rational.

    The cause of genuine orthodoxy has been damaged not by disorganised “Reformists” but by self -appointed,Organised fruitcake’saviours’ who blabber nonsense like Darwin being wrong and that Muktad ceremony being “originally” of 10 days duration in utter disregard of prevelent custom in Iransha.Why not be candid and admit past lapses of priestly class and begin a new chapter in consonance with traditions. ADMISSION OF MISTAKE IS A SIGN OF GREATNESS AND VIRTUIOUSITY.

  • farzana

    Rustom, get real…just visit any langan or navjote in the coming season and check yourself how many parsi women- young and old wear sadras under their off shoulder -halterneck saree blouses.

    And if you have time, ask youngsters you see with sadra-kusti…why they wear it…You’ll get your answer…

  • Anti – Dhongidox.

    Farzana,
    To the best of my knowledge,Sudreh is a garment worn for guidance to remain on Right Path but to our nouveu Orthodox, Sudheh Kusti serves the purpose of an Identity Card to enter Holy places.How else will you find uncouth,illiterate Chasniwalas(Lalias)in Fire Temples wearing soiled Suderh particularly during Muktad days.
    Religious But Rational: Read your post. EGO is the root cause of all conflicts and to expect arrogant “High” priest to concede their lapses as you call them, would be expecting too much. Besides what factors other than material gains led them to make ‘exceptions’in recent past?

  • Behram Dhabhar

    I too have noticed that most Parsi women who dress up for Navjotes / Lagans do not wear Sudreh – kusti, even the mother whose child is undergoing the Navjote. What does this show ? Fashion is more important than religion.

    Which is the reason why we as a community are down in the dumps ! This is nothing to be proud of, these women should be ashamed and this act should be condemned. Just because many are moving around without their sacred Alaat does not mean it is the right thing to do. Is akin to saying that there are so many murders and rapes being commited, so its the right thing to do.

    On the positive side I was reading up on a discussion on the Zpeakerbox site which is dedicated to the youngsters of our community and most of its members are from outside India. It was heartening to note that all of them realized the importance of wearing full time their sudreh kusti and though some stated that under rare circumstances they do flout the rules, they sure do feel guilty. Some of them are even anxious to know the whys of wearing it full time.

    Religious but Rational :
    Muktad ceremony should necessarily be of 18 days only, a practice which had been followed everywhere and is being done in Bombay too in atleast 3 fire temples that I know of. It was discontinued, after some scholar priests misinterpreted a karda from the Fravadin Yasht to state that “Dasa Pairi Khashafan” means 10 days.

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    Perhaps the virtuous Rustom closes his eyes when he witnesses such debauchery :). It would be an assault on his high morals 🙂

  • rustom jamasji

    @Firoz Hirjikaka
    I agree with you on the fact that many zoroastrians practise rituals contra to Zarathushtrian Philosophy..yet that differs from one openly converting out.

    In any case those who practise rituals contra to zoroastrian philosophy or like FARZANA shows that many zoroastrian celebrations are devoid of the basic sudreh n kusti etc may
    1)arise from ignorance of the whys and hows of the faith.

    2) from inculcation by parent’s practise of avoiding such or themselves neglected studying the faith and thus unable to answer to the importance of rituals..

    3) It also points out to demographic pressures i.e excess of other population n thus celebrations /practises in contrast to zoroastrians and thus always exposure to other celebrations.

    4) specially when our own thru ignore of our faith and personal agendas nullify and demean whatever is not personally liked. Whilst many put the other baba/faiths philosophy on a pedestial always deridng the priest , the fire temple etc also has an effect

    5)Armchair philosophies creeping up and whn debunked then protecting ones ego and thus factions within the community. Then forming organisations that would put personal agendas before survival of zoroastrianism..and now the arbitary change deemd arbitaraly good.

    Importance showered upon those who debunk the deeds of the saviours of zoroastrianism..like the gatha alone cult…those who want to end the rituals/practise and the avesta thinking they have cracked the case and promoting the saviours of zoroastrianism were fools , those who want to change zoroastrianism to suit their intermaried spouces/ or prefererd babas/devis/idols want zoroastrianism to incorporate within their tastes making it into a workshop..that zism HAS TO CHANGE in any possible way TO MEET PERSONAL TASTES is deemd a birthright.. ironically then still claiming it to be zoroastrianism..

