India’s Disappearing Vultures: Who will eat the Parsi dead?

India’s vultures are disappearing from the country’s skies, declining by as much as 99 percent from their original numbers, with the remainder dying at a rate of more than 40 percent annually, victims of pollution, declining habitat, poisoning, urbanization and a host of other problems, conservationists say.

Although the phenomenon has been documented for more than a decade, nothing appears to be slowing the decline. That has posed a particular problem for the country’s Parsis, a dwindling population themselves, whose religion demands that they leave the bodies of their dead above ground, to be picked clean by the birds.

The Parsis, who fled Persia –the present day Iran — centuries back and made India their permanent homeland, practice the religion of Zoroastrianism. About 100,000 live in major cities like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Kolkata. According to their religious practice, the dead bodies cannot be buried or burnt because the corpses could pollute the Panchabhootam (earth, water, air, ether and fire). Hence their bodies are left in a high-rise ‘Tower of Silence’ to be consumed by the scavengers.

 

"Unfortunately the vultures have disappeared from our region and a sustained breeding project for vultures has become essential," said Khojeste P. Mistree of the World Alliance of Parsi and Irani Zoroastrians, in an interview. "The vulture happens to have been the first scavenger of the world and hence they should be brought back for a sustained ecological balance."

How long there were will be enough Parsis around to satisfy the vultures is another question. According to "Parsi Khabar," a website for the Parsi community in India, the Zoroastrian sect’s numbers are diminishing because of self-imposed discouragement of intercommunity marriages, leading to inbreeding. Members of the community from Hyderabad point out that by rough estimates there are just 70,000 Parsis in Mumbai and 1,200 in Hyderabad.

Many Mumbai Parsis have been pursuing a plan to breed vultures in captivity. However, Minal Shroff, the chairman of the Bombay Parsee Panchayat, which runs the Tower of Silence, said scientists studying the proposal shelved it, saying it will not be possible since vultures appear to be particularly susceptible to a ubiquitous anti-inflammatory veterinary drug called diclofenac. It is cheap and can be used for treating cattle, buffalo, sheep and goats as well as human beings.

Accordingly, in Assam and other areas, conservationists have started captive breeding programs that face problems, but vultures are notoriously hard to get to reproduce. They are monogamous, mating for life and producing perhaps no more than a single egg per year after reaching breeding maturity at five years of life. Critics maintain that the captive breeding programs are being mismanaged and robbing wild populations as the captive breeders steal eggs from native nests.

Vibhu Prakash, the principal scientist for the vulture conservation breeding program at the Bombay Natural History Society, said some nine species of vultures in the wild numbered 40 million birds in the early 1980s. Today, only about 60,000 birds are left. Nor, says Dr Prakash, are other countries in South and Southeast Asia in any better shape. Vultures have been almost wiped out in Bangladesh, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia and Singapore as well as South Asia.

Vultures do not hunt living animals but depend on the carcasses of livestock and wildlife for their primary food supplement. The scavenging birds that way help in keeping the environment clean. And, ugly though they may be, they are an integral link in the natural chain, eating the flesh of carcasses completely and cleanly. The birds thus prevent the spreading of severe diseases like rabies and anthrax among the wildlife, livestock and humans.

A mature vulture may weigh up to 10 kgs and needs almost half a kilogram of meat daily. The most common theory is that the birds are dying from eating meat with high percentages of diclofenac residue. Scientists suspect that the diclofenac remains active for a longer period in the carcasses of treated animals. The drugs reportedly cause dehydration, with the birds soon dying of visceral gout and kidney failure.
"We found that, over 75 percent of vultures which were discovered dead or had died of visceral gout had diclofenac in their tissues," Prakesh said.

The BNHS launched a rigorous campaign against diclofenac in 2003, 10 years after India introduced the drug. New Delhi banned its use for veterinary purposes in 2006. It is also banned in Pakistan and Nepal. However, researchers believe diclofenac made for human needs is being used for veterinary purposes. Hence, the BNHS continues to pursue the government to warn against its veterinarian use.

Not everyone blames diclofenac. Ajay Poharkar, a veterinarian in the Maharashtra Animal Husbandry Department, argues that malaria is also a major cause of vulture deaths.

"I always thought the diclofenac theory was inadequate," Pohakar said in an interview. "One vulture requires around 500 grams of meat per day. In that case, there should be very little trace of diclofenac in their bodies."

Writing in the journal "Current Science" recently, Poharkar cited his experience working with vultures at Gadchiroli, near Nagpur in Maharashtra, arguing that the Gadchiroli farmers are too poor to use diclofenac on a mass scale.

Rather he and his associates found malarial parasites in blood-smear samples from the birds. The Hyderabad based Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology and the veterinary college in Mumbai agreed.

"It is amazing that the malarial symptoms are quite similar to that caused by diclofenac like shivering, ruffled feathers, respiratory distress, circling movement of the head, greenish watery diarrhea, paralysis and anemia," Poharkar asserted.

