Ervad Marzban J. Hathiram, editor of Frashogard.com and a good friend of Parsi Khabar shares a letter the editor of Jame-Jamshed.
Ervad Marzban J. Hathiram writes
The Editor
Jame-Jamshed
Mumbai.
Dear Sir,
I have been following with interest the ongoing debate about Dokhmenashini in your paper. As one who has done a little study on the subject, I feel it necessary and in public interest to share with your readers some basic facts about the Dokhmenashini system.
The system of Dokhmenashini has several facets. The least important of these is the speedy disposal of the physical body, with the minimal amount of pollution. It is pertinent to note that the Avesta refers to the system as "hvare-daresana", Pahlavi "khurshed nigarashni", i.e., exposure to the sun. The Vendidad does mention the agency of the "kaharkasas", i.e. meat eating bird [vulture], but only as secondary. The entire issue being raked up here is the paucity of birds – but these were never considered as an essential prerequisite for the efficient working of this system.
The larger issue, however, and one which has been consistently ignored by all and sundry is that the dokhma and Dokhmenashini is NOT merely a system for disposing off a dead body. Were it so then, theoretically, we should have no objection to a member of any other community desiring to consign his body in this manner. But it is not so.
It is pertinent to mention that the Avesta says that a human body is composed of nine parts: – three physical – tanu, gaetha and azde; three semi-physical – keherp, ushtan, tevishi; and three spiritual/immortal – ruvan, baodangh and fravashi. Any system of disposal of the dead has to ensure that ALL THESE NINE PARTS are efficiently dealt with – not only any one group.
The dokhma is first and foremost an alat, an instrumentality of the Zoroastrian religion, much as an Atash Behram or an agiary. The dokhma is an important part of a four part system that ensures that not only is the physical body disposed off, but also that the spiritual aspect of the soul’s onward journey is facilitated in a most efficient manner. Thus the Dokhma is one of the four wheels of the car that drive the soul on its onward journey – remove a single wheel, and you can imagine what happens. The other three wheels of this car are:
1. The sachkar ceremony
2. The geh-sarna ceremony
3. The dokhma
4. The four days prayers for the departed soul.
Concentrating on the dokhma, it is apparent from its method of construction and consecration that it is not merely a receptacle for putting a dead body – were it that way then we could have used an open hill top too. I would request readers to go through the same Dr Jivanji Mody’s book on Zoroastrian ceremonies to get an idea of the immense time and effort it takes to construct and consecrate a single dokhma. Without going into details [which are sufficient to merit a complete book in their own right], we can summarise:
1. The physical construction of the dokhma is such that it takes care of the physical aspect of the disposal of a body. – the tanu, gaetha and azda are dealt with
2. The ceremony of "tana" which is done prior to the construction of the dakhma, in its foundation pit, ensures that the semi-physical bodies are properly dealt with – keherp, ushtan and tevishi
3. The consecration ceremonies and the various bajs performed prior to opening the dakhma ensure the onward journey of the immortal parts – ruvan, baodangh and fravashi.
For a Zoroastrian, there is no alternative but to go the dokhma way – for his own good.
I would be only too glad were the Jame to give an opportunity to me to write in detail on this topic and end this controversy once and for all.
Regards,
Ervad Marzban Hathiram.
HATHIRAM: THere are Aramghas at various towns in India and abroad there are no dakhmas. We have heard a lot of sermons but though many talk of STRENGTHENING Dokhma system since last two decades, they have done nothing to STRENGTHEN the defunct system except to run down those who are pointing out non disposal of mortal remains by the current ’deficient’ system.
Further,HATHIRAM ought to point out why the Solar Panels were consecrated by Tana ritual.since Solar Panels have become a part of the defuct system.
I have no intent to run down Er Hathiram and his likes but would only ask him whether Ahura Mazda and Sarosh Yezad demote the souls of those Parsee Zoroastrians residing abroad whose call from the Almighty comes. Since decades we have heard impractical and empty talk with no action and with climatic changes and rainy season spanning over five months in a year in Mumbai, even Solar Panels are rendered useless. Enough is enough. Community has been taken for a ride for a very long period, which please note.