    As far as to convert or not…its not the primary issue(for me)…if one wants to convert others into zoroastrianism atleast do it on the lines that the saviours of zoroastrianism preserved it…not on the lines of smoking marajuana claiming it to be a zoroastrian practise, and dancing naked in front of fruits..claiming it to be a zoroastrianism….or debunking the fundamentals like dokhmenishini…(here one can aid strenghtening it instead of claiming it not being zoroastrian)Also lets not shelter in youngsters/elders etc not wearing the sudreh n kusti etc and thus promoting such cults…If someone does not like dokhmenishini, let it not be derided as not being zoroastrianism…..
    Now look at rational but religious…he was ignorant of the historical fact that muktaads came to 18 days during the sasanian period to get back the calender, he thought there were no tools to dig in Persia n thus dokhmenishini was preahed, he thought coton was not present during zarathushtra’s time..yet when historicaly pointed otherwise, and armchair philosophies goes for a toss, then theres unnecessarly controversy for everything begins and protecting ones ego commences..

    Frazana why not you urself start by wearing the sudreh n kusti…and that wud be one more peson wearing it instead of one less and you could also set an example…

    Phiroz, nasha’s point uncomfortable to me nor do facts showcasing weakening of zoroastrian systems make me uncomfortable too…cause in acknowledging it one can rectify or strenghten it…whats saddening is that you, dhongi etc always take advantage of something weakening/gone wrong to push in your agenda..if a priest sneezes, you wud ask where in the book its emntioned he shud sneeze/ if some one did somethign wrong, you ask why shudnt another wrong be comited..and thats not uncomfortable but demening to any sort of progress….as far as those dying abroad and their prayers performed..well that a circumstance..

    many places abroad would not have permission for an agiary since it can be termed a fire hazard….hope you wudnt cite such an example for demanding closure of agiaries in India– Pak..
    dhongidox, no im not afraid of such issus like wadias navjote…but actually when you urself quote that on most instances, it actually lessens its importance…as far as reply to such, hey i havent commited what u alledge,…so i leave it to the ones who are answerable for their deeds…in any case dhongi you are known to first critisise and then ask for proofs of books, when pointerd in that direction then again u find something missing..

    @ R but R..
    u talk of Darwins theology of change..
    well what do u want to change to?and in what way would darwins change apply to preserving Zoroastrianism…?Would you want Zoroasthtra’s talk of non idol worship to change or that death sickness, pain etc which are all part of God in other faiths but work of evil in Zoroastrianosm to change due to Darwin….
    Would you show sympathy to darwin and thus change archimedes principle whilst building a ship? or change newtons law or that of conductivity and pour water on smeone being electrocuted just because change is a must? Would you think that humans can sustain life without oxygen in air or 100% oxygen over exceeding 2.8 B.A.? since darwins stated evolution..
    Well the byzantines and the arabs also wanted us to change and would have cited Darwin’s law…..

    Whilst the fact of muktaad days and sasanian zoroastrioan history , feel free to deride such too…yet history wont change though you cite Darwins theology…

    at farzana..
    some youths have organised a humbandgi at bikha behram well on the 27th of october..avaa roj…showasing that not all youth are ignorant and want to give up on their faith…perhaps when such such examples are cited they in themself set an example..lets seeo how many elders attend it and send their children …

  • rustom jamasji

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?filter=app_2361831622#/group.php?gid=171252239312&ref=nf

    SOME YOUTHS taking actions for preserving and continuation of zoroastrian practise and theology

  • People attempt to rewrite history. They beieve that a falsehood repeated 20 times will assume credibility. And dishonest intellectuals a la Hitler believe that public memory is short.By practicing Supressio Veri and Suggestio Falsi such history rewriters believe that they can achieve their ends of hoodwinking masses and throwing dust in the eyes of gullible youngsters.

  • farzana

    Behram==>”Fashion is more important than religion”

    fyi, yes it is…each person is entiled to have their own priorities based on their interests and profession, understood ervad behram ?

  • Mr. Jamasji,
    In my post I had requested you not to deliver another monotonous irrelevant sermon yet you have not given up your habit.If you are helpless in replying point to point then what purpose does your posts serve?. The question of my earlier post was “Please enlighten readers about the Trust Deeds as to Trust deed of which Agiary provides that first 3 days prayers will be offered for those Parsi Zoros who passed away abroad and whose corpses were buried or cremated BUT if a Parsi Zoro passes away in Mumbai the same can NOT be performed if the corpse has not been dumped in Towers?”
    Instead of replying on the issue of Trust Deeds, you falsely allege that I might demand closure of Fire Temples.
    Your policy seems to be that when you can not counter an issue with logic or reasoning, you will make wild allegations and try to create an impression that ALL others are anti Zoroastrians just because they do not subscribe to your distorted version of our Religion.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Farzana –> fyi, yes it is…each person is entiled to have their own priorities based on their interests and profession.

    Since you have stooped so low in admitting this, you have no Parsipanu left in you and have ceased to even be a zoroastrian. I wonder what you are doing on the Parsikhabar site.

  • farzana

    Rustom==>”Frazana why not you urself start by wearing the sudreh n kusti…and that wud be one more peson wearing it instead of one less and you could also set an example…”
    ————————

    No thank you. I dont believe in wearing any symbolism … Im Zoroastrian by deeds… and that counts for me…
    Besides in an addition vest comes in the way i dress…I have my priorities and they are not in the same order as yours.