Prakash says that considering the catastrophic decline and the availability of diclofenac in the markets, a captive breeding program appears to be the only way to save the species. In California, the condor, a giant bird with an eight-foot wingspan, had diminished to just 23 birds in the wild before a captive breeding program was got underway. Today, about 200 pairs have been reintroduced into the wild.

"By bringing some vultures into captivity, their lives can be saved and once they start breeding, they would augment the population," he argues. "The vultures will be released back in the wild once we are sure that there is no diclofenac available in the system."

The century-old BNHS, recognized as one of South Asia’s most respected wildlife research organizations, has already taken initiatives for the captive breeding program. With the support of international organizations like the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (UK), the Zoological Society of London and the Peregrine Fund (US), the BNHS runs vulture breeding centers at Pinjore in Haryana, Rajabhatkhawa in West Bengal and Rani in Assam.

The Pinjore center has 120 vultures and Rajabhatkhawa centre has 76 vultures of three species, the Rani center 30 of two species.

" Our objective is to have 50 birds of each of the three species at Pinjore and Rajabhatkhawa and 50 each of white-backed and long-billed vultures at Rani," said a BNHS official, adding that 75 percent of the birds are to collected as nestlings or juveniles and the rest as adults or sub-adults.

There are critics. Soumyadeep Datta, an environmental activist in Northeast India, argues that the captive breeding of vultures will result in nothing.

"Mature vultures select their partners in the wild and the birds lay eggs in such a way that cannot be arranged in captivity," Datta said. "They are monogamous birds and they maintain the loyalty of conjugal lives till death. Only one egg is expected from a pair in one season. The caring mother continues its close bond with the baby till the chick attains maturity," said Datta, who serves as the director of Nature’s Beckon, an Assam based environmental NGO.

"The indiscriminate lifting of chicks from nests, as done by the BNHS people in Assam, will only disrupt the male-female ratio," he added. "We suspect that collecting babies from the nests will have a negative impact on the sex ratio and the population in our region."

Datta said that unlike other parts of India, the populations of white-rumped and long-billed vultures have been stable if not increasing. Although the birds are breeding naturally in the state, he said, members of Nature’s Beckon suspect that the BNHS people have captured as many as 100 adult and semi-adult birds in Assam since 2005, with most of them taken to breeding centers of Haryana and West Bengal.

Asad Rahmani, the BNHS director, faced public outrage in Assam when local people protested the capturing of vultures from their localities. Nature’s Beckon has urged the Assam government to stop activities of BNHS people in the region and also demanded an enquiry about the fate of the birds.

Whatever their fate, it is certain that it will take a longtime to restore the native population by captive breeding. Nita Shah, the BNHS vulture advocacy program officer, acknowledges that vultures breed slowly. As they give birth to only one chick a year and a baby takes nearly four years to attain sexual maturity, she said, nobody should hope ‘for the population to be restored to its original size within our lifetime."

Article Source

  • rustom jamasji

    There are those who strive to improve situations taking into account the assets and the liabilties of a program..
    The sucess of a project especially in saving a extinct creature outmatches the initial failures and the process of ‘lengthy time’.

    After all rome as not built in a day nor was normal medical benefits as seen in modern time, nor was the Mission to moon nor the Wright Bros goal that sees modern planes in the air.

    Piloo’s dilema would have put wright bros agenda n thus modern planes in a state of limbo or the modern man’s thirst to cure cancer , AIDS etc TO be stopped.

    Infact there would have been no Zoroastrianism today if one followed the examples of Piloo or on the same lines.

    Piloo yes we have read Ms Shah’s line, we also acknowledge that Ms Shah is not going to give up on vulture conservation. We also know from news report that Eighteen slender-billed vultures, the rarest of three endangered species living in India, were caught in Assam and used to start breeding programmes late last year in Haryana and West Bengal.
    Since December, the captive population has soared to 78 birds with some having been bred and more caught in the wild.
    They are being kept in aviaries at the two centres, where their health is monitored
    Conservationists aim to rear at least 200 vultures over the next few years, and introduce them back into their original habitats once the areas are free of diclofenac, the anti-inflammatory drug responsible for their decline.

    Dr Prakash has also said that ‘“Bringing as many vultures into captivity as possible is the best way to save them from going extinct,” he said.’…

    Now Piloo and those who do not have the inner strength to contribute either to nature, nor their own roots can always see the dark side, whilst those who have the zoroastrian quality of positivness, work and dedication will take solace that the World n world bodies with latest technology are working on the same lines as Zoroastrians thatw ant to continue their systems.

    Piloo also can shun reports that showcase the lack of space and thus vertical buriyals especialy in Europe, and the damage that cremation does…

  • piloo

    Mr. Jamasji,
    Where have I suggested Crematorium,in my write up?. How long do you assume the Community will survive in Mumbai going by the demographic decline?. Mumbai may get vultures in sufficient numbers as hoped by you after Parsis are wiped out.
    You quotes about Wright Brothers are relevant but Boeing Company or Air bus have changed the Technology, havent they?. That is called adaptability and accepting change as a way of life. Once upon a time, we had “Muktad” ceremonies stretching for 18 days, why were they reduced to 10. Earlier, without medication mortality rate was higher, do we not now consume modern medicine and not rely on great grand mother’s “Chhalo Palo”
    Is there no Zoroastrianism in Panchgani, Calcutta, New Delhi, Chennai, London and New York?in absence of your revered system of disposal of dead? Then what prompts you to say that ‘there would have been no Zoroastrianism to -day if one followed examples” of mine. Is your concept of Zoroastrianism confined to vulture culture and not Manashni, Gavashni , Kunashni.Is Zoroastrianism not related to fire worship. If you and your supporter want to believe birds of prey constitute Zoroastrianism, please continue your ‘far sighted’ concept of Zoroastrianism.