SIR! You forgot to write AFTER DEATH-
HATHIRAM: THere are Aramghas at various towns in India and abroad there are no dakhmas. We have heard a lot of sermons but though many talk of STRENGTHENING Dokhma system since last two decades, they have done nothing to STRENGTHEN the defunct system except to run down those who are pointing out non disposal of mortal remains by the current ‘deficient’ system.
Further,HATHIRAM ought to point out why the Solar Panels were consecrated by Tana ritual.since Solar Panels have become a part of the defuct system.
I have no intent to run down Er Hathiram and his likes but would only ask him whether Ahura Mazda and Sarosh Yezad demote the souls of those Parsee Zoroastrians residing abroad whose call from the Almighty comes. Since decades we have heard impractical and empty talk with no action and with climatic changes and rainy season spanning over five months in a year in Mumbai, even Solar Panels are rendered useless. Enough is enough. Community has been taken for a ride for a very long period, which please note.
HATHIRAM: THere are Aramghas at various towns in India and abroad there are no dakhmas. We have heard a lot of sermons but though many talk of STRENGTHENING Dokhma system since last two decades, they have done nothing to STRENGTHEN the defunct system except to run down those who are pointing out non disposal of mortal remains by the current ‘deficient’ system.
Further,HATHIRAM ought to point out why the Solar Panels were consecrated by Tana ritual.since Solar Panels have become a part of the defuct system.
I have no intent to run down Er Hathiram and his likes but would only ask him whether Ahura Mazda and Sarosh Yezad demote the souls of those Parsee Zoroastrians residing abroad whose call from the Almighty comes. Since decades we have heard impractical and empty talk with no action and with climatic changes and rainy season spanning over five months in a year in Mumbai, even Solar Panels are rendered useless. Enough is enough. Community has been taken for a ride for a very long period, which please note.
SIR! You forgot to write AFTER DEATH-
SIR! You forgot to write AFTER DEATH-
@ Contradhongi,
Dakhmas were consecrated but now though Solar Panels are an integral part of the ‘system’ I very much doubt that Solar Panels underwent Tana ceremony.
@ Contradhongi,
Dakhmas were consecrated but now though Solar Panels are an integral part of the ‘system’ I very much doubt that Solar Panels underwent Tana ceremony.
@ Contradhongi,
Dakhmas were consecrated but now though Solar Panels are an integral part of the ‘system’ I very much doubt that Solar Panels underwent Tana ceremony.
I would like Hathiram and those who have identical views that even Buddhist have sky burials which I understand is practiced in Tibet so where is the question of association of our religion alone with this mode of disposal. So please refrain from creating mass hysteria of fear in the minds of members of our community and try to resolve the issue in keeping with principoles of our religion not to pollute the elements. If Hathiram and company cannot resolve this vexatious issue, they should desist from stirring up needless passions.
I would like Hathiram and those who have identical views that even Buddhist have sky burials which I understand is practiced in Tibet so where is the question of association of our religion alone with this mode of disposal. So please refrain from creating mass hysteria of fear in the minds of members of our community and try to resolve the issue in keeping with principoles of our religion not to pollute the elements. If Hathiram and company cannot resolve this vexatious issue, they should desist from stirring up needless passions.
I would like Hathiram and those who have identical views that even Buddhist have sky burials which I understand is practiced in Tibet so where is the question of association of our religion alone with this mode of disposal. So please refrain from creating mass hysteria of fear in the minds of members of our community and try to resolve the issue in keeping with principoles of our religion not to pollute the elements. If Hathiram and company cannot resolve this vexatious issue, they should desist from stirring up needless passions.
I would like Hathiram and those who have identical views that even Buddhist have sky burials which I understand is practiced in Tibet so where is the question of association of our religion alone with this mode of disposal. So please refrain from creating mass hysteria of fear in the minds of members of our community and try to resolve the issue in keeping with principoles of our religion not to pollute the elements. If Hathiram and company cannot resolve this vexatious issue, they should desist from stirring up needless passions.
It is the advocates other modes of disposal who are creating mass hysteria and trying to stir up needless passions. Those who have a problem with the Dokhma system are free to use other systems provided by the government in good numbers. The doongarwadi complex is meant for use exclusively for Khurshed Nashini or exposure to the sun and will remain so.