    The reason i brought this up is to show you that your lectures on keeping Zoroastrian club exclusively for Parsees will save the religion is practically humbug…
    Think out of the box if you really want the Zoroastrianism to survive…
    Asking Parsees wearing an extra vest is not going to save it.

    Hint… remember darwin’s words.

    —————-

    Rustom==>at farzana..
    some youths have organised a humbandgi at bikha behram well on the 27th of october..avaa roj…showasing that not all youth are ignorant and want to give up on their faith…perhaps when such such examples are cited they in themself set an example..lets seeo how many elders attend it and send their children …
    ——————————–

    Some youths?? what percentage of the community did they comprised?
    Did they know the meaning of the prayers they were chanting? doubtful…
    I rest my case.

  • farzana

    Rustom==> @ R but R..
    u talk of Darwins theology of change..
    well what do u want to change to?and in what way would darwins change apply to preserving Zoroastrianism…?Would you want Zoroasthtra’s talk of non idol worship to change or that death sickness, pain etc which are all part of God in other faiths but work of evil in Zoroastrianosm to change due to Darwin….
    Would you show sympathy to darwin and thus change archimedes principle whilst building a ship? or change newtons law or that of conductivity and pour water on smeone being electrocuted just because change is a must? Would you think that humans can sustain life without oxygen in air or 100% oxygen over exceeding 2.8 B.A.? since darwins stated evolution..
    Well the byzantines and the arabs also wanted us to change and would have cited Darwin’s law…..

    ———————————–

    Rustom, change is inevitable in every aspect of one’s life. What brings about this change?- its new circumstances/challenges and we have to adapt to them to survive. This is plain simple logic explained by Darwin. Do you disagree with this?

    Do you disagree that Zoroastrianism has been altered zillion times since Zarathustra first spoke Gathas?

    Why was the religion amended so many times?
    Because it was faced with new challenges…

    Today the challenges are different…
    Zoroastrian theocracy is dead and gone forever … You’re living in a democracy… where if you dont have the numbers, you are a doormat…
    If people like you refuse to adapt, whatever remains of community..is doomed.
    In Rabbi Hillel’s words- “He who refuses to learn deserves extinction”

    ———————————–

    Rustom==>”Well the byzantines and the arabs also wanted us to change and would have cited Darwin’s law…..
    —————————

    Do you seriously dont know history or are you deliberately distorting the facts?

  • farzana

    Anti-Dhongidox==> “People attempt to rewrite history. They beieve that a falsehood repeated 20 times will assume credibility. And dishonest intellectuals a la Hitler believe that public memory is short.By practicing Supressio Veri and Suggestio Falsi such history rewriters believe that they can achieve their ends of hoodwinking masses and throwing dust in the eyes of gullible youngsters.”
    ———————–

    Exactly… I agree…

    Its fed again and again by the priests that Zoroastrians migrated to Indian shores to safeguard their religion so its important that we have to put on our blinkers and do as they tell us…
    But the truth is, Sassanian Persian empire already extended uptil parts of western India… And there were Zoroastrian posts and traders already in India long before arabs invaded Iran.
    These Zoroastrian traders living in India invited other Zoroastrians [priests and traders who were sympathisers of Sassanians, and were scared of mass backlash against them] to migrate from Persia and asked for POLITICAL asylum from the king. – read QISSA E SANJAN for actual records.

    And the real reasons why Persia was lost was because of economical decline, heavy taxation on peasants, religious unrest, rebellions, rigid social stratification, the increasing power of the provincial landholders and PRIESTLY CLASS WHO WERE THE LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.

    EVEN NOW THEY HAVE NOT GIVEN UP ON DICTATING MASSES FOR THEIR SELF INTERESTS… ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THEY CALL THEMSELVES ‘SAVIOURS’

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    Rustom,

    Your reasoned arguments would be almost convincing, if they weren’t so off the mark.

    1) You are obviously implying that those who believe in Mother Mary and Sai Baba, for example, i.e.”practise rituals contra to Zarathushtrian Philosophy” are doing something bad. All religions do, or should, have the same ultimate goal. They are a means of communicating with God or Ahura Mazda, or whatever name you chose to give Him. The Zoroastrian philosophy need not be in conflict with the Christian philosophy or the Hindu philosophy, or whatever. Neither is one superior to the others. God does not take sides, so why should we presume to do so?

    2)If Farzana, or others like her, chose not to wear a sudreh and kusti every day, she does not need to justify her actions. You may automatically assume that she is doing something evil, but you can hardly claim to speak for Zoroaster. You, Behram and others of your tribe take great pride in defending our religion. However, what you are actually defending is merely the rituals and customs. True religion is a lot more than that. I, for one, am convinced that Zoroaster and Ahura Mazda would place greater value on individuals who have a clean heart and try their best to follow His teachings of good thoughts, good words and good deeds; rather than those who display all the trappings of the religion and feel they have fulfilled their religious obligation.