  • piloo

    Addendunm to Mr Jamasji,
    I do not wish to prolong this ‘intellectual” debate with a Scholarof your stature possessing inner/ outer strength, ( what ever that means) Please enjoy living in your own world. Yazda Panah Baad.

  • Rational but Religious.

    More harm has been done to religious cause by self contradictory statements as made by people like Jamasji.He talks of scientific advancememt and pain killers like Diclofenac are recent inventions.Will Jamasji and his like minded thinkers be able to persuade Medicos not to prescribe pain killers to those having ailments like Sciatica, Lumbago, Rheumatism etc and let patients suffer in the ‘greater’ cause of population expansion of birds of prey?. Extinction of birds and animals is also due to reduction in forest cover.Can vultures survive in concrete jungle of Bombay in absence of forest cover.
    In suburbs of Bombay near Borivli, human encroachments have led to attacks on humans by leopards. So do we relocate leopards or allow them to proliferate.
    A few questions for you Sir.
    1.Was Electricity discovered in time of the Lord Zoraster?
    2. Was/ is cotton capable of being grown in Iran.
    3. Was Spinning Jenny invented in the time of Zoraster?
    If your answer to all the three is NO, then how did Zorastrians wear Sudreh in those times?
    Evolution is a process and our great religion has evolved over centuries.
    If some persons religious thinking differs from yours, Mr Jamasji, they are not irreligious/negative. Your views do not make you more Jarthosti than others who hold a more practical view. Optimist is a person who sees brighter side not one who puts on glasses of higher numbers to see bigger images or indulge in fanciful thoughts.

  • rustom jamasji

    Well well reading the above posts makes me feel that piloo, framji and the r but r have completely missed the point.

    At the onset all three have shown their wisdom by stating that anyone who wants to conserve vulture includign world bodies are fools, akin to collecting tube lights and all sort of justification given by the trio..

    Framji you not only in you fervour have established a connection with keeping old fused tube lights with using modern age technologies but assume that conservation itself is old fashioned. That is your wisdom! I have clarly mentioned even in my earlier posts in regards to vulture conservation programes that we should use modern technology and garner world support that shers our concern!!
    Now i do assume that u understand the term’ modern technology”

    The R BUT R guy also assumes and attributes giving wrong medications to people, to again conservation, in this case vulture conservation. Hope R But R does not give the same to tiger conservationists or for that mater even vulture consevationist. He would seem out of sync.

    On his questions,
    1)no in most probablity electricity was not discovered in times of zoroaster, yet zorastrianism talks of metaphysics, phsysics and properties that cannot be measured by science…just like any other religion…if you are assuming that crematoriums were not a taboo since they did not exist..u again show rue lack of knowledge in knowing why its banal to z’ism…it wud also lead you to the process of making or concecrating an agiary…where in a fire from a dead corpse is taken n purified with certain prayers.Ofcourse the next ruse is that this sounds so not modern, yet this is what zoroastrianism says, n no one has forced you to believe in them..just as the notion of God itself cannot be proved.

    surprisingly zoroastrian books also talk of space, time, and space without time, dvelwe on what is known as ‘Glenn effect’ only in the 1960’s in the kemna mazda prayer, talk of the moon having effect on animals and tides,in the mahboktar nniyas….and also astronomy..especially in the mino i xrat…but alas U can negate all this just because zoroaster wasnt in star trek and didnt have a space shuttle..!!!

    2) ure second question shows ure lack of historical knowledge. The mazdayasni empire wasnt parametered to Iran, yet yes we have physical proof of the sudreh being worn in Iran…and you might fel u have cracked the case, but sherlock,historians like Mary Boyce etc give credence to this fact as the saviours of zoroastrianism brought it and paseed it along…compare ure knowledge to such historians, maybe ull give up being a detective

    3)Probably not, but ice xcream was invented in Persia much before what u term as a ‘refrigerator or a freezer was invented..how come!!!!?.

    Infact ure arguments are akin to the arabs n christo empore that asked the zoroastrian to leave our faith..cause they cud extinguish the holy fire by pouring water!!!

    so to sum it up, framji thinks those who conserve and save from extinction birds of prey and animals are akin to keeping old tube lights…

    R BUT R says sudreh wanst there at the time of zoraster, and compares using modern technologies to save extinct animals to giving wrong medications!!