Where-ever Dokhmas are available, they should be the preferred mode of disposal of the Parsis. Those who do not agree are free to use other modes provided by the government in good numbers in Mumbai city. All those who have questions for Ahura Mazda should get in touch with Him directly. The rainy season was and will be there till the end of this world. There are periods of BRIGHT sunshine during the rainy season too.
It is the advocates other modes of disposal who are creating mass hysteria and trying to stir up needless passions. Those who have a problem with the Dokhma system are free to use other systems provided by the government in good numbers. The doongarwadi complex is meant for use exclusively for Khurshed Nashini or exposure to the sun and will remain so.
It is the advocates other modes of disposal who are creating mass hysteria and trying to stir up needless passions. Those who have a problem with the Dokhma system are free to use other systems provided by the government in good numbers. The doongarwadi complex is meant for use exclusively for Khurshed Nashini or exposure to the sun and will remain so.
Where-ever Dokhmas are available, they should be the preferred mode of disposal of the Parsis. Those who do not agree are free to use other modes provided by the government in good numbers in Mumbai city. All those who have questions for Ahura Mazda should get in touch with Him directly. The rainy season was and will be there till the end of this world. There are periods of BRIGHT sunshine during the rainy season too.
Where-ever Dokhmas are available, they should be the preferred mode of disposal of the Parsis. Those who do not agree are free to use other modes provided by the government in good numbers in Mumbai city. All those who have questions for Ahura Mazda should get in touch with Him directly. The rainy season was and will be there till the end of this world. There are periods of BRIGHT sunshine during the rainy season too.
It is people like you who though aware of our limited numbers want to divide in terms of myself and yourself. Light will never dawn on persons who talk of
strengthening’ the collapsed system that some innovation is very much needed. Solar panels were never a part of Original System. For decade we have heard talk of Aviary but no tangible progress. Why those who ceaselessly talk show some concrete result since they have vast resources of B.P.P. at their disposal.
By saying that ‘All those who have questions for Ahura Mazda should get in touch with Him directly’ Phiroze admits that our High Priests are incapable of answering cogently. By the way. BTW, Phiroze, those who opt for other means of disposal are doing so and do not need a license from you or you type. I am making this stringent remark since the tone and tenor of your remark ‘Those who do not agree are free to use other modes provided by the government in good numbers in Mumbai city’ displays a sense of arrogance as if the Towers were built by your own ancestral family.
It is people like you who though aware of our limited numbers want to divide in terms of myself and yourself. Light will never dawn on persons who talk of
strengthening’ the collapsed system that some innovation is very much needed. Solar panels were never a part of Original System. For decade we have heard talk of Aviary but no tangible progress. Why those who ceaselessly talk show some concrete result since they have vast resources of B.P.P. at their disposal.
By saying that ‘All those who have questions for Ahura Mazda should get in touch with Him directly’ Phiroze admits that our High Priests are incapable of answering cogently. By the way. BTW, Phiroze, those who opt for other means of disposal are doing so and do not need a license from you or you type. I am making this stringent remark since the tone and tenor of your remark ‘Those who do not agree are free to use other modes provided by the government in good numbers in Mumbai city’ displays a sense of arrogance as if the Towers were built by your own ancestral family.
It is people like you who though aware of our limited numbers want to divide in terms of myself and yourself. Light will never dawn on persons who talk of
strengthening’ the collapsed system that some innovation is very much needed. Solar panels were never a part of Original System. For decade we have heard talk of Aviary but no tangible progress. Why those who ceaselessly talk show some concrete result since they have vast resources of B.P.P. at their disposal.
By saying that ‘All those who have questions for Ahura Mazda should get in touch with Him directly’ Phiroze admits that our High Priests are incapable of answering cogently. By the way. BTW, Phiroze, those who opt for other means of disposal are doing so and do not need a license from you or you type. I am making this stringent remark since the tone and tenor of your remark ‘Those who do not agree are free to use other modes provided by the government in good numbers in Mumbai city’ displays a sense of arrogance as if the Towers were built by your own ancestral family.