    3) Similarly, the “armchair philosophers” who question some of the rituals and customs are not heretics. They certainly do not want to harm the religion. Many of the rituals have been handed down from generation to generation, but that does not necessarily make them the gospel truth. Questioning them is not a sin. Why has God granted us humans the boon of free will, if we do not use it.

    In short, religion in its purest form is a communion with God. It is not about putting on an outward appearence of piety. You traditionalists have become so engrossed in the mechanics of practicing the religion, that you have lost sight of the greater goal preached by Zoroaster.

  • ….as far as those dying abroad and their prayers performed..well that a circumstance..

    many places abroad would not have permission for an agiary since it can be termed a fire hazard….hope you wudnt cite such an example for demanding closure of agiaries in India– Pak..
    THIS A QUOTABLE QUOTE “WELL THAT A CIRCUMSTANCE” Is not disappearance of vultures NOT A CIRCUMSTANCE?
    Point No 2. There is therefore nothing in Trust Deeds of various Fire Temples to discriminate offering of prayers based on place of demise. Are these NOT
    MAN MADE ‘laws’/conventions. So where is the issue of wishes of Donors being vitiated?

  • Firoze,
    There are those who will resort to stopping the movement of pendulum of a clock to say that time can be made to stand still.

  • farzana

    Behram==>”Since you have stooped so low in admitting this, you have no Parsipanu left in you and have ceased to even be a zoroastrian. I wonder what you are doing on the Parsikhabar site.”

    ———————————-

    HaaaaaHaaaaaaa!!!Behraaam you live up to your name… Anyway I don’ t need a certificate of Parsipannu from you.
    But since you are questioning my Zoroastrian ethics… I have a question for you – Why aren’t you married? Dont you know according to Zoroastrianism, marriage is a religious duty of every Zoroastrian.

    I should dust out YOUR favorite Vendidad …. (3.2): “That place is happy over which a holy man builds a house, with fire, cattle, wife, children and good followers.”

    (4.47), Dadaar Ahura Mazda states, “O spitama Zarathushtra! Indeed I thus recommend here unto thee, a man with a wife above a magava (saint), a man with a family above one without a family, a man with children above one who is without children.”

    Jo yuu…im married with children…so Dadaar Ahura Mazda prefers me !!! Next time hypocrite see that you complete your religious duties before yap another fatwa…

    And oyeee wakeyy wakeyyy …Parsi Khabar is not your Dadar Parsi colony…dont confuse the two!!

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Farzana,

    You can only twist facts for the other gullible Parsis out here. To fool someone like me, you need to take atleast 3 more births. Yaad rakhje before you open your mouth again.

    It is incumbent upon every Zarthosti to put on Sudreh and Kusti, the holy shirt and holy girdle, day and night, after he/she has gone through the Navjot ceremony, and perform the ritual of Kusti Padiab. Failure to put on Sudreh and Kusti is declared a sin. In the list of sins of omissions and commissions in the Patet Pashemani of Dastur Adarbad Mahrespand, failure to put on Sudreh and Kusti is described as a sin of Koshad-dwarashni.

    Now let me know as per the Vendidad or any other text whether not getting married is a sin. I do agree with the quote of the Vendidad and its Taavil as to why this injunction is there. Its not that I dont wish to get married, but have not done so because of circumstances. Is that a sin ?

    For you not wearing a sudreh is a matter of fashion. So whether you have one child or many does not make a difference because all of them will follow in their mother’s footsteps.

  • farzana

    Behram, every fool thinks he is very wise…i dont need to work on you…

    Who cares whether anyone wants to marry you or not…I just quoted from YOUR favorite book – Vendidad for YOU, that says its religious duty of every Zoroastrian to get married and multiply.. that doesnot mean i adhere Vendidad. Do you get the drift?

    Vendidad was written thousands of years after Zarathustra during Sassanid times…which contradicts with Zarathustra’s teachings in many places…

    Gatha which are Zarathustra’s own words does not advocate wearing a sudra and kusti …Zarathushtra does not mention rituals other than prayer. This conforms with his teaching, in which he does not give specific ways to do or not to do, but rather principles to live by. Since Zarathushtra did not specifically talk about the sadreh and the kushti, I dont consider it mandatory. But then, there should be nothing mandatory to us but Good thoughts, words and deeds.Right?

    Sudre-Kusti is an old aryan tradition with some good doctrinal meaning. Good for those who want to wear it. Like Zarathushtra says, and I am paraphrasing of course: Listen earnestly, ponder and choose by yourself ….

    So well, i use my good mind, ponder and choose by myself…Its basically between my so called creator and me…I dont need any middle man to tell me what to do…So move on Behram. T’taa.