    I have always accepted that the dokhmenishini system needs a ‘doing’..it needs strenghtening and working on…to get it back on track..like any other systems..just like piston engines gave way to jet engines, boeing i think some one gave the example…doesnt stop flying!!!its in the air…technology ahs changed…
    lets use the technology..the latest..to get back the birds…we will also have given back to nature…

  • satya prakash

    Only writing comment will not help,there is much to be done in this field. Neo Human Foundation is working with forest department in Hazaribag, Jharkhand,India to save these vulture in wild. The only place left in Jharkhand where substantial population of vulture exist (around only 100 vulture left). We are not getting financial help from anywhere, we need help from public if they are serious about the vanishing vulture. We need help especially from parsi community to save the endngered species of bird. We appeal the whole humanity to cooperate us financially,so that we can force our maximum energy in this project.

    Satya Prakash
    President
    NEO HUMAN FOUNDATION

  • Siloo Kapadia

    Finally, the REAL majority have spoken up against the Bawajis.

    Yes, the whole custom of vulture culture is decrepit and should be dead. Cremation, burial, neither of these are wrong or bad.

    The Bawajis may want to instead look at the dwindling numbers of Parsees in Mumbai to realize that they will soon be wiped out completely. Yet in North America and even in Hong Kong and Singapore we ae thriving! Why is this?

    Because we abroad are open to new ideas and new members. So while those in Mumbai are struggling to stay afloat, Zoroastrian communities in other nations are having trouble buying newer, bigger halls for their functions. At ZAGNY many functions are completely sold out, and the best thing is that the UNDER 70 population is the vast majority, far different from the situation in India and Pakistan.

    So think again, dear Bawajis, on your use of money and your ideas on religion. And until some real changes happen, I for one am withholding my money from all India-related projects.

  • rustom jamasji

    ok fvramji and siloo, what r u guys arguing about..vultures or parsi population..
    framji again u show ure being divorced from reality…on ure question to this and even to siloos jumping topics on ‘technology for increasing population….the parsi community has evolved a scheme for USING THE LATEST in Vitro fertilisation programes….aided by a very professional PARSI DOCTOR–Thanks to her!!!!! In ure jumping topics n blaming you once again probably due to your negativity have malingned th4e good offices of this Doctor and also those PARSI PARENTS that strive to increase our population!

    Also ure argument contradicts ure own statements…if ure claim that we are dying out…then why worry..if the vultures die out too…
    yes and vultures can adapt to urban life..i think u need to travel…atleast singapore night safari!!!!, our dokhmenishini lands can be quite usefull to them..also u can google abt the same..

    I end here again with Vibhu Prakash’s statement ‘‘“Bringing as many vultures into captivity as possible is the best way to save them from going extinct,” he said.’…
    ..

    now framji..get more of ure cotorie and find fault with Parsi dressing style’ or any other topic…that u feel cud justify not availing MODERN TECHNOLOGY,experts opinions, and world concerns in vulture conservation that also benefits the continuation of Zoroastrian system!!!
    btw the singapore night safari goes a full show

  • Dear every one on this page.
    Don’t waste time in arguing for hyophetical matter.Kindly see the the reality.This page is for vulture conservation and not for Parsi conservation.Vultures are not the property of individuals this of nature and fly long distance,once the population is restore it can self migrate of can be moved into new place there is no problem in this. So kindly dont’t waste the time if you can do something practicaly for Vulture then good if not then please be aside from this page. Sorry for using hard word.
    Rustom jamasji has righly writen that conserving vulture will also benifit the continuation of Zoroastrian system.

  • piloo

    Siloomai,
    Firstly not all bawas of Mumbai are ‘nuts’ though no doubt many persons with cobwebs in their thinking are available in plenty, paricularly in ghettos like that of Dadar PC.
    Issue in question can not be solved by arguments on this board or by litigation which is time consuming and costly. BPP Trustees pay Fees of Lawyers from Trust funds and not out of their own pockets.Unfortunately, the adult frenchise has given them wrong stamp of legitimacy.
    What is needed is funds to have a Hall, somewhere in South Mumbai,
    for first 4 days prayers. It has to be a mortuary cum prayer hall. Once that is set up, let us see to what the majority exercises its option.
    Now you Sir, Mr.Satyaprakash,we appreciate your concern for conservation but you being a rational person would realise that
    1) It would be impossible to ban the use of Dicolfenac and other such drugs in the immediate forseeable future;
    2)Mumbai has lost its green cover and yet BPP in its wisdom wants to construct another multi storied building around the Towers.There is concrete jungle all around.Is it then possible for birds of prey to survive? Zoroastrian’system’ is no longer a system and to revive it in its original form under present conditions in Mumbai is an impossibility besides the time factor that such conservation would entail. Hope you will appreciate the economic implication for the community with its dwindling numbers.By the time there are vultures, there would be few Parsees left.These facts are not hypothetical. One individual boarder does not make up for representation of the voice of the community.
    Regards,

  • Rational but Religious.