Is pouring of Bovine Urine, Acid, burying of bones and Solar Panels also a part of ‘time tested – traditional’ system of Khurshed Nashini ? Learn to adjust with times and demonstrate the will to live and let live. No, nobody wants a crematorium at Doongerwadi. There are other methods. If I can recollect rightly, Perhaps you are the same Phiroze, who commended B.P.P. in the matter of “renegade’ Priests and were very vocal about favourable Court verdict. If I mistake not, you had then stated that Courts cannot decide on Religious matters. So9 when you air your ‘tradtional’ views, think of future implications.
If you see the light why don’t you suggest some innovation that does not change the very core of Dokhmanashini assuming that you have the vast resources of BPP at your disposal? I have no problems with those who opt for other means of disposal as long as it is not at the doongerwadi complex. To each their own. Is the Towers built by the ancestral families of those who demand facilities for other modes of disposal there?. BTW The towers were built for those Parsis opting for dokhmenashini ONLY.
Is pouring of Bovine Urine, Acid, burying of bones and Solar Panels also a part of ‘time tested – traditional’ system of Khurshed Nashini ? Learn to adjust with times and demonstrate the will to live and let live. No, nobody wants a crematorium at Doongerwadi. There are other methods. If I can recollect rightly, Perhaps you are the same Phiroze, who commended B.P.P. in the matter of “renegade’ Priests and were very vocal about favourable Court verdict. If I mistake not, you had then stated that Courts cannot decide on Religious matters. So9 when you air your ‘tradtional’ views, think of future implications.
Is pouring of Bovine Urine, Acid, burying of bones and Solar Panels also a part of ‘time tested – traditional’ system of Khurshed Nashini ? Learn to adjust with times and demonstrate the will to live and let live. No, nobody wants a crematorium at Doongerwadi. There are other methods. If I can recollect rightly, Perhaps you are the same Phiroze, who commended B.P.P. in the matter of “renegade’ Priests and were very vocal about favourable Court verdict. If I mistake not, you had then stated that Courts cannot decide on Religious matters. So9 when you air your ‘tradtional’ views, think of future implications.
If you see the light why don’t you suggest some innovation that does not change the very core of Dokhmanashini assuming that you have the vast resources of BPP at your disposal? I have no problems with those who opt for other means of disposal as long as it is not at the doongerwadi complex. To each their own. Is the Towers built by the ancestral families of those who demand facilities for other modes of disposal there?. BTW The towers were built for those Parsis opting for dokhmenashini ONLY.
If you see the light why don’t you suggest some innovation that does not change the very core of Dokhmanashini assuming that you have the vast resources of BPP at your disposal? I have no problems with those who opt for other means of disposal as long as it is not at the doongerwadi complex. To each their own. Is the Towers built by the ancestral families of those who demand facilities for other modes of disposal there?. BTW The towers were built for those Parsis opting for dokhmenashini ONLY.
Great post by Ervadji…..
@Rathestar,
I think, litigation is the only recourse to knock sense in the heads of those who believe in imposing their beliefs on others. You are very correct. Now I recollect that this very person was mocking and using sarcastic language at the height of Court case of banning of two Priests. Some persons learn the hard way.
@Rathestar,
I think, litigation is the only recourse to knock sense in the heads of those who believe in imposing their beliefs on others. You are very correct. Now I recollect that this very person was mocking and using sarcastic language at the height of Court case of banning of two Priests. Some persons learn the hard way.
Great post by Ervadji…..
Great post by Ervadji…..
What other methods are you talking about?. No other methods that change the very core of Dokhma Nashini can be allowed. What future implications are you talking about? I am proud to be a traditional Parsi. I am asking for the same live and let live demonstration from those who have problems with Khurshed Nashini.
What other methods are you talking about?. No other methods that change the very core of Dokhma Nashini can be allowed. What future implications are you talking about? I am proud to be a traditional Parsi. I am asking for the same live and let live demonstration from those who have problems with Khurshed Nashini.
What other methods are you talking about?. No other methods that change the very core of Dokhma Nashini can be allowed. What future implications are you talking about? I am proud to be a traditional Parsi. I am asking for the same live and let live demonstration from those who have problems with Khurshed Nashini.