    Btw, excommunication and issuing fatwas is not sanctioned by Zarathustra either..so you might be in a wrong religion.

  • farzana

    And oye!! btw, if you are so fond of crusading for sadra and kusti…go and do your bidding at lagan and navjotes where maximum parsi mailas come without wearing them…

    I just cited them as an example to show you that with times, changes in every aspect of human society is inevitable. Learn to accept it or get wiped out.
    Choice is yours.

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Firoze Hirjikaka wrote :

    “True religion is a lot more than that. I, for one, am convinced that Zoroaster and Ahura Mazda would place greater value on individuals who have a clean heart and try their best to follow His teachings of good thoughts, good words and good deeds; rather than those who display all the trappings of the religion and feel they have fulfilled their religious obligation.

    In short, religion in its purest form is a communion with God. It is not about putting on an outward appearence of piety. You traditionalists have become so engrossed in the mechanics of practicing the religion, that you have lost sight of the greater goal preached by Zoroaster”

    Dear Mr. Hirjikaka,

    I beg to differ with what you have stated. I am enclosing herewith an article that appeared in a well known publication for your reading pleasure. Only the relevant part is appended below. You may draw your own conclusions.

    Sincerely,
    Behram.

    Every human being has an inherent tendency to speak the truth, because of the voice of conscience in him. But, in most cases, this voice is stifled by yet another organ of the body, namely the tongue. It is rightly said that though the tongue does not have a single bone, it is instrumental in breaking many bones!

    The fact is that, of the four elements of Nature – Fire, Air, Water and Earth – the tongue’s 8th Chakra (plexus) is made of only the Earth elements. The result is that it becomes grossly material and materialism means the seat of Ahriman or his cohorts. It is this materialistic, earthly Chakra that prompts an individual to tell a lie. Thus, there is an eternal conflict between the tongue and the conscience going on in the individual every minute, and to save his or someone’s skin, he lies.

    Again, Zoroastrianism insists that truth should be told for the sake of truth. This can only be done if the 8th Chakra of the tongue is under control all the time. The earthy element in it should be suppressed as much as possible. All this can be done by following as best as one can, the path of Tarikat (spiritual disciplines) and keeping the Sudreh and the Kusti in trim continually.

    The fact is that, of the four elements of Nature – Fire, Air, Water and Earth – the tongue’s 8th Chakra (plexus) is made of only the Earth elements. The result is that it becomes grossly material and materialism means the seat of Ahriman or his cohorts. It is this materialistic, earthy Chakra that prompts an individual to tell a lie. Thus, there is an eternal conflict between the tongue and the conscience going on in the individual every minute, and to save his or someone’s skin, he lies.

    The question then is: what does the tarikat’s do? Why are they necessary? If the Moral Code is the Path towards God, can we not just comply with it and forget the tarikats?

    The Downward Current.

    No! That won’t do. Every Prophet, every Avatar, every Saint, every Scripture has declared in emphatic terms that THE MIND OF A NON SAINTLY HUMAN IS PRIMARILY INCLINED TOWARDS EVIL. The evil wolf within him is stronger than the good cow. The wolf induces him to think, speak and act contrary to the Moral Code prescribed by Religion. And he is easily lured away. The physical pleasures of the senses constantly drag him towards excesses, inviting spiritual ruin. Human mind is like a boat drifting in a strong downward current towards evil thoughts, words and deeds. To be drifted away is very easy, to be able to swim upwards against the down current is extremely difficult. It requires will, strength and energy. The will is provided by FAITH, and the energy, by TARIKAT. The Path of Good is a difficult upward climb on a mountain, the path of evil is an easy rolling down. Tarikats are the most essential energy tonics to brace oneself to swim up the strong current; to climb up the steep mountain. They are not merely psychological. They actually work on our physical and non-physical bodies and invoke the energy centres – chakra’s which then liberate the spiritual energy to resist the onslaught of evil. Tarikats are the ropes pulling the senses out of the clutches of the evil. The Moral Code can ride only on the horse of Tarikats. It cannot walk alone on its feet. The mind is too weak not to succumb. The evil within is too powerful to be resisted. It is therefore to be alchemlsed. Its quantity within us is required to be reduced, so that the quantity of the good may enhance. Therefore to say that I will just be moral and I do not require Sudreh Kushti or Manthra Prayers is the babble of an ignorant mind. It is only the pride before a fall.