    The language of Posts of Shri Satya Prakash seems identical to that of R.J.
    Satya Parkash wants us to believe that climatic and ecological of Jharhand and Bombay are same. Hope Satya Prakash has seen Bombay.
    R.J. and Satya Prakash are free to start a joint venture with seed capital from Venture Capital fund of BPP.Who knows they may earn a profit from their earnest desire to save environment thru “Modern Technology” a term oft repeated but apparently not understood by anybody, in this context.

  • Anti Dhongidox

    So Parsees should replicate in Bombay conditions as prevelent in Jharkhand.Thats what Mr. Satya Prakash wants.His good intentions apart, reading his Two posts above gives a feeling, a strange one, may be a coincidental, the language of his post ‘echoes’ Jamasji’s views.Feel they are writing in concert not independently.They both seem to be having commonality of ‘interest’ in the project.

  • “Please be aside from this page” Who do you think you are, Mr SatyaPrakash. A Head Master? Please provide details of Website of your foundation. Our community does not appreciate dictatorial language from a humanist.

  • rustom jamasji

    Ha ha, gosh u guys go to any extent…..what r u suggesting mr anti dhongi dox….and its quite ample to c from where such allegations come up from…a person who wont even out his real name..u guys after being proven wrong in all ure absurd arguments, after jumping from topic to topic , now lastly take shelter in fantasies that u turn into allegations..

    and now please blame mr vibhu prakash that he is in concert with me…..all the world bodies..or the ones that use modrrn technologies to start aviaries for vultures as we share the same goal..

    Guys dont u feel embarassed by your fantasies, allegations, lack of knowledge, ure desperations …
    u guys make us parsis a laughing stock….

    yet comparing collecting tube lights to flora/fauna conservation takes the cake..
    btw if some is trying to suggest that im from Dadar Parsi colony, that again is wrong!!!

  • Dear sir,
    I am not a dictator nor a head master. I am just a simple person. Sorry if my word has hurt you, my intensin was not to hurt any body but only sensitize about the vanishing vulture. I am mainly concern about the Biodiversity of earth, I dont wish to see the whole earth a concreate forest like Bombay (for kind information I have seen)or Kolkata or similar place. I am not concern about any particular religion my concern is for the whole humanity. I am a Zoologist and a simple Human being and don’t want to see these beautiful non-violence scavenger vanishing from the earth. Since vulture are an important part of ecosystem and perform a task naturally by eating the carcass of cattle or any other big mammals within minutes,this phenomenon is a gift of nature to get rid of dead. In absence the ecosystem is going to distirb with various negative consequences. I see the whole world and Humanity in unity which is free from geographical,religious or political barrier. I am more concern about Nature/wildlife conservation than any other issue. We are creating our website this you can see by cliking our post.
    In india everyone is free to express his view. Once again I am sorry for disturbing.

  • Firstly, you have not provided details of Website of your Foundation as asked for.
    Secondly, this is a Parsi Blog and you ask Parsis to be ‘aside from this page’. You want all other boarders to listen to one solitary individual.
    R.J is confused about whom he is referring/relying, i.e. Mr Vibhu Prakash or you.
    Lastly, you have yourself stated in an earlier post that you are concerned with vulture conservation and not conservation of Parsis. If there are no Parsis what would be the use of Vultures
    to the community though it may help ecology. As for comments of RJ, like other boarders, I too have deicded to ignore this confused person who calls you Vibhu Prakash in June 17 post. Let him live in fantasy world.

  • Rational but Religious

    It is clear from the Posts sts 14 & 17th instant of Mr. Satya Prakash that he is concerned with a Foundation in Jharkhand. He is not to be CONFUSED with Scientist Mr. Vibhu Prakash of Bombay Natural History Sociey as has been done by “Mr Know All”.The main article of Parsi Khabar referes to observations of Mr. Vibhu Prakash and Ms. Nita Shah. who has catefgorically stated that “nobody should hope for the population (vulture) to be restored to its original size within our lifetime.”

  • Anti- Dhongiodox

    There is an covert attempt to ‘mobilise’ opinion to make BPP shell out funds for this “experiment’ at the cost of welfare of the community. BPP funds are in the form of Trusts with Object Clause and any deviation from the ‘object’ as laid down by the Settlor will compel Parsis to approach Charity Commissioner.
    What has been stated by Ms. Nita Shah is in simple English and Parsis do not require “Sorabji’ ‘Dorabjis”Rustmojees’ or for that matter anybody to ‘interpret’ and comprehend the firm but clear statement of Ms. Shah.
    Those in favour of such an ‘experiment’ are free to raise resources of their own and prove their bonafides.