Dokhma Nashini without the birds of prey is like tree without leaves. As for your pompous statement that no change can be allowed to the core of Dokhma Nashini , is pouring bovine urine, applying acid and solar towers a part of your core of Dokhma Nashini ? Not recognising realities is not a symbol of traditionalism, it reflects a stagnant mind incapable of thinking that our faith like other Religion stipulates quick disposal of mortal remains and in our faith it is expected that mortal remains disintegrate before the Chahrum. Your present defunct and collapsed ‘systyem’ only allows rotting of corpses which is against the the very tenet of being eco friendly. We are supposed to spread fragrance during our life time as well as thereafter. Your defunct ‘system’ only creates stench. Learn to accept realities and do not expect others to followwhat was one an effective system two generations back.
Dokhma Nashini without the birds of prey is like tree without leaves. As for your pompous statement that no change can be allowed to the core of Dokhma Nashini , is pouring bovine urine, applying acid and solar towers a part of your core of Dokhma Nashini ? Not recognising realities is not a symbol of traditionalism, it reflects a stagnant mind incapable of thinking that our faith like other Religion stipulates quick disposal of mortal remains and in our faith it is expected that mortal remains disintegrate before the Chahrum. Your present defunct and collapsed ‘systyem’ only allows rotting of corpses which is against the the very tenet of being eco friendly. We are supposed to spread fragrance during our life time as well as thereafter. Your defunct ‘system’ only creates stench. Learn to accept realities and do not expect others to followwhat was one an effective system two generations back.
Dokhma Nashini without the birds of prey is like tree without leaves. As for your pompous statement that no change can be allowed to the core of Dokhma Nashini , is pouring bovine urine, applying acid and solar towers a part of your core of Dokhma Nashini ? Not recognising realities is not a symbol of traditionalism, it reflects a stagnant mind incapable of thinking that our faith like other Religion stipulates quick disposal of mortal remains and in our faith it is expected that mortal remains disintegrate before the Chahrum. Your present defunct and collapsed ‘systyem’ only allows rotting of corpses which is against the the very tenet of being eco friendly. We are supposed to spread fragrance during our life time as well as thereafter. Your defunct ‘system’ only creates stench. Learn to accept realities and do not expect others to followwhat was one an effective system two generations back.
Mr. Phiroze, You will surely agree that im mountainous areas, Dokhma are more feasible but yet our ancestors established Aramghas which are in use even now in many places. If what is being practiced by way of imposition in Bombay is the ONLY method as suggested by you then do you not think that ecologically it would be more prudent to establish Aviary at hill station close to Bombay?
Mr. Phiroze, You will surely agree that im mountainous areas, Dokhma are more feasible but yet our ancestors established Aramghas which are in use even now in many places. If what is being practiced by way of imposition in Bombay is the ONLY method as suggested by you then do you not think that ecologically it would be more prudent to establish Aviary at hill station close to Bombay?
Mr. Phiroze, You will surely agree that im mountainous areas, Dokhma are more feasible but yet our ancestors established Aramghas which are in use even now in many places. If what is being practiced by way of imposition in Bombay is the ONLY method as suggested by you then do you not think that ecologically it would be more prudent to establish Aviary at hill station close to Bombay?
When are we getting vultures at the doongerwadi property – Mr. Khojestee Mistree ????
When are we getting vultures at the doongerwadi property – Mr. Khojestee Mistree ????
When are we getting vultures at the doongerwadi property – Mr. Khojestee Mistree ????
I propose posthumous body use for medical research.
Its practical and a respectable use of body, which can save lives.
But only if God allows you to do so. I mean.. to try and save lives.
I propose posthumous body use for medical research.
Its practical and a respectable use of body, which can save lives.
But only if God allows you to do so. I mean.. to try and save lives.
I propose posthumous body use for medical research.
Its practical and a respectable use of body, which can save lives.
But only if God allows you to do so. I mean.. to try and save lives.
@Rathestar,
I think, litigation is the only recourse to knock sense in the heads of those who believe in imposing their beliefs on others. You are very correct. Now I recollect that this very person was mocking and using sarcastic language at the height of Court case of banning of two Priests. Some persons learn the hard way.