    In the Parsi Religion, the Moral Code is tersely described as “MEHER-PATET”. To observe “Meher” means to endeavour sincerely and truthfully the Religious Code of do’s and dont’s. It is an endeavour, an effort. The mind and the senses, as they are, resist the effort and often do we fall. Fall means commit a breach of the code. That is defined as a sin. If that happens, immerse your mind in ‘Patet’. This is the Religions Decree. Patet has three elements: (i) to repent, to feel a sense of deep sincere regret that the mind and the senses have slipped inspite of best efforts, (ii) to pray to Ahura to confer strength and will or resist the temptation to sin when it comes again and (iii) to pray further that let Ahura impart strength and energy to bear the Karmic reaction of the sin. The third element arises from the truth that every thought, word or deed, good or evil, has a reaction; evil brings in suffering and pain; good, the opposite. Hence the principle is that the strength, the energy, the will to tread on the path of Meher-Patet are generated within us by the observance of Tarikat’s like Sudreh Kushti, Manthra Prayers, Atash-Parasti – praying before Atash, Boonakpasbani (preservation of the racial gene), Kriyakam (performance ‘Kriya’s-rituals, ceremonies for the dead), Dokhm-e-Nashini.

    – Extract from Parsi Pukar Vol. 2; No. 2

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Farzana, why do you like displaying your ignorance on a public forum ?

    Your statement :
    “Vendidad was written thousands of years after Zarathustra during Sassanid times” is wrong ! The Vendidad is the 19th Nask of 21 Nasks given to us by our prophet…..sorry my prophet. Please read up on the Nasks treatise, then come and discuss with me. Your knowledge on religion as always is wanting.

    Farzana wrote : -Gatha which are Zarathustra’s own words does not advocate wearing a sudra and kusti.
    True. Then why did you get your’s and your son’s Navjote performed ? FYI – Gathas cannot exist by themselves, they are a part of a larger text of 72 chapters (Ha) called the Yasna out of which 17 of them are the Gathas. If you dont know and are keen to learn, always ask me before you make such loose statements.

  • rustom jamasji

    @ Farzana, about your claim to sasanian history and to persian disintegraion, I guess you are missing the part opf the reason for Sasanians inculcating Zoroastrian value system in zoroastrian lands since Rome had adapted christianity,Hindu lands had their ideology etc and Christian missoneries were spreading havoc in Persia with their conversions.Thus Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics 11, p. 203 records:
    “Christianity spread widely and was well organized in the Persian Empire under the Sasanians, specially in the Nestorian form. At the moment of the Musalman invasion it counted seven metropolitan provinces and 80 bishoprics, stretching from Armenia to India. Not infrequently Christians enjoyed high favour at the court, especially during the great reign of the first Chosroes.’
    You can read Justi, Boyce, Davoud and many others including the Armenian wars..
    Yes the Sasanians had trade relations with India and that has been quoted by me several times on many other topics as mentioned that the mintage for guj came from Sasanian lands… yet to think that we only came here due to econimical settlement would even baffle the most reformist historian.

    In any case, you wearing the sudreh n kusti really is nt te issue, but it does highlight your contradctions once again when you blame others for not doing things you yourself neglect.
    As far as as zoroastrian deeds, well one can always fuse it with social /moral behaviour of gentleness, truthfuness/respect to elders etc etc yet a good person folloing Islamic/hindu value system canot be deemd folloing Zoroastrian practises…infact your statement shows that the ones who saved zoroastrian practises n zoroastrianism were fools as Zoroastrianism is not about the dos n donts or rights and wrongs acording to zarathushtra’s principle..
    On your percentage of the youth inteersting and organising the evnts , well it was a small percentage of people that saved Israel, or took up the idea to fly to the moon…again I find your statement quite contadicting….well what are you doing to increase the numbers? are you in the center line, are you going to aid it or are you ging to belittle it by trying to be the judge , jury n ecexutioner by claiming that thery are devoid of the knowledge of things they are fighting for..?!!

    @ Firoz Hirjikaka..
    Your statement that all religions are same etc etc…shows yiou have missed the point…firstly i never said that follwoing zoroastrianism is superior to following any other religion…
    Yet ur statement that says that following Hindusim or christianity does not in any way contradict Zoroastrian teaching is academically and philosophically false..
    Lets take the example of death…In hindusim death is an integral part of Gods doings…In Zoroastrianism death is the doing of’ Opposite of Ahura Mazda…..(Do refer to the Gathas, and other texts on this and references to Astahiwad..and the spirits opposing each other..).
    Lets take hindusim again and the tirupati temple where in Hair is collected…now that would be anti Zoroastrian once again due to its philosophy of dead matter…and one would be nsulting an agiary, its people and the faith to fuse the ideology apart from it being morally wrong to hurt the sentiments of those who have sacrificed so much to preserve their faith’s philosophy…as it wuld deem wrong to tell the priest in tirupati to stop his actins as it goes contra to ours..
    Thus with difference in principles , differnces in practise and the dos n donts…Now if you want to Satisfy your or someones Desperation to fuse Zoroastrian principle into Hindusim or vise versa, I cant stop you..yet it would be injustice to Zoroastrianism to link anti Mazda to it and/or link Mazdayasni philosophy of such to Hinduism….