  • rustom jamasji

    Framji on what basis are you saying I am confused between Dr Prakash and Satya? is it due to your deficiency to understand what ive written? also u blamed others of being a school principal on what basis are you saying things on my behalf?..but maybe its difficult for you to understand anything as for you, since the parsis are dying one shouldnt protect the vultures?!!!!and using modern technology,harvesting world experience and concerns is akin to collecting old tubelights!!!and the persian art to storing ice thru summer in specially deviced facility called yackchals….in 400 bc to simply taking ice from the snow!!!!..knowledge..look at you!!the world recognises this fact and u have your indegenious idea however warped n claim other’s as stupid..then u belitle efforts of parsis n efforts used with modern technology to increase our population …

    R BUT R i am not trying to confuse anyone with satya prakash..infact it was one of you you linked me to satya prakash…and all i said was you can also link me to Vibhu Prakash as he also shares concern and works towards vulture conservation..but again you have shown ure skills earlier..you also change the words n thus implicastions of what Ms Shah said. she said longtime…not lifetime’…and acknowledging the problem and working towards it cannot be constructed as working against it..!! vulture breeding programes have already born sucess!!!what are u tsalking about lifetime…and zoroastrianism survives today and its practises continue due to efforts of more than 10 centuries…10 lifetimes…but i guess one shud be aare of zoroastrian history..otherwise again..devicing ice storage in 400 bc wud be taken as simply collecting ice from snow as done by frsamji!!also before really fantasiing other’s mistakes..and links, please atleast stop wrtiting under fictitious name.

    Mr Dhongi, if you were anti dhongi , u wudnt have used a dhongi’ Name..so one more of your dellussion put to rest..
    Ofcourse what Ms Shah said is amply clear and no one has denied the challenges thouigh R BUT R has changed ‘long time to lifetime’..

    As far as spending BPP money, again u show lack of knowledge, the main reasons for formation of BPP was to look after, MAINTAIN dokhmenishini!!!!!TO Maintain means to look after, strengthen and oversee the continuation..but i guess you would only like free flats and BPP money to PAY YOUR OLUTGOINGS!!!

    All u guys do is WANT!! WANT the settlkers will to be nullified, WANT monies for the survival of what was given to us free for a reason, to be changed and spend to your conviniences and tastes, WANT TO change zoroastrian systemns as left by the saviours of zoroastrianism, WANT TO malign any and everyones effort…ure thirst even embarasses a true debate on pros and cons as the cons of any project are acknowledged and thus steps taken to superseed it and lay victorious…

    After changing topics, linking technological conservation to old bulb collection, to dpc ghettos,to fictitious links thoug under fictitious names!!!, comparing storing ice without what we term freezer today thru out season, to just coolection of snow in winter…to seing MS Shah as working for vulture conservation as portrying its uselessness..u guys are even an embarrasment to those with genuine concerns of dokhmenishini

  • Rational but Religious

    I have not changed the statement of Ms. Shah from long time to life time as falsely alleged. In the original article as published hereabove the last three words are ‘within our life time”. You may care to read again yourself. Sorry,I am not an Optician, otherwise I would have provided you with a new pair of reading glasses free of cost.
    Moreover, I am not a resident of a building under BPP or Wadia Trust.So no question of being a parasite to the Community.
    Two important questions arise:
    Firstly, how come Shri Satya Prakash became aware of this blog Parsi Khabar;
    Secondly, how Shri Satya Prakash became aware of this Article unless some person with ulterior motives drew his attention.
    Frustration is palpable.Nothing more to add.You can not expect to thrust your views on others and expect them to be your blind followers.
    If BPP’s main objective is to conduct ‘experiments’ let them go ahead but financial reponsiblity in event of failure of the ‘project’ will be that of individual trustees.Remember Object clause of Truste Deeds can not be altered/violated to suit the whims and caprices of crackpots. Dharmada Ayukta is located at Worli.

  • Siloo Kapadia

    Piloo Deekree:

    I agree that not all the Bawas are nuts, though many are close to it. I am just afraid that with all this antiquated thinking the whole Parsee community in India will be all but wiped out. Again, most of the so-called “Parsees”, that is, those that are accepted as such by the bawaji bullies, are over the age of 70. My recent trip back confirmed this. I was shocked. Many of the younger ones have intermarried and thus were “no longer accepted.”

    Now look at what they are arguing about, the perpetuation of vultures. How stupid! The whole community is dying out and they are worried about these filthy birds of prey. No wonder there will be few left.

    You don’t hear these kinds of mad talk in ZAGNY or even in Singapore or Hong Kong. There they talk about religion, building new temples, charities, etc. How different!

    I am just afraid that the Parsee legacy in India will end within my lifetime, and I do not want to see this happen.

  • satya prakash

    No one has motivated me. I was just serching on the web regarding vulture conservation and I came across this article.O.K.
    I am taking back my request for vulture conservation from your community. Sorry for writing in your blog.

  • Anti Dongidox

    There was a Hollywood Movie naned “A man who knew too much” Here we have a man who knows too little, thinking he is a genius, discussions with whom has generated more heat than light.His English vocabulary and style leaves much improvement.
    The very thought of shelling out money from one’s own pocket for his obsession has caused shivers.
    Every one wants to be subsidised and conduct experiments at the cost of charity funds.I am sure he will be posting another confusing message on this issue ‘just to be the final voice’thinking it is his ‘victory’. I for one will not allow him that satisfaction.

  • rustom jamasji

    R BUT R,on your statement of mr prakash reading a parsi blog…u mean to say that this blog is read only by Parsis?<,or shud be ? cmon man, again u with ure pseudo name are alledging others of your fantasies…

    Yes imissed out on the last lie of MS SHah..but nowhere is it mentioned that she is giving up on vulture conservation, infact her job pertains vulture conservations..which u try and portray as something totsally opposite..why do u think she and world bodies are trying to conserve vulture if it was so hopeless…and btw vulture breeding programes are already sucessfull..and the parsi population neeed not need the ORIGINAL VULTURE POPULATION of millions around India..nor does the world body envisage such…but patiently that too will become a fact!!!!…just because u do not have the patience and WANT things done without HELPIONG OR WAITING, doesnt mean everything has to be stopped
    Your ,LAST comments on experiments, SHOW YOU ARE NOT AT ALL RATIONAL…just like the one putting dhongi name yet calleing himself anti-dhongi, you just have proven you sare not at all rational..here is why..

    If all research and experiments were to be born by the experimentors and researchers, man would not ahve been on the moon, defense equipment which u so badly use, would have not been invented, programes for savuing ancient structures including Zoroastrian structures and others like the ppyramids, taj, ankor wat, singapore asian musuem, indian museuam the red fort, the smithsonian library, the royal asiatic society, cionservation of flora and fauna, including preservation of tigers and vultures, and even indegenious tribes would immediately cease. Medical inventions would stop, cure for cancer/ aids etc would stop…birth mortality would not be stopped ..

    also again from suoer structures to maintaining a bulding would stop…as according to you, maintainance of such a system shouldnt be strengthened and those who strenghten it should do it from their expence..

    also as i said earlier, the bpp was founded for the main purpose of overseing dokhmenishini….and that shud continue…it is you guys who for your desperatyion would use such blackmailing so that funds can be used to suit ure tastes..how magnanimous..next you will say funds for collecting zooastrian texts should not be used for microprocessing as ;if the books get spoiled, then the bearers of such good work will pay the reprecussions…thats really rational..is it????

    so now your thirst for stopping dokhmenishini, would make u guys stoop to such levels that u would stop eoople from working towards strenghtening it, stopping the harnessing of worod exposure towards such..stop trying and finding out ways to continue zorosastrian systems..
    thank god u were not in the boat that our forfathers took, otherwise you would have blatantly said that if they were to fail in their endevouir to escape…the guys who took the decission would have to pay the consequences….

    also good u are not in nasa…u would ahve told the astonaughts that they were to pay for the cost of building the shuttle incase their mission is not sucessfull!!!

    u call ure self rational??
    i guess u dont want the pains, u dont want anyone else to take the pains..all u want is the gains!!

  • rustom jamasji

    on my earlier post, it shud read i miised out on the last line..of MS Shah’s statement…sorry but im typing using a satellite card n so have to hurry

  • Rational but Religious

    Mr. Rustom Jamasji.
    Sir,
    Your masterly crafted replies left me bewildered how to further discuss with a sole repository of knowledge on all subjects such as you.
    You say that conservation is important, – important for whom, Ecology or for Parsis of Mumbai?.
    Be precise in your answers and do not beat about the bush. When we talk about chalk , do not talk of trees as is your apparent habit.
    You have not answered my questions perhaps because you can not answer them.
    In my earlier post, I have not stated that during the time of prophet, no body wore sudreh. My aim to ask a question about the material from which Sudreh was then made was to make you realize that in absence of Cotton and in absence of spinning wheel. Sudreh was made from different material and that we have improved upon it or shall we say changed to Mulmul from textile mills. My emphasis was that change is the essence of time. You were unable to grasp the logic.
    My second googly to you was about Iran being a rocky mountainous country. During the time of the Prophet even tools/ implements to dig were not available/ or were too primitive. Perhaps for this reason burial was not considered suitable. (You will not agree)
    My third point about electricity during the time of the Prophet was to suggest that if the same had been discovered then , perhaps the Prophet would have considered using the same for disposal of mortal remains. Mind you, I lay emphasis on words perhaps and considered.(You are free to use adjectives of your choice against me)
    According to you, conserving vultures is more important then humans suffering pain if pain killer like Diclofenac are banned.

    You say that in Persia ice cream was made before the invention of Refrigerator. My counter question is do you find ‘Dudh na Puff’ during May or in December. Climate is the factor which depends on altitude and distance from equator apart from other factors. Religion has nothing to do with ancient Persian Ice cream. Even now one can make ice cream without refrigerator by use of ‘Sancha”(Hand made)
    You are free to write ad infinitum on any blog of your choice and propagate your “intellectual and scholastic”views but you have no right to ridicule others whose thinking does not conform to yours. All those who have discussed on this topic , according to you, are ignoramuses/heretics and wrong and you alone are qualified to be the sole interpreter of issues. You say that the existing system of disposal of mortal remains needs a ‘doing” Why may I ask? And ‘doing’ what? You talk of Modern Technology without any relevance.
    You may not concede but one has to learn more from the views of his/her opponents than from those of servile supporters.Obstinacy is not a virtue.
    You have alleged that boarders have maligned a Doctor specializing in In Vitro fertilization. I find nothing in write ups to that effect. No body can reply to incoherent hallucinations. You have unwittingly confirmed the fact that you want the “last word”.
    You can suggest to BPP Trustees to convert the Towers to Tourist centre for night Safari, Singapore type. BPP will earn income.Thanks for showing off that you have travelled abroad.
    You have also alleged that some boarders are fictitious.My E Mail address is mentioned here and you are free to verify my credentials.
    One suggestion, you can request Parsi Khabar to exclusively allow you to “Rate” your own messages and give 5 Star rating to your own fanciful ‘Theories.’
    This happens to be my last visit on this particular page since I believe it is futile to discuss with an obstinate person not receptive to discuss pos and cons but wants others to agree with his obsolete ideas.

  • Siloo Kapadia

    Piloo deekree, I agree 100%. I would like to restate, however, that VULTURES should not be the topic, rather the VANASHING PARSEE should be.

    That is why I say that the BPP finances should be closely watched and that half the money should be given to more progressive Parsees who want to see the community flourish, not flounder.

    The current over-70-Bawas just don’t get it. Then again, they don’t have to. Their remaining time is short, so what do they care if the community is gone 50 years after their deaths? As long as they can “eat, drink, and live in their own worlds”, so be it.

    For myself, I am concerned as I do not want the community in India to dissappear. I agree with you, that NOW is the time to plan for the future. The Bawas are like the Republican party in the US, they live in Laa Laa land, where everything is what they think it is. For them, the future is the next ten years, then khalas!

    To them I say, kappal, tobaa, dhurr ne matti! It is time sensible people such as ourselves move to take back the religion, the same way they are doing in Iran right now!

  • Siloo Kapadia

    BTW, I am on Facebook under my own name.

  • rustom jamasji

    This s with regards to RNR question of cotton production at time of zarathushtra ad thus sudreh…

    Here is the evidence of this
    ‘Further evidence for a late Second Millennium BC
    start to spinning comes from the Southern Neolithic’

    ‘Almost all spindle whorl finds come from Southern Neolithic Phase III, which dates from 1800-1300 BC’

    ‘This suggests
    that spinning (and presumably weaving practices)began in the later Neolithic during the early to mid-Second Millennium BC. There is no hard evidence

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/silva/archaeology/staff/profiles/fuller/PDFs/TextilesbeyondIndus.pdf

    This shows that many who want to change zoroastrianism, trying desperately to malign practises left by the saviours of zoroastrianism if their demands are not met.
    Armchair philosophy contradicting Zoroastrian philosophy thus demanding and thinking arbitary change is necessary and imperative has the same results as those that tried and extinguish Zoroastrianism for ever thru the milenias of Byzantines wars and arab wars against our ancestors..

  • Zerxes Dordi

    I read this 11 month old topic and would like to know if the Aviary Project so avid to one particular blogger here has made any ‘progress’?
    I await a clarification.

  • Boman Patel

    Ten months back the name of the game was to take simple minded average middle of the road Parsees for a ride by hoodwinking and gift of the gab. The same is now fully exposed. Do we now find messages on this portal from the same cabal of Bananawalla, Juisewalla, Babar, Dabur or any ‘sjee’? And these ‘upholders’ of our faith claimed to have been offended when exposed as Dhongees.They are now ashamed to post messages in their original names as earlier but the same bunch of hoodwinkers sporadically post their ‘holy’ views’ on religious issues with pseudonyms,’pet’ names, monikers etc etc,the language of such posts shows the origins. Got it Zerxes.

  • contra dhongi.

    Dear Boman,
    I was a regular on this portal debating the very topic but I later found that these persons whom you refer as cabal were a just a handful of flatterers, the right word would be sycophants of one reactionary ‘organisation’. I had then advised other well meaning and enlightened minded boarders not to waste their time arguing with persons who have no say on the subject but were posting their ‘authoritarian views’ just to read their own names. As I said then, these persons were incapable of breaking even a baked ‘ pappad ‘.
    Now belatedly, you and others are realising the true ‘merit’ of such persons. Any was, as they say, better late than never.

  • Tehmul.

    “Unfortunately the vultures have disappeared from our region and a sustained breeding project for vultures has become essential,” said Khojeste P. Mistree of the World Alliance of Parsi and Irani Zoroastrians, in an interview. “The vulture happens to have been the first scavenger of the world and hence they should be brought back for a sustained ecological balance.”WORDS OF WISDOM FROM A SCHOLAR (!) OF RELIGION. Yes, Mr. Khojeste  Mistree, what have you done about you pet Aviary Project during last 34 months that you are holding office of B.P.P. Trustee. You owe an answer to the Community whom you deceived to get Votes.  Do you think anybody now believes a word that you utter.

  • Mike

    Ah the Parsis should try hyenas….one scavenger is good as the other…..personal when I am dead I don’t care what happens to my body….probably will donate it for science for the greater good

  • Mike

    Ah the Parsis should try hyenas….one scavenger is good as the other…..personal when I am dead I don’t care what happens to my body….probably will donate it for science for the greater good

  • Mike

    Ah the Parsis should try hyenas….one scavenger is good as the other…..personal when I am dead I don’t care what happens to my body….probably will donate it for science for the greater good