    There are many similarities in each religion , basically..as you said..taking you to God..but then how would it be possible to keep alive a certain philosophy by fusing it or aletring it to suit someone personaly…
    Also would Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Jains, etc fuse theirs or demand to change it into someting else or demand that a faith be changed since they personally dislike it?..

    Also all laws of all Lands are suposedly to protect people…wud you then use to this similarity try and follow Indian laws in the U.S or Saudi Arabia’s Law in the U.K?..this since all laws lead to giving Justice…

    Also since all is the same why dont the Muslims convert to Hinsduism or christians to Islam etc etc…

    On you point 2 of Farazana wearing te sudreh n kusti…well what farzana does pesdonally is her choice yet it contradicts when one then blames others or gives excuses that no one else does it n for the sytem collapsing and then a excuse to change!

    On your ..denfeding/following/practising or learning rituals and practises being different from defending/following/practising the faith..well look into what professors of zoroastrianis have to say and that is..Rituals and practises are the core of any faith especially Zoroastrianism…quite opposite to your thinking..ofcourse that does not deride your choice of ignoring practises of Zoroastrianism but it also does not give you the right to demean what the saviours of Zoroastrianism have passed on…especially after it being opposite to what real professios who have studied zoroastrianism have to say and also logic of not only zoroastrianism but other faiths, sciences etc all being what they sum up to…for example archimeds principle wuld not be it if you remove the principle of boyouncy….

    Perhaps some feel that the rituals are dogmatic…yet one may feel such cause the reasons that preceed /postceede practises are not only in conjuncture harmonously to such but reasons behind them..Infact the same logic would take away several rituals from any faith….tying the sudreh kusti can be perhaps seen as wearing a vest and a rope or according to texts find its importance..or one may just adhere to it so as to keep the traditions alive that then keep the faith alive…or one may always shelter in ‘Im a good human’ and thus a good zoroastrian.hindu/Jew/muslim etc which is a compulsary trait for all faiths or eitheists but does not sum up for being a good mathematician/geologist/scientists or following a particular faith/cult//school/group of the same thought n principles etc..

    On your arm chair philosophers dont want to harm the religion…my take is that..armchair philosophy actually can form a backbone for learning..on any subjet as it shows an inclination to ponder…yet when such then negect the texts , look away from the saviours of the subject, deride any possible movement forward and fibnd loopholes in closure of system or change the belief since it does not suit them..then it becomes dangerous since if someone dioes not want to study the whys of what arch8imedes said but wants tyo aletr it or apply his/her philosophy towards it, sheltering under change or darwins policy then one sinks the ship…due to salvaging his/her ego..

    Dhongidox…now that u do not jump to wadias navjote etc..next step for you is to back your allegations…

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    Dear Behram,
    I appreciate your sharing the article with me, but it hardly makes a convincing counter argument. Are you implying, for instance, that a Zoroastrian who does not wear the sudreh-kusti as a matter of habit, rather than any deep rooted religious conviction, should be automatically branded as an “evil wolf”? If so, that is yr personal interpretation and not necessarily the truth.

    Again, the article talks of good and evil. Does wearing the sudreh-kusti and apishly following rituals automatically make a person “good”. How many Parsis who pride themselves in saying their prayers and following the customs have any idea of the religious significance of what they are doing? They do it because it was done by their parents and grandparents. Coversely, those few Parsis who make an effort to understand the true meaning of their faith cannot be branded as “evil”, merely because they discard the outward trappings.

    “The physical pleasures of the senses constantly drag him towards excesses, inviting spiritual ruin.” This is nothing but a carry over of the narrow minded philosophies of Calvin and extremist Islam. It is what the Taliban use to justify their atrocities. Since when is it a “sin” to enjoy the senses, which after all, are a gift from Ahura Mazda?

    Finally, the “Moral Code of the Parsi Religion”. By it’s very definition, a code is a set of guidelines; and not a fatwa. Above all, Zoaroaster was a very enlightened philosopher. He laid down a set of principles and then left it to his followers to accept, question, or reject them according to their free will. The reason most wars throughout history have been fought in the name of religion is that the self-appointed “guardians” try to ram THEIR “moral codes” down the throats of the populace. The people are not given the liberty to question or think for themselves. The priests use the weapon of fear – “sin” and “hellfire” – to impose their will. Of the original teachings of the Prophet, only those portions that suit their purpose are kept. The rest are discarded, or substitured with their own “moral” interpretations.

  • Does Parsi Pukar not consist of the same moral brigade which opposed restoration of Rustom Fram Fire Temple, which they alleged was desecrated in Feb 2003.? KINDLY READ http:/tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/desec33.html.
    HAS THIS HOLY FIRE TEMPLE BEEN ACTUALLY DESECRATED AS CLAIMED IN THE QUOTED ARTICLE.?
    Credibility level of this group need not be described.KINDLY NOTE THAT IT IS NOT MY CONTENTION TO QUESTION RITUALS,TRADITIONS OR PRAYERS BUT JUST TO POINT OUT THAT THIS PARTICULAR GROUP BELIEVES THAT THEY ARE THE INTERPRETERS AND MESSANGERS WITH EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO ZORO STUDIES.

  • farzana

    Behram==>”Farzana, why do you like displaying your ignorance on a public forum ?”

    ———————————–

    Y-A-W-N!! Like i said, every FOOL is entitle to think he is very wise…

    Next regarding Vendidad … I request you to read some credible historical researches done be credible historians… particularly taking into account historical records and linguistic difference between Vendidad and Gatha…

    And for any one with little sense of logic and knowledge can instantly see that both the texts contradict each other on various places!!

    Again i repeat … no matter what book xyz or abc says… Times have changed ever since they can into existence…people have to adapt with changing times…If you want to crusade against this…. than go to baugs where lagans and navjotes take place and tell those parsi women who wear offshoulder or backless blouses that they are SINNERS and hence excommunicated from Zoroastrianism …If you dont have any GUTS to do that than keep your jab shut …Simple!!

  • farzana

    Rustom… i dont understand what you are trying to say… are you trying to say Persian kings encouraged growth of Christianity?? I hope you aren’t trying to tell me that… because thats far far away from truth…

    Again…i dont wear this or that… has nothing to do with what others do or not do…But they have individual reasons for what they do or not do

    Im just trying to tell you in simple words that people change with times change is inevitable…If you want Zoroastrianism to survive it has to adapt to new times and new thoughts… WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND???
    Today we aren’t communicating with each other in AVESTHAN language…Today we don’t stone women for adultry…she simply has the option of taking a divorce…You get the drift???

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Dear Mr.Hirjikaka and Mr. Antidhongidox,

    I have done my duty in posting this article with an endevaour to educate. You two gentlemen are free to form your own opinions and judgements.

    I have nothing furthur to add.

  • Ratan Elavia

    Behram Dhabhar, your writeup from Parsi Pukar was really thought provoking, inspiring and informative. After going through it all I could say was WOW ! This is the type of philosophy our religion teaches us and its so very true in our everyday lives. Hope to receive more such writeups from you in the future.

  • farzana

    Firoze,
    according to Behram, on other forums…the word ‘SINNER’/’EVIL’encompasses not just those who dont wear extra vest under their ourfit… but also those Zoroastrians who donate their blood because they are polluting the blood stream as per “tokham pasbani”… And same logic stretches to all those who donate their body organs too. Also those parsi bairas who dare to pray or touch pickles during their periods…etc etc etc…

    If we were to make Behram the Pope of Zoroastrianism … he will be the only zoroastrian alive…

    And RUSTOM, that also answers why Zoroastrians in Persia prefered conversion to Christianity…

    Chiow…

  • Behram Dhabhar

    Ratan Elavia,

    If you like what you read, please do visit http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com
    and browse through the articles authored by genuine religious scholars.

    If you wish to take part in religious discussion, ask questions, clear doubts, visit
    http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/ilmeKhshnoom/

    This group is also led by religious scholars of repute who lecture regularly.

    Alternatively send me your email Id on behram24@yahoo.com and I will then send you an ivite.

  • farzana

    Rustom, chk these pics of Roshan Khambatta… it explains what im trying to say all this while. http://www.ushtatebook.com/profiles/blogs/wow-gorgeous-roshan?xgs=1

    take care

    b’byeee

  • Delnavaz

    Hi Behram,

    Thanks for your write up from the Parsi Pukar. Earlier I missed reading it, since I found it very long. But, when I read Ratan’s comment, I thought I should read your write up & it is really very good.

  • Firoze Hirjikaka

    Farzana,
    I saw the photos on UshtateBook of the sudrehless Parsi beauty queen. The real surprise is that they were posted by the patron saint of UB, Meher Amalsad, who raved about her. Perhaps this holy man has lost his way and needs to be rescued by Parsi Khabar’s resident authority on Authority, Behram Dhabar.

  • Ratan Elavia

    Dear Members,

    Isnt it sad that though we Parsis have a wealth of religious information waiting to be tapped and absorbed, our misguided community members choose to ridicule, find fault, and criticize those who spread such info and practice the religion as it should be. I am a novice and have very little religious knowledge but all the same would like to learn and share the truths as they are. I do understand that in today’s hectic lifestyle due to shortage of time and resources we may not be able to follow all rituals and practices but let us all make a humble beginning to do whatever little we can.

    The main difficulty we face is we do not know whom to ask. I do not know whether the High priests are accessible, who are the genuine scholars etc. Not that I have made any attempt, but now onwards I should.

    Behram, I for one would like to be a part of your group. Please bear with me if my questions seem stupid or childish.